Damn it! No full X700 reviews yet!

Well it's midnight out East, I was hoping for something before I went home.

Oh well, guess it'll have to wait until the AM, by which time there'll be dozens!

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! - RED GREEN GA to SK :evil:

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i think its midday out there, maybe later like afternoon/evening.

 :tongue: I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it. 
He who laughs last thinks slowest!

Reply to priyajeet

There's one up on Anandtech now.

<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2214" target="_new">http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2214</A>

HardOCP too:

<A HREF="http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NjY2" target="_new">http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NjY2</A>

Hardly worth providing a link to tom's review, huh?

All out within a few minutes though, do the time these NDAs down to the specific hour relative to a particular timezone?

<A HREF="http://www.hexus.net/" target="_new">http://www.hexus.net/</A> have links to a bunch more reviews on their main page.Edited by PhycoBee on 09/21/04 07:15 AM.

Reply to PhycoBee

My conclusion after reading the Anandtech article: 6600GT is a better card.

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Reply to Spitfire_x86

3 out of 6 games run the x700 faster. [H] has even worse results - they dont even have a x700 to comapre so put a x600 inplace. X600 is slower on all of the games there.

So, based on just 1 anadtech review (which many of you dont like), ATI havent done much or something exceptionally better, and it wasnt expected too, considering X800 XT PE is the only card that defeats Geforce Ultra in a few DX games. In source, apparantly an ATI game, we see the x700 better than the GT, but all the 3 top Nvidia cards beat all ATIs except for X800 XT PE.

This has, and will continue to be a better year for Nvidia. As seen in Anandtechs Halo performance, x700 is worse than the GT, one might see similar results in the upcoming Halo 2.

 :tongue: I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it. 
He who laughs last thinks slowest!Edited by priyajeet on 09/21/04 10:00 AM.

Reply to priyajeet

I was looking at the toms test. Its so ironic, in doom 3, the $200 6600 GT beats/competes the $500 X800 XT PE, when AI is turned off ! That is shamefull.

That AI feature does boost x700 XT ahead of 6600GT at times. I also see a 10cent 5950 beating/competing the X800XT in Unreal ??? wtf ???

In THG test its a 4-4 tie in games. Though Nvidia makes impact more bcos of the better games they win on.

 :tongue: I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it. 
He who laughs last thinks slowest!

Reply to priyajeet

By the way, for the sake of comparison, lets keep games limited to

whoever wins among these two will have some impact.
Call of Duty
Unreal T 2004

Who ever wins among these 4, wins year 2004 battle.
Doom 3
Far Cry
Half Life 2
Halo 2

 :tongue: I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it. 
He who laughs last thinks slowest!

Reply to priyajeet

Quote :

My conclusion after reading the Anandtech article: 6600GT is a better card.

And anyone's conclusion of the FX series after reading an Anand review would have been that it's better than the R3xx series. Anand reviews are pretty useless IMO. [H] really pours over the cards, provides image comparisons and I prefer the overall testing method.

<A HREF="http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/ati_radeon_x700_xt/default.asp" target="_new">FIRINGSQUAD</A> shows a little different picture although surprisingly with the X700XT performing below the GT in the HL2 and CS tests (most of the times). Although neither do very well with HL2/CS, might be the memory holding them back compared to the 256bit cards.

And <A HREF="http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/ati-radeon-x700-games.html" target="_new">X-BIT Labs</A> shows a very detailed look at many games, and once again they are winning and losing in tandem. Interesting the breakdown of the 3Dmk03 tests considering the X700XT only takes Nature, but it is the hardest test.

Both Xbit and FS seem to think driver refinement is needed.

The thing to remember about the FartCry tests is alot of them are still using 1.1 which has all the partial precision visual bugs in the GF series, so I wouldn't equate the two tests as long as there's still image issues like are indicated in the [H] review. Id' prefer they went with the withdrawn 1.2 tests or make mention of the bug. I discount those tests completely, both are close, but really we need a stable and fixed platform before drawing any conclusions. It needs SM3.0 enabled, instancing, etc (even 3Dc).

