Must a Palm app have color, icons and tree-views to be mar.. - Page 2

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Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,uk.comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

Bill wrote:
> Why in the world would anyone want to scroll though pages of forwarded
> message which lazy bottom posters fail to properly trim to find a "me
> too" at the bottom?

The real issue isn't top- or bottom-posting. The issue is failing
to properly trim. (Just like you failed to. Which didn't help
your credibility, by the way.)

In both cases, skipping the text (assuming a priori knowledge that
the text to be skipped contains nothing useful in it) can be dealt
with. For bottom-posters who don't trim properly, hit "end"
(or equivalent "go to end of post" command) then read. For
top-posters who don't trim, read and then hit "next" (or equivalent
"go to next article without paging through the rest of this one"
command).

However, just because there's a relatively convenient coping
strategy[1] doesn't change the fact that failing to trim is rude.
Usenet posts are written once and read many, many times. So it
makes sense for the one writer to take a little extra care and
save the many readers a little bit of time and hassle each.

- Logan

[1] in most newsreaders -- in others, either "end" or "next" or
both (as described above) might not exist.

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,uk.comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

Logan Shaw wrote:
>
> Bill wrote:
> > Why in the world would anyone want to scroll though pages of forwarded
> > message which lazy bottom posters fail to properly trim to find a "me
> > too" at the bottom?
>
> The real issue isn't top- or bottom-posting. The issue is failing
> to properly trim. (Just like you failed to. Which didn't help
> your credibility, by the way.)
>
> <snip>

Then there's mixed-posting (top AND bottom)...

When I see one of those, they're usually so screwed up,
it's on to the next post.

Notan

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,uk.comp.sys.palmtops,news.software.readers (More info?)

Gregg Woodcock wrote:

> "Logan Shaw" <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:J0TLd.100241$Ta2.33625@fe2.texas.rr.com...
>
>>So obfuscate it a little bit. Choose an event from the range of
>>user events random at startup time. Then when the user registers,
>>send that event and make all the registration-triggered changes
>>in response to this event. The cracker then won't even have a
>>fixed event number to search for, and the event-sending and
>>event-handling code will be in totally different parts of the
>>executable.

> None of that will work.
> BY FAR the hardest part of cracking is finding a marker.
> Once the marker is identified, the code path is always easily traced.

So, you have nothing in your code that responds differently before
or after registration? Does something *somewhere* have to check
the registration status?

The point is, unless the registration affects nothing, the cracker
can always observe what it affects, then find code related to that,
and then start tracing from there. You're never going to prevent
this. You can make it more difficult, but even that is hard.

Also, there are tons of big-time commercial (shareware) apps out
there for the Palm that don't worry about this and don't seem to
have significant problems with pirating. (Most customers just
check Handango and PalmGear and wouldn't even know where to look
for pirated stuff.)

- Logan

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,uk.comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 00:15:35 GMT, Logan Shaw
<lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote:

[ . . .]
>
>The real issue isn't top- or bottom-posting. The issue is failing
>to properly trim. (Just like you failed to. Which didn't help
>your credibility, by the way.)
>
[ . . ]

I am surprised that you'd expect credibility in this argument. It is
about Usenet after all.

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,uk.comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi Gregg,

I am not lazy. I actually set my e-mail/news client to top post on
purpose. I like to see the response immediately. It is a pain in the
neck to start scrolling for each message to receive the response. I
have 14 news groups that I monitor, and I quite often miss messages
because the response is interspersed or at the bottom of the
previous message.

I don't have the time for all of the scrolling that non-top-posting
calls for.

Ciao . . . C.Joseph

That which a man buys too cheaply . . .
He esteems too lightly


Gregg Woodcock wrote:
> "David A. Desrosiers" <hacker@gnu-designs.com> wrote in message
> newsan.2005.02.01.20.19.59.213222@gnu-designs.com...
>
>>On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 13:47:11 -0600, Gregg Woodcock wrote:
>>
>>
>>>New Yanoff is hard-coded to do so and also enforces limited inclusion of
>>>quoted text by forcing the user to select some text or none is included.
>>
>>As long as it isn't enforced, and people can intersperse their
>>replies across existing messages, just like its supposed to be, that's
>>probably acceptable.
>>
>>If it is hard-coded, and unchangeable, that's a blocker.
>
>
> Our plan to fight top-posting in a reasonable manner is as follows:
> 1: The placement of the signature is hard-coded to be at the bottom of all
> included quoted text (we would consider modifying this for the "forward"
> operation but currently haven't).
> 2: The initial placement of the cursor is hard-coded to be immediately
> before the signature delimiter (i.e. between the quoted text and .sig).
> 3: If no text is highlighted, no text is included (i.e. it does not by
> default include all the text in this case).
>
> The user is free to manually highlight all the original text and regardless
> of how much text is highlighted before the fup/re is initiated, he is
> subsequently allowed to move the cursor and insert/move/modify text anywhere
> and any way he chooses (e.g. move the signature to the top or whatever).
>
> I am a firm believer that most top-posters are more lazy than they are rude
> or desirous of top-posting and this will probably eliminate 90% or more of
> it originating from within our app (and would eliminate 50% or more of ALL
> top-posting if google-groups/Outlook/OE would implement these 3 details).
>
> These 3 details guide the user towards highlighting only the section(s) of
> text on which he wants to comment (after all, highlighting more text takes
> more time/effort) and also guides him to put his 1-liner at the bottom where
> it belongs. Personally (this thread excepted but this article included) I
> usually have 1 thing to say about 1 portion of the message and end up
> highlighting 1 section and adding one bottom-posted comment. I think this
> is the vast majority of what should be happening in Usenet/email anyway.
>
> In fact, I think these 3 details should be MANDATORY for GNKSA approval (at
> a minimum they should be in the strongly-encouraged category).
>
>
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Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,uk.comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

