A64 3000+ K8T800 or P4 630 i925X?

I've been reading posts saying I'd get more bang-for-the-buck with and AMD setup than a similarly priced Intel setup, so I'm looking into it.

The CPU/board combinations I listed in the subject line seem to be similarly priced as near as I can tell. However, when I compare them at <A HREF="http://www23.tomshardware.com/index.html?modelx=33&model1=64&model2=112&chart=21" target="_new">http://www23.tomshardware.com/index.html?modelx=33&model1=64&model2=112&chart=21</A>, it looks like they perform pretty equally with games and the P4 630 finishes quite a bit higher than the A64 3000+ on video encoding.

Also, what's the difference between socket 754 and 939?

Again, I've always been an Intel guy but am looking for an excuse to switch to AMD. Can someone please explain this to me?

Thanks!

Tim

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What's your price ramge? Go with the 939 for AMD.

Edited by HardwareBoss on 10/22/05 03:45 PM.

Reply to HardWareBoss

Quote :

it looks like they perform pretty equally with games

That was hard to