All in all I'd say it's like the X800/GF6800 debate, you can find wins and losses throughout.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! - RED GREEN GA to SK :evil:

Reply to TheGreatGrapeApe

Most of the benchmarks are nothing spectacular for either party. The one benchie that always sticks out *gulp* is Doom and the NV4x's are staggeringly faster in most configs, although the "A.I." optimisations are giving ATi a sweet boost. I wonder if my 9800 Pro will benefit from A.I...

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Reply to sweatlaserxp

Quote :

I also see a 10cent 5950 beating/competing the X800XT in Unreal ??? wtf ???

Right, at low res. Hmmm that reminds me of something, let's see... uh perhaps the GF4ti4200 beating the FX5900U and R9800Pro at Q3 at low res.

It's not surprising at low res, usually they are quite limited, and likely the optimizations come into play where the other cards are limited. Hey it probably beats an OC'd GF6800U too.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! - RED GREEN GA to SK :evil:

Reply to TheGreatGrapeApe

Quote :

whoever wins among these two will have some impact.

Call of Duty

COD is outdated.

Unreal T 2004

Also outdated. It would be like including CS because it's popular, few people will upgrade for these results (they likely already upgraded).

Quote :

Who ever wins among these 4, wins year 2004 battle.

Doom 3
Far Cry

FartCry doesn't even count until it's patched. Any benchie based on 1.1 is useless. Hopefully 1.3 will come out (or a revised 1.2), and THAT will have a huge impact (but I still won't buy it).

Half Life 2
Halo 2

Agreed (but, is Halo 2 a simultaneous Xbox / PC release, I thought it was going to be delayed on PC by at least 3 months).

To the list I'd add;

Medal of Honour: Pacific Assault

There's supposed to be alot of new stuff in their all new engine. I still haven't had time to try their Demo yet.

Stalker
I'm not optomistic about the visuals (based on the movies), but the gameplay looks good enough, and it will definitely be an issue if either is lacking.

3DMark2005, while a synthetic, it will likely have a big impact on people's view of the cards, especially the nV lines if they show something dazzeling in their feature set (potentially something more impressive with SM3.0 than has been shown to date).

And I'm sure there are a bunch more. Some things are dependant on the way the game plays not just FPS. Halo is a perfect example of that. It's widely been seen as a poorly ported game that plays poorly on PCs. If Halo2 does the same it may not have as big an impact.

The true test of these cards will come in a few weeks when they are really in stores and both ATI and nV have had a chance to 'refine' their drivers.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! - RED GREEN GA to SK :evil:

Reply to TheGreatGrapeApe

agreed abt the games. I was playing safe to keep call of duty/ Ut2004 in loop, bcos was afraid of some harsh comments from a dies hard fan of those.

I would say Fall onwards, the games are entering a new era of engines. So I guess these will decide the cards.

1 thing i m afraid abt Halo 2 is the bridging they do in a Xbox game to make it compatible with PC. Halo 1 fucke*d that up and even gearbox told not to use certain modes. Hope thats not the case with Halo 2.

 :tongue: I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it. 
He who laughs last thinks slowest!Edited by priyajeet on 09/21/04 07:21 PM.

Reply to priyajeet

My personal opinion is that of a disappointed one. Although you raise good points, if the hardware sites decide to not go with A.I. in their tests for more apples-to-apples comparisons, the X700XT may really have a hard time. After all, ATi banks on the fact they could consider these regular new driver optimizations without user control of enabling them, ya know? Suppose they were integral to Catalyst 4.10. That would make the X700XT quite a player, right? But even then it lacks with it, and if they go bench the X700s without A.I., it'll take ATi some new and more seriously thought out (not sure they can still squeeze that much that easily anymore after A.I.) optimizations, ones that are integral to Catalysts.

And yes, when reminded of the X700PRO preview tests, I am also reminded of the odd new results the X700XT gives. It is higher clocked, but yet it doesn't contend well at all. In the preview, we saw the PRO giving the 6600GT enough of a hard time to say that the XT might actually go much further than needed. Now is the total opposite, it NEEDS to go much further than needed!