C.Joseph Drayton <kalek1@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> I am not lazy.

Really? From what I can see below, laziness is *exactly* what you display,
since you can't be bothered to scroll:

> I actually set my e-mail/news client to top post on
> purpose. I like to see the response immediately. It is a pain in the
> neck to start scrolling for each message to receive the response. I
> have 14 news groups that I monitor, and I quite often miss messages
> because the response is interspersed or at the bottom of the
> previous message.
>
> I don't have the time for all of the scrolling that non-top-posting
> calls for.

Fair enough. And we don't have time for you. *plonk*

[lots of unneccessary quoting including full sigs deleted]
--
*Art

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,uk.comp.sys.palmtops,news.software.readers (More info?)

* Gregg Woodcock Wrote in news.software.readers:

> I am a firm believer that most top-posters are more lazy than they
> are rude or desirous of top-posting and this will probably
> eliminate 90% or more of it originating from within our app (and
> would eliminate 50% or more of ALL top-posting if
> google-groups/Outlook/OE would implement these 3 details).

Great, so now we have to weed through pages and pages of quoted text
for the: ME TOO!

Bzzzzzt. Thanks for playing.

Bottom posting is JUST AS BAD as top posting and you cant fix this with
GNKSA.

--
David

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,uk.comp.sys.palmtops,news.software.readers (More info?)

on Thu, 3 Feb 2005 08:38:19 -0600, Gregg Woodcock wrote:

> 2: The initial placement of the cursor is hard-coded to be immediately
> before the signature delimiter (i.e. between the quoted text and .sig).

Baaaaad idea. I prefer my cursor at the start of quotes so I can snip
irrelevant stuff and interleave my replies between quotes - placing cursor
at the bottom would require me to first move it up (or to bottom-post,
which I hate even more than top-posting).

FUT nsr

--
begin .sig
< Jernej Simon+AQ0-i+AQ0- ><>+Jco-<>< jernej simoncic at isg si >
end

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,news.software.readers (More info?)

SINNER wrote:
> Great, so now we have to weed through pages and pages of quoted text
> for the: ME TOO!

The thing is, if people don't trim, then regardless of whether they
top-post or bottom-post, you still end up wading through pages and
pages of quoted text. The only difference is whether you have to do it
before or after the other text.

> Bottom posting is JUST AS BAD as top posting and you cant fix this with
> GNKSA.

IMHO, what newsreaders need to do is what they used to do years ago:
they should examine the post you are about to make, and then if you
have typed less text than you have quoted, they should warn you that
you need to trim more.

They used to have this warning that not trimming was a big waste
of bandwidth. These days they should probably use different language
and just say something like "while in certain other modes of
communication it's considered OK to quote the entire message you're
replying to, when posting to Usenet the polite thing to do is to
remove most or all of the quoted text, only leaving text if it's
essential to make it clear what you're referring to". Actually,
it should probably be something more concise than that, but that's
the general idea.

In the old days, the news posting software didn't just warn you: it
flat out refused to post the article if there was too much quoted
text. These days, you couldn't go quite that far (people would just
install some other software), but it would at least help people
understand that, yes, there is a set of standard etiquette on Usenet,
and not trimming is considered bad. Hopefully people would get
in the habit of trimming just to avoid wasting time seeing that
warning. :-)

- Logan

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,uk.comp.sys.palmtops,news.software.readers (More info?)

Thomas Zehetbauer wrote:
> Realize that we live in a world with a "throw more hardware at it"
> attitude. Writing a simple letter already takes several times more
> resources than were used flying to the moon. I too care more for a decent
> user interface than for the required memory and processing power.
>
> For example I just sent a complaint to the makers of Chatopus because they
> throw all contacts in one big list instead of grouping them in a tree view
> like almost all other instant messengers do.
>
> Tom
>

Gregg,

Since we began NY beta testing, more than one and a half year ago, I've
been telling you that you should add "eye candy" features to atract
customers. NY is such a great piece of software, but It doesn't looks
like that until you are used to it.

