Mozilla Joins EU Antitrust Case Against Microsoft

What Crap. What vendor would want to include OTHER browsers in their software. I can see it now: You install a fresh OS only to discover that you have to uninstall a bunch of junky third party browsers that are taking up space. Also, how do you choose who's browsers are included? What happens if a year down the road another browser comes out and says that they must be included since MS is still selling that version of the OS as the current version?

I have used Netscape, Mozilla, Firefox, Opera, and of course IE. I keep a copy of FF around for certain webpages/functions, and use IE most of the time. I can control IE via Group Policies for all the users, and I have had "0" problems with the browser. Does anybody think making MS bundle other software is going to help anything?

I wish somebody would realize that forcing a company to include the competition is never going to work. It is like forcing a kid to eat something that he doesn't like. It doesn't help the consumer (you get a half-assed attempt to include other software that most users will not install and just end up taking up space). It will cost MS more (marginally) to include, which would increase the overall price. And how do you decide what browsers to include?

When I first started using Windows, Netscape Navigator was the hottest browser around. I would install a fresh copy of Windows, run IE just long enough to download Netscape, and then use Netscape from then on. This continued until Netscape 4.72 (the last good version that I used). I used it because it was significantly better than IE at the time. I didn't even really use IE until version 5.5 came out, and it was as good or better by then.

In general, I'm a very anti-corporation person. I despise how business swells to such significant size that it begins to eat, destroy and absorb everything in sight, at the discretion of a few pigs in suits.

But this is just ridiculous.

Like the others have stated above, how the hell is Microsoft supposed to decide on which browsers to include?

While I like Firefox (I'm using it at the moment), maybe these companies should program their own operating system, sell the software, and bundle their Browser with it, if they feel Microsoft is bullying them out of the game.

Next on the hit list is Ms Paint and Calculator.

Who said I wanted Their calculator?
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If I were microsoft Id stick it to them and not provide anything. See how they manage to get some browser installed when they got none in a fresh install.

If FF wants their share of the market so bad then they should monopolize like MS. I like IE much better than crappy firefox or others. It's better as far as I can tell. It's the easiest to use and least intrusive plus it's built into Windows which makes it all that much better. I don't mind integration as long as it isnt bloatware. And IE is NOT bloatware. Power to MS for monopolizing Operating systems, DirectX (you have to buy vista to get DX10 +) and browsers. You guys rule.

Last reports I heard FF is still eroding IE's dominance, so I vote dismiss this crap.

Yeah this is just dumb. Tell you what, why don't we just make 6 more versions of windows without IE installed automatically and let the end user decide.

Oh and Baker, if you made installing plug-ins a little easier I might use your Browser, but its a pain, so I use IE and GC. Stop your bitchin.

To the above, it is pretty easy. Windows starts. Windows says "would you like to install a web browser?" User clicks yes. Windows gets www.microsoft.com/listofcompetingbrowsers/current from the web (you don't need a web browser for this! see ftp for my sake) Windows presents a list with internet explorer at the top explaining why the others are just as bad as a virus.

There is no way in hell MS would include the competitions browser in their OS install. The only logical way for them to comply would be to offer no browser period. If MS didnt include Internet Explorer in the Windows installation, then how would any body ever download Firefox?

The problem with Internet Explorer and for some its stronger point (see group policy preferences) is that it is embedded in the system. FF comes bundled with Ubuntu (and most other Linux distribution) and Safari comes bundled with Mac OS X. No objections till now from me.

To explain my self I use Windows XP, Mac OS X and Ubuntu and my personal preference is Firefox as a multiplatform, customizable solution which also supports nicely high resolutions (1920*1200) with the most intelligent scaling. I have used many browsers (IE, FF, Opera, Safari and Chrome) and FF better meets my needs, so FF is my personal preference, like others prefer using Internet Explorer.

The thing that frustrates me is that i cannot uninstall Internet Explorer even though I want to (I can do this for FF in Linux and with Safari in Mac OS X without any hustles) because it is a required component of Windows, even windows update requires it.

So the real problem for me is not that it comes bundled but that it cannot be uninstalled. In my computer running Win XP Internet Explorer is just an other security hole...

IE sucks !!!

As extreme a suggestion as it is, I agree with this. I think the EU just wants to get everything out of MS is can get for the EU.

It is MS`s own Operating system... i don`t understand why would anyone have the guts to make the owner remove something from their own product??? It`s like telling Ferrari to sell their cars without an engine for the buyer to install a Porsche engine. Imo all these Antitrust guys are a bunch of envyous retards. If FF doesn`t like it go and make their own operating system. Btw i`m not an IE user but if i were MS i wouldn`t allow anyone in the world to tell me what to include in my own OS or now and wouldn`t pay anything to anyone. It`s all about politicians in the end ... bunch of retards.