On THG, I get the vibe the 6600GT overall did better too. Anyone else felt that?

Additioanlly, I just don't believe the release cards will be any different, on account the 4.10s seem pretty final according to THG's tests. (hey, they used them didn't they?)
So in the end, I am left with what I had been feeling for a while now, that the R4xx series are just not suitable for me. I am now almost convinced to go for a geForce (again) this New Year. The X800XT is powerful, but the 6800Ultra is not leaving it a chance to breathe a lot. And anything below the X800XT is just not good enough. The X800PRO IMO sucks. At first it sounded like an excellent mid-high end competitor, but the GT just beats it too well and costs the same IIRC, and the X700XT doesn't leave me much room for appreciation anymore.
I did appreciate the fact the X700 serie isn't ranging from high to castrated, but more like from high to low end. The X700 isn't sucky by all means. I'm happy to see it doing this good against the 6600. Hopefully we'll see a good retail shelf pricing.

I honestly now have regained some serious respect towards nVidia too. While ATi has a very considering and awesome driver team with leaders that have a great vision of consumer-company teamwork relationship, nVidia has really cleaned their act up, and I barely hear of any cheating on their part to achieve the geForce 6 performance. And their new 6600GT had left me very impressed and even surprised the nVidia benchmarks weren't lying. Company-specific PR stunts usually are full of lies or overly ideal truths, but this time it was spot on, like, literally. (42FPS in DOOM III on High Quality 1600*1200 as promised, and even better at 1024*768 4X FSAA 8X Aniso High Quality than the PR presentation results)
So unless ATi has something hidden until Xmas time, I'm batting for the green side again. This time last year I'd have called myself crazy. :eek:
Times change fast don't they.

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<A HREF="http://www.lochel.com/THGC/album.php" target="_new">The THGC Photo Album revision Eden, faster updated than ever before!</A>Edited by Eden on 09/22/04 00:39 AM.

Reply to eden

Halo 2 is never coming to pc...this has been said many time by bungie and microsoft...

Click <A HREF="http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/you.html" target="_new">HERE</A> if you realy are an idiot.Edited by coylter on 09/22/04 01:20 AM.

Reply to coylter

I'm still not sure that we've seen all there is to see, but really looking at the Xbit reviews and such in depth it's far from being lopsided. I'm still interested in the results from something more vertex sensitive like X2, since the X700 has more vertex engines. Either way I think that the mid-level is respectable so it'll still be a preference issue for most.

Quote :

Times change fast don't they.

True but not fast enough for some. In reality we all expected the next set of cards from nV to do well, they pretty much had to to keep them competitive, another round of FXs wou;d've been too damaging IMO.

The X800s aren't the FXs by any means but they do have their weakneses.

Funny thing though is it all comes own to what you look at. Alot of people still say the GF6800U is outperforming, yet more benchies show the oppsodite when you look at more an more games. So it really comes down to what you play.

Look at this <A HREF="http://" target="_new">PNY GF6800U review from DriverHEaven</A> from the other day. I wouldn't be left with the impression that the GF6800U is exclusively dominant, actually the oppsite, but these are different tests than the norm, but is that also something to consider if you don't play just the benchmarked games.

So despite being out for months we still don't have a complete picture of even the GF6800/X800 performanc,e although the X800Pro really is a little weak compared to the GT, if priced better it would be better than the GF6800vnilla, but it just can't compete about 80% of the time with the GF6800GT. There were rumours of a 16pipe card to come between the XT and the PRO that would try to compete with the GT, but if we haven't seen it yet, then it's a little late in the game to be talking another 16 pipe card when they can't get enough XT and XTPEs to market.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! - RED GREEN GA to SK :evil:

Reply to TheGreatGrapeApe

I was reading over at the B3D forums. I was surprised to hear many folks there have/had both a X800pro and a 6800GT. While I believe the 6800GT to provide more for the same buck, it seemed many folks there preferred the IQ of their X800 over the 6800GT. Enough so to make up for the extra fps in many games. 6X AA was also raved as being far Superior to NV's 4X. I'd be happy with either card, but to me it seems we would have read about lopsided IQ comparisons if they existed. And is 6X AA really playable on most games without lowering the resolution too much? I'd hunt up a link, but I'm out of time. :tongue:

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Reply to pauldh

I have to ask this question.
What exactly does one mean when he or she(in some cases) talks of game IQ.