I mean: someone who is wondering if reading newsgroups in a small PDA
screen is worth a try, then makes some research and finally gets to NY
website, will probably think "Ouch!..thats ugly...I won't spend a minute
messing around with that software". But lots of people manage their
email with programas like Versamail, Snappermail etc., because they are
nice to use. Do you get my meaning?

I would not want you to lose lots of time just making cosmethic
enhancements, but maybe some use of color (read/unread, or different
colors for each line, as ledge coloring...), some (hi-res) icons, some
kind of collapsable/expansible view for threads (this is not
cosmethic...this would be a great enhancement in terms of usability an
user experience)...

That would somewhet improve NY look, would atract more customers, then
you will be able to continue developing NY (both technicall features and
cosmethic features)...

If people want something, you have to give them what they want. Thats
what the whole market thing is all about. You should not even suggest
them that they are wrong! Just do it.

Just my two cents!

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,uk.comp.sys.palmtops,news.software.readers (More info?)

Gregg Woodcock <woodcock@SonLightSoftware.com> wrote:

> It is not just user/HW cycles but also design cycles. The big feature for
> 4.0 was to have been SSL which obviously will have much more serious benefit
> for everyone but now it looks like we are going to "waste" our time
> colorizing with mostly-redundant fluff because that (hopefully) will
> generate greater eye-appeal and sales. It would seem it is better to be
> pretty than it is to be smart!

SSL is pretty much fluff IMO -- not used by all that many people.

--
JBM
"Everything is futile." -- Marvin of Borg

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,uk.comp.sys.palmtops,news.software.readers (More info?)

Well, in Canada, the ISP owned by Bell (sympatico.ca) has recently gone to
'enhanced' mailboxes which are SSL. Which means that tens of thousands of
users MUST be able to access them.

This caused **significant** issues in our household where my wife had a
tungsten W which couldn't handle ssl in the o/s.
She had to dump it for a treo 600 which can deal with it since she needs to
get her email while sh'es in Europe, US and New Zealand.



--
David Nimon
dnimonREMOVE@##sympatico.ca

--------------------------------
>> Gregg Woodcock <woodcock@SonLightSoftware.com> wrote:
>>
>> SSL is pretty much fluff IMO -- not used by all that many people.
>

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Marek Stanìk <marekdotstanek@dont.bother.to.spam> wrote in
news:cud2q9$1dr2$1@ns.felk.cvut.cz:

> David Nimon napsal(a):
>> Well, in Canada, the ISP owned by Bell (sympatico.ca) has recently
>> gone to 'enhanced' mailboxes which are SSL. Which means that tens of
>> thousands of users MUST be able to access them.
>>
>> This caused **significant** issues in our household where my wife had
>> a tungsten W which couldn't handle ssl in the o/s.
>> She had to dump it for a treo 600 which can deal with it since she
>> needs to get her email while sh'es in Europe, US and New Zealand.
>
> You ever considered switching to another wife? :-)

That's a *very* expensive option. With women, the acquisition costs are
high, the maintenance costs are even higher, but the disposal costs are
ruinous.

--
Regards,

Stan

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." B. Franklin

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 05:01:24 GMT, Gregg Woodcock wrote:

> My plan to save the world:
> more Jesus, less government!

Sorry, but it looks like you're getting more of both.

Would less of both be better, worse, or somewhere between?

--
My plan to save the world:
Nickel cigars,
A chicken in every pot,
More politicians in chains,
And a Palm in every pocket!

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,uk.comp.sys.palmtops,news.software.readers (More info?)

Gregg Woodcock <woodcock@SonLightSoftware.com> wrote:

> Our plan to fight top-posting in a reasonable manner is as follows:
> 1: The placement of the signature is hard-coded to be at the bottom of all
> included quoted text (we would consider modifying this for the "forward"
> operation but currently haven't).
> 2: The initial placement of the cursor is hard-coded to be immediately
> before the signature delimiter (i.e. between the quoted text and .sig).
> 3: If no text is highlighted, no text is included (i.e. it does not by
> default include all the text in this case).

I know I'm coming into this a bit late, but you might consider.....

4: Add option to hide/mute quoted text.
5: Add option to scroll past quoted text.

This has the advantage of being "eye-candy" (of a sorts) AND satisfying
those that don't wish to view quoted text. Given the limited screen
real estate for a hand held device, both options seem quite desirable.

(BTW -- if you add an option to hide the quoted text, then when quoting,
unless there is a selection, the entire article, including the hiden
text, should be quoted).

--
JBM
"Everything is futile." -- Marvin of Borg