Wow, the longer this goes on the more I want to use IE. The includion of IE into windows is NOT anti competitive, not any more anti competitive than the inclusion of firefox in linux distributions.

I for one want an operating system to come with a browser installed, any browser will do so long as I can download and install other browsers.

Someone PLEASE do something about the EU. They are gouging American Companies with frivolous bullshit and doing it often. Intel and Microsoft need to tell the EU to FUCK OFF. They want to keep up these bullshit lawsuits they won't do business on their continent. Sue their own fucking companies.

Someone should sue Ubuntu for including Firefox. Clearly anti-competitive to only have one browser option. While we are it please sue Apple for including iWorks, iPhoto, iTunes, iChat, and Safari.

Un-fucking-believable.

for god sake what now, they can't win on the merits so it's death by a thousand cuts. they are destroying windows, microsoft should be able to do whatever it want's with windows, let them go off the cliff, if people don't like it they will switch. they are killing windows and xbox, ect. being dumb down to avoid lawsuits.

well said, it only applies to windows because it's like the only thing the anti-microsoft crown have

microsoft with all its cash could sick their lawyers on all these cry babies and take them all out of business long time ago.

Microsoft shoud buy FF and then sack all the managment and put the worker ants to work on making IE better, then bury the name FF, never to be heard of again. hahahahaha.... but seriously... its like everyone else says, its asking a company to take out a part of what it is , ferrari was a great example... There shouldnt be a group that can tell a company what to put in and what not to, if the people dont like it, they will go else where...

Simple minded american, flame all u want but the Comission is right in their call. Imagine this if u will: Between a OS that has everything it needs to run smoothly, small HDD footprind + low system requirements, that u can add YOUR favourite software and one that was every little piece of software that u "might" need, in a single version, from a single vendor, without the option to uninstall it, what would be your choice? The EU doesn't want to include FF, Opera, BSplayer or other type of software to Windows, it never made that claim in the first place, all we want is an operating system that works and gives me choices upon installment. Mr. Tetzchner made that claim but he doesn't reprezent the EU in this matter.

If this happens, from every legal and logical viewpoint MS will have to comply. EU is a HUGE market for MS, unfortunately, and while I wish MS would say no, that is exactly what those bastards want them to do, so they can make Microsoft the villian and force more demands on them when they have to restore their business to the EU. Remember if MS leaves the EU then Europe will be forced to use non-Microsoft products, thereby competing more heavily with Microsoft. That very well could be the beginning of the end for them.

What Microsoft will need to do after this is sue Apple for including Safari. Get back in the Apple browser business and make an IE8 version for Macs. Force Apple to include IE as one of the browsers--oh that'd be awesome

I think the bigger issue has nothing to do with the fact that IE is there by default. The issue (for me at least) is that it cannot be removed if you don't want it. At the exact moment you've finally gotten IE and all its DLLs out, you've just really borked your OS. The number of system-wide exploits that have stemmed from issues that originated within IE are testament to this tight integration.

That is the difference between a linux distro including a browser and MS including a browser. Linux doesn't use the initial install of that browser to force you to keep it. MS does, and that in and of itself is anti-competitive to the browser market. This matters because it means web developers are forced into making their sites comply with IEs half compliant implementation of things like CSS, and not with the standards themselves.

They could never do this if they weren't leveraging their monopoly on the OS market.

Having said all that, I have to agree that many of you have interesting points too. I think it is indisputable that MS is being anti-competitive, but maybe we just need to tell all the other browser makers to shut up and go make their own OS...and put their browser in it. I dunno

What a cack lawsuit. If people don't like whats bundled with MS operating systems, then they can buy a different operating system. Slowly removing all functionality from Windows is not a good thing. Would we all like to go back to the days of using Real Player for video..... Another thing. Less computer literate peoplee (which is most people) prefer consistency, not having to fight with a myriad of different browsers, media players etc.

Maybe the EU will sue MS for including a dictionary with MS Word next?

Hmmm... do all of you work for Microsoft or something? I can't believe a lot of you think IE is awesome. Personally, I don't care about Microsoft forcing IE down people's throats. I think the problem the EU has is that IE is pretty much embedded into the system. It's not as simple of a task removing it from your system. Either way, I don't know why anyone would willingly use IE. It's the worst browser available among all of the popular browsers. It's slow, buggy, and has less features than the competition. And worst of all, it has horrible support for web standards. Which means a lot of web pages are made with just IE in mind, but they look like crap in other browsers. I'm sure it's deliberate on Microsoft's part. Supposedly IE 8 is supposed to be better.