I mean, if radeon x800 owners feel there game IQ is better, what are they comparing with ? Have they tried a Nvidia and say - ok in this scene, heres the IQ diff ?

What exactly is IQ ? is the the AI ? or how the enviroment reacts in real time ? someone gotto explain.

 :tongue: I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it. 
He who laughs last thinks slowest!

Reply to priyajeet

Counter Strike tests at FiringSqad, show ATI havent done much to improve their cards. That game was supposedly an ATI game. But in all their tests its performs lower than the 6600GT. I guess, if earlier tests of x700pro with 256 MB Ram gave the GT a good competition, then we ought to have more ram, than less with higher speed.

 :tongue: I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it. 
He who laughs last thinks slowest!

Reply to priyajeet

Quote :

6X AA was also raved as being far Superior to NV's 4X.

Actually that would be ATI-6X versus nV-8X as nV calls it (2XSS x 4XMS).

Check this <A HREF="http://techreport.com/reviews/2004q3/radeon-x700xt/index.x?pg=25" target="_new">TechReport Review Segment</A> that looks at the AA situation you refer to. Same conclusion.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! - RED GREEN GA to SK :evil:

Reply to TheGreatGrapeApe

Quote :

then we ought to have more ram, than less with higher speed.

I completely disagree. I'd prefer faster ram at 128mb than slower ram at 256mb. Even now the impact is limited. Heck I'd prefer 128mb of 256bit memory running at 350mhz than 256mb of 128bit memory running at 550mhz. I think they need to decide when they are going to abandone 128bit for the top of the mid-range, as it's running out of room fast.

I think if anything you're equating a test with the GF6600GT and the old driver versus the GF6600GT with the new optimized drivers. And CS being an ATI game, no since the CS source code came out it's not showing the disparity that the HL2 Video Stress Test shows, that's the one that still favours ATI, and even then it was more of an issue with the FX versus R3xx than the current capable generation of nV cards.

They could put 512mb of memory on and it would do little to boost perofmrance compared to an extra 100mhz effective or actual boost to the memory. Even slowing it down and widening the bus would be better than simply more memory IMO.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! - RED GREEN GA to SK :evil:

Reply to TheGreatGrapeApe

Not sure if this Gamer's De(s)pot review is truely with Catalyst 5.1 drivers (as the reviewer states) or simply 4.10 drivers, but the PRO at regular speeds bests the <A HREF="http://www.gamers-depot.com/hardware/video_cards/ati/x700/pro/003.htm" target="_new">GF6600GT in CS</A> here (and at low res. 128mb vs 256 would mean nada), and as we are seeing most review using FartCry with patch 1.2 (which gets rid of the partial precision/anomalies seen at [H]) <A HREF="http://www.gamers-depot.com/hardware/video_cards/ati/x700/pro/005.htm" target="_new">the X700Pro does ok against the GF6600GT</A> and it also does ok against it at high res in UT2K4.

So really to me, these benchies are all over the place. I'm looking forward to FiringSquad's potential CPU scaling tests for the X700XT/PRO so we can compare to those of the GF6600GT they ran last week, and see how the differences are affected by the system they are in.

I doubt we've seen the last of this battle by a long shot.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! - RED GREEN GA to SK :evil:

Reply to TheGreatGrapeApe

I never mentionned anything about Halo 2.

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Reply to eden

IQ = Image Quality.

Everything ranging from texture sharpness to color vividness, to mipmap quality to trilinear filtering quality, to the actual IQ improvement tools, antialiasing and anisotropic filtering quality.

Rating a card's IQ becomes very easy when testing with IQ improvement tools, but is harder when both contend on the same visual degree, without IQ enhancements. You then have to look close on different segments of an image, and try to see where textures fall short of sharpness on a card, and where there are polygons that are somehow not as well rendered. IQ is basically the quality of the image displayed, really.

