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This is not a reply, I just wanted to remind, that in March 29, in his "CeBIT 2001 Roundup", Thomas P. wrote:
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Kyro2 4500 is also under testing in our labs right now. Videologic and Hercules/Guillemot were showing their Kyro2-solutions at CeBIT. The manufacturer of this 3D-chip seems to be afraid of us, which is why STMicroelectronics never supplied us with a review sample. We have got a sample now and following my old tradition, I will make sure to scrutinize Kyro2 to find what STMicroelectronics was trying to hide from us.
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14 days later still nothing :-) Clear indirect proof that Kyro2 is performining better than expected :-)

Well I certainly didn't mean that all DX8 game using normal hardwired DX7 hw T&L wouldn't work on the Geforce or Radeon just because the games were using DX8, so if thats what you thought I meant when you originally replied to me then you did misunderstand my post (as I said maybe I should have been clearer about it when I said DX8 HW T&L, a clearer thing to say would have been programable HW T&L but then the only DX8 specific HW T&L is programable), but of course no hard feelings.

Tom's German site have posted their Prophet 4500 review....

http://www.tomshardware.de/graphic [...] index.html

Man I love those 32-bit and FSAA benchmarks. Also the comments regarding NT and Win2K at the end of the article are not correct as the KYRO and KYRO II have excellent support for both these OS's.

I'm not sure I believe this but I would not be surprised. Microsoft wants to protect its investment in the Xbox.

I hope it is not true.

We shall see.

Thanx, pvrrev!!

Well thats your opinion but I don't agree with it entirely myself, I beleive that the aquanox benchmark shows that without programable HW T&L cards are forced to use SW T&L, the quote from Toms really doesn't disprove anything I said, he's basically saying that the Geforce 3 also has hardwired T&L built in so it can use this with games that don't use Vertex Shaders (as in games out now, or games out in the next year before games with vertex shaders really start to come out), I don't think games will have vertex shaders and also a hardwired T&L version, maybe at first but not for too long, eventually with all new cards supporting programable T&L games will move on just like they did when hardwired T&L came along, the difference being that CPU's are programable, they can use vertex shaders while the hardwired HW T&L units can't, companies won't keep releasing games that work with HW T&L but don't have all the effects for very long, especially with increasingly more powerful CPU's being made. Maybe my comment about hardwired T&L being useless when games with vertex shaders come along was a bit over the top and extreme, but certainly the hardwired T&L in Geforce and Radeon cards will not be included in games for long.

No games can really not work on a non HW T&L card, if anyone was stupid enough to make a game that didn't allow SW T&L then a simple driver trick like geometry assist could be added and the CPU could use the games HW T&L engine and it would probably be faster then using a SW T&L engine, anyway to me it makes allot more sense to allow for sw T&L even if your game runs slowly because by the time these games come out people will have far faster CPU's, I'm sure in a year CPU's will be just as fast (if not faster) then the Geforce 2 HW T&L unit, also this is all forgetting that at any decent resolution HW T&L goes out of the window, look at any benchmark and you'll see that a HW T&L card will beat a SW T&L card at 640x480 or 800x600 when neither card is fillrate or mem bandwidth limited, but who plays at those resolution?, once the game goes to 1024x768 the benchmarks level out, go any higher and its the card with the highest fillrate and memory bandwidth (or most efficient fillrate and memory bandwidth) thats going to come out on top and in these cases the HW T&L unit can actually slow the card down by using up precious bandwidth, or use FSAA and again the HW T&L card won't nesassarily win in a HW T&L optimised game unless it has the highest or most efficient fillrate and mem bandwidth.

As for DX8 hw T&L not only being programable, as you said hardwired T&L is a DX7 feature, it can be used in DX8 games but its not a DX8 specific feature, programable HW T&L is the DX8 version, somebody said that the Kyro II would be usless when games started using DX8 features because its stuck with DX7 features and my point is that every card but the Geforce 3 is stuck with DX7 features, so the Kyro II is no different when it comes to DX8 features.

<<<<<<It also seems to fit in to the overall time frame. One year from now means 6 months for ports from the DX8 Xbox to appear. (These games will obviously be written without a software T&L mode and I doubt developers will add one for the PC.)>>>>>>>

The X-Box will be using vertex shaders too, and you think that in 1 year from now X-box game ported over to the PC won't add SW T&L support but will add hardwired T&L support?, I doubt it, with all new cards comming out with vertex shaders hardwired T&L will be fazed out for the simple reason that is is hardwired, at least CPU's are programable and as they get faster they can always be used for things like vertex shaders, thats something that can't be said for hardwired HW T&L.

Teasy, do you think the eventual evolution of gaming graphics will mean that video cards will have a GPU, a CPU and all of system memory? Wouldn't this eliminate many of the inherent bottlenecks in the architecture of a conventional a motherboard with CPU with main memory and video card, on an AGP port, with it's own memory.

I think that "tom's" review was very very positive to the side of kyro
I did use the altavista ...
I don't understand german


But I wonder why there is still only a review in german?
maybe Nvidia is doing something !!!


also there is a new review in anandtech of the new geforce's 2 mx:
http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1453

but they also used kyro 2 in their tests...
what a pittifull attempt of nvidia to stay competetive against kyro II lol

The Kyro wont do very well, because its spelled wrong and the Egyptians have put a curse on it.


<font color=blue><b>Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk?</b></font color=blue>

Go here Nvidia is trying to kill it's competition at birth...

Nvidia doesn´t have fair play they want to rip off our money ... with 600 US $ cards !!!
http://213.219.40.69/12040110.htm

thanks prrev

don't compare nvidia to a ancient GOD

lol

Nvidia is like a BAD childreen with too much power !!!