Why do you care if you can`t remove IE from system ? just make FF default browser is not like it reverts your FF default to IE... Windows is MS`s playground it is their doing and they have all the rights in the world to put in whatever they want to put, then comes other company like Mozilla who wants a pices of the action on MS`s own work (windows) do you find it fair that someone will come and tell you what you are allowed to build into your own OS or not? You don`t like it ? go install Unbutu and get the f** out.

The only thing that makes them(EU) look bad, is the demand for a bundled browser alternative, and I agree it is'nt the solution. For me, it is'nt really an anti-competitive problem, but a security and software quality problem. The fact is IE IS not independant of the OS and that is a real issue. The fact it have relations with Windows group policies in an unmanaged environment is a security issue. It actually makes the browser and the OS AT RISK. And most of the IE users surfing freely on the web ARE in an unmanaged environment in the confort of their home. So to the guy who claims this is a strong point cause he can manage group policies for users in whatever shitty company he is working for, they should fire you. It is'nt a valid argument from a general point of view. IE can be pretty secure in a company network behind a secure server with tight server(2003)and client(XP)policies, even more since in a company users(employees) are not suposed to surf the web freely. But stating that IE is geat overall cause of it's tight integration in the OS is just stupid. It bring to light that maybe there should be different browser(IE) intergration in the OS depending the OS use(integration in Windows Business and independance in Windows Home for exemple).

So, the EU Antitrust Commission is feeling the crunch of the financial crisis.

OOH, A FAT CASH COW!!!!ONESHIFT1. It's Microsoft!

Let's go milk that cow of everything it's got, and then kick its ass out of EU!

My friends, EU Commission is the biggest bogus court in the world.

Caring cause of the security risks it exposes and the lack of choice it offers a customer. If tomorrow I told you Yahoo messenger had several security holes a hacker can exploit to remotly excute code on your machine, would you like to have a choice for an alternative messenger? And believe me, IE had, have and will have future security holes, like all software, but it's tight integration in the OS makes it even more dangerous, and you have to wait for a slow Windows update which only comes once a month.

The above laymen responders are really advertising their intelligence, or should I say: lack of it. Bet 99% of them don't even have a passport, speak only 1 language and have their fact constantly foxed.

I agree on one thing: M$ out of the EU.
Crap system from a crap company. Computers are not designed to run operating systems, they should be running applications.The sooner M$ os out of the EU, the sooner other companies will jump on the O/S development train. Innovation big time.

well as in the case of Yahoo messenger you have other options for instant online chat , if you don`t like the integration of IE into Windows then just don`t pay for it and install Linux. you have a big choice . No one is forceing you to install Windows on your system. And don`t get me wrong here i use Opera asa browser and not IE, but i still find it wrong for an organisation to force a software producer what to include into their OS or not. Since 1981 when MS was founded everybody was happy with every new stuff that was included in MSDOS and later with every newer version of Windows, more gadgets and stuff, now some people wants a piece of the pie to make monney and they don`t know how to do it. In the end you have the free will to install Windows or not. Told you above is just like forceing ferrari to build cars without engines for installing later a porsche engine, if you don`t like Ferrari just buy a Porsche and that`s it don`t force a company to build what you want. And from all it seems only EU has this problem wich makes me ashamed that i`m an european.

yea this lawsuit is pretty useless i mean computer vendors like dell and HP provide software that windows does not put on it anyway and the majority of computer uses buy brand name pc's instead of building or letting a computer store build one for them

You can actually uninstall Yahoo messenger. IE does'nt have to actually run to have it's GPO flaws used. I'm all with you on the fact forcing alternative third party software on MS OSes is ridiculous. I do have the choice to use alternative software or OSes. But not everbody does, and Windows possess a huge piece of the market share of OSes which are actually all running on a huge network which is internet and IS a security issue. But I realise I'm getting nowhere there, since IE is'nt the only software running on the Web posing security risks, Windows itself does, anyone remember WormBlaster32? And alot of others does. The SQL standar itself can be really vulnerable if not managed correctly. But all that does'nt chance the fact that IE tight integration is a problem MS should adress. By making an independant and more secure browser, MS can only attract more positive opinion on their side. Making IE multiplatform like Firefox is would be a huge step and a proof IE can be a closed and an independant application. Oh, and I too use Opera, a broswer which really improved on many aspects since the last 2 years.