Tools in Photoshop have helped discover a lot about disparities lately, but in my opinion, you need a good visual difference to qualify a card as having real IQ troubles. A small different, almost unnoticeable during gameplay, in one game, is not enough to make that card invalid for competition. The FXs last year however, had that around the board with their cheaptimizations. The Radeons had little trouble though.

Now the tables are just equal it seems, and we're back to AA and Aniso IQ comparisons as the main decisive factor in which has better quality output.

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Reply to eden

Quote :

Actually that would be ATI-6X versus nV-8X as nV calls it (2XSS x 4XMS).

Seems like a classic True vs Simulated, wouldn't you say as well?
True is often the best, and though simulated results are quite close, pedants will always want the real thing. 6x AA seems like true antialiased figures, as in, filtering the actual 6x amount, over a mixture of 2x mode and 4x mode, each different from the other. Obviously it will be more messy.

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Reply to eden

Well, after reading some of your well layed out points and some of the news out today here, I guess I will suspend judgement for another month or so, until the cards get to mature. While my initial impression remains, that the X700XT is "weak", I will be patient for a little until maybe there is more to the performance than we know.

It still seems like I will end up with an nVidia this New Year. But God, who knows.

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Reply to eden

Thanks for that. I really confused IQ with AI. I considered IQ to be intellectual quetioniare kinda thing.

 :tongue: I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it. 
He who laughs last thinks slowest!

Reply to priyajeet

I was asuuming the same amt of bits.
So what would you choose if this was a possible scenario:

128mb of 256bit memory running at 350mhz
OR
256mb of 256bit memory running at say 250mhz

Also as two friends have asked me - what would u recommend now for a sub $200 card - considering they are playing Doom3/HL2 etc.

 :tongue: I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it. 
He who laughs last thinks slowest!Edited by priyajeet on 09/23/04 00:31 AM.

Reply to priyajeet

The main thing for me right now is that all the reviews seem to be mixing drivers, versions of games, etc.

LARS was pressed for time according to his details, so I can understand the lack of in-depth IQ comparisons and such. But if it's well known that FartCry w/ patch 1.1 has issues, then stop benching with it if you don't want to use the withdrawn patch. Seriously. Seeing the issue still there in [H]'s review just makes me think, WTF, did everyone else miss this when they benchmarked? Do they simply run the benchies and go make a sandwich? Sure I do that for the Catalyst review, but I'm comparing card A to card A for a driver speed comparison (like I have time for tons of image tests), and this isn't my JOB! But how can you miss <A HREF="http://www.hardocp.com/image.html?image=MTA5NTcwNTA3OVFmNkd3NmVTWHRfNV82X2wuanBn" target="_new">THIS</A>

It's not major, but look at all the 1.2 patch cards, and suddenly voila the tables are turned, so something is going on. And according to a few reviewers SM3.0 features are enabled in Patch 1.1 with the latest drivers, yet the instancing for the Radeon series is not, so what's up with that. By now I've seen enough reviews and enough examples of the GF6600 winning one benchie here, then losing the same one there (even to the X700Pro). That I would say that the true test is once the drivers and games are mature. I'm also a little sick of reviewers using BETA Forceware drivers, yet not even using te Latest Catalyst drivers from ATI's site, let alone their new Betas. Look at Sudhain's review it's the CAT 4.8 against the Forceware 65s? WTF!?!

I also find it funy to see reviews with COD, SeriousSamSE, and D3 in the same review, then 3Dmk01/03, Aquamark, and then 2 DX games, and then the reviewer says that the GF6600 does better in the actual games, but the X700 does better in Synthetic benchmarks, as if there's no OpenGL bias. How can you have the majority of the review OpenGL, when they represent a minority of the games?