U Americans r being ripped off! The Asus Card based on the GeForce is £370 in England. Haha!

I'll never buy the Kyro 2. Maybe if I were broke and need a card now but will have enough money to get a better card a couplo month later. But, Otherwise I'm staying away from the Kyro. B4 you say I hate STM or Imagination, I'll tell you I had a Matrox m3D. that was based on the power vr.



<font color=blue><b>Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk?</b></font color=blue>

try to find a kyro 2 review ok?

No I don't think that will ever happen, because really what you've described there is basically a console, and we all know the strong points and weak points of consoles and PC's, on one side you have the console which is all connected much tigher together and runs much faster because of it and all games written for it work flawlessly, but when its too slow the whole thing is thrown away for a new system, no upgrading, then you have the PC were you can do anything, its much more flexible, if you think your graphics card isn't enough for you then you can buy a new graphics card, if your CPU isn't enough for you then you can buy a new CPU, if its still not fast enough then open the case pop on some extra cooling and overclock everything until it is fast enough, on the other hand there sometimes very annoying with there incompatibilities and troubles but people will always want both consoles and PC's, I think we'll simply see faster and faster buses between the motherboard and graphics card, AGPx8 for instance, but with programable HW T&L I suppose its almost as if they are moving a CPU onto the graphics card.

I've seen all the reviews. I've heard from both sides, and thats what mde me decide against the Kyro II.


<font color=blue><b>Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk?</b></font color=blue>

too much frame rate or quality for you ????

Batteries die out to fast.

=
<font color=green>Ran out of bullsh!t to feed to the flies.</font color=green>

well...
my bateries are recharging now...

after I went here:
http://www.fm/7-sphere/

It depends what you are looking for. If are after Pure Power of Graphics, than your best bet is Geforce Card. Here you have to take everything into consideration that you want to have. Geforce cards can only supply you that at present.

If you are looking for perfomance/price ratio and Geforce 2 MX does not satisfy you, then Kyro 2 will do good.

<<<<<<<It depends what you are looking for. If are after Pure Power of Graphics, than your best bet is Geforce Card. Here you have to take everything into consideration that you want to have. Geforce cards can only supply you that at present.

If you are looking for perfomance/price ratio and Geforce 2 MX does not satisfy you, then Kyro 2 will do good.>>>>>>>

I'd say the Kyro II is a direct competitor to the Geforce 2 GTS (appart from it being much cheaper), its performance where it matters (high res/colour depth and FSAA) is ahead of the Geforce 2 GTS. And its got so much to offer in the future, so many people obsess about the hardwired HW T&L in the Geforce and Radeon cards and forget that not every developer wants to shove more and more poly's into there game when they can do so much more with more texture layers, Dot3, EMBM, higher res textures etc, yes just about every game coming out soon will support HW T&L but that doesn't mean they've put anymore poly's in there games, it only means they'll support the use of a HW T&L unit to transform and light there games (I'm sure some will go the high poly route though), an example of what I'm talking about is Serious Sam, thats a game that hasn't looked at massive poly counts but instead its looked at more texture layers (the game uses 3 texture layers all the time and sometimes 4) and making there game look more real by making more complex environments like loads of mountains outside with buildings all over the place and inside rooms full of collums and all sorts of stuff like real buildings are, how many times do you walk into a building and see an empty building like most games are full of?, not often so why are so many games full of these empty rooms? because the game designers care to much about lowering the level of overdraw which is created by frankly stupid graphics card which render everything and then decide what should actually have been rendered afterward......isn't that so bumb?, I mean come on, next time I go to the shops I think I'll follow suite, I'll buy something and then I'll count my money to see if I can actually afford what I'm buying), Serious Sam runs like a dream on the Kyro 1 and II, look at the Anand benchmarks, only the Geforce 3 can best the Kyro II in Serious Sam, with FSAA enabled at 1024x768x32 the Geforce 2 Ultra is left with a bloody nose as the Kyro II still pulls off a playable 30fps, the Kyro II beats every other card appart from the Geforce 3 at all resolutions in Serious Sam (except maybe 640x480 but then who plays that res?), thats the advantage of not having to draw anything thats not going to be seen and also the advantage of being able to put out 8 texture layers in one pass (the Geforce 2 GTS can only do 2 layers in 1 pass), oh and also the advantage of a cleverer method of FSAA, so there is more to the future of games then HW T&L, I know its hard to get out of this HW T&L obsesion, Nvidia have people thinking that HW T&L is everything, its really NOT, in its current form its something that helps performance when the card is not fillrate or memory bandwidth limited just like a faster CPU does, but when a card is mem bandwidth limited how much can a HW T&L or a faster CPU do?, when games are using 5-6 texture layers and massive textures and the GTS is on its knees because its having to pass every pixel to the frambuffer 3 times and its image quality looks like crap because of all those extra passes causing colour problems what will that HW T&L be doing to help that?, it will be wasting the cards precious memory bandwidth by trsnforming geometry faster when the card iself is already memory bandwidth limited and can't make use of the faster transform speed, I'm by no means saying I dislike HW T&L, its something that needs to keep being implimented in graphics cards, but by the time HW T&L is being used that heavily even the Ultra will be a low end card in the peformance stakes because its actual fillrate and memory bandwidth won't be able to keep up with new games, I think over the next 2 years programable HW T&L will come in and people will embrace it, until then HW T&L is just another feature and not the be all and end all.

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Teasy on 04/13/01 10:41 PM.</EM></FONT></P>