And while there's been alot of talk about this or that, look at this <A HREF="http://www.computerbase.de/artikel/hardware/grafikkarten/2004/atis_radeon_x700-serie/1/#einleitung" target="_new">ComputerBase</A> review and tell me if some of the results don't fly in the face of others, and that things aren't crystal clear. Sure HALO and D3 are the same, but COD switches winners at high res, and the same happens for FartCry with AA/AF.

I don't know, I just don't find alot of the reviews up to the usual standards. [H] was it's typical thorough self, Xbit was great too, FiringSquad was good, I found Lars' review under par, but that was likely due to the rush, GamersDepot was mediocre as usual but they did OC the PRO which was different than many. HEXUS added some interesting test including my personal ppet Rthdribl (which didn't show any of the nV cards well), they also included the HDTV test which is the first time I've seen the GF6800 bug exposed. But all in all there are very few reviews I'd say have met the quality of the top of the line cards in either effort to test alot of things, or even effort to ensure good testing conditions. I'll wait for Digit-Life (Ixbit) to add to what's there, but so far XbitLabs comes out as the most detailed, and even then I wonder how many people actually read it and noticed that the X800 and R9800 results were somewhat handicapped by their platform (AMD 3400 vs P4 3.6 & PC3200CL2.5 vs DDR2 @ 533mhz), so relating those doesn't really give apples to aples (especially since they are also running CAT 4.8). Anywhoo, personally the one common thread is that everyone was rushed to get their review out (even Xbit need help from ComputerBase), once again speed being more important than accuracy or integrity. Not really impressed. I hope those who come out over the next week take the time to do it right, instead of simply looking to declare a winner (to boil it down for people not even interested enough to read the whole review in the first place, just it a Kick-Ass award or not, don't make me read!) , or also something they can give a rating to so they can start pimping that award in Ads. I wanna see someone do it right, not simply fast. That being said I guess I want it both ways as the title of this thread indicates. :lol:

Quote :

It still seems like I will end up with an nVidia this New Year. But God, who knows.

Ok, how long has it been now? :tongue:

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! - RED GREEN GA to SK :evil:

Reply to TheGreatGrapeApe

Quote :

Ok, how long has it been now?

LOL!

Well, unless you thought I was saying God knows in regards to not sure if I'm buyin' a card or not, I did say I will (well, almost 100% sure), but that who knows, maybe not an nVidia as I'm almost 100% sure of.

Those Computer Base tests seem to show the 6600GT doing very well. The X700XT had its impressive moments, especially beating the 6800 too. But I didn't count the total wins of each.

You point out a valid thing. If what you say is true of other reviews (I really have no time to read other than THG's reviews), then I can see how much confusing it must be to declare a winner. I think the 6600GT, for sure, delivered as promised by nVidia, in their PR benchmarks. THG proved that right to the actual frame. And it did better too. But how far does it extend is again put into question as the drivers and hardware itself affect the results.

Aye, mais quelle confusion!

Quote :

but COD switches winners at high res, and the same happens for FartCry with AA/AF.

Yeah but I thought those things happened. Ya know, card's drivers not fully worked, some high resolution tests yeild problematic relative performance, etc. I wasn't overly surprised with any odd results in CB's review.

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Reply to eden

MOH Pacific Assault You can butt end the japs with any of your rifles. They fall dead about 10 feet. Jap MG nest I used it to kill alot of japs but got killed by bayonet. Ran out of ammo. Plus the big 50 cal MG to knock out Jap planes. Until a bomb blows you away. Graphics look good. But I'm using TI4200.

Reply to HardWareBoss

Link no work!!!!!! :frown:

Reply to HardWareBoss

Quote :

MOH Pacific Assault You can butt end the japs with any of your rifles. They fall dead about 10 feet. Jap MG nest I used it to kill alot of japs but got killed by bayonet. Ran out of ammo. Plus the big 50 cal MG to knock out Jap planes. Until a bomb blows you away. Graphics look good. But I'm using TI4200.

Wow LMAO, in your history in this forum, that must have been the longest post I've ever seen by you Hardware Boss! :lol:

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Reply to eden

What link isn't working?

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Reply to eden

Forum Graphic & Displays : Graphics Cards - Damn it! No full X700 reviews yet!

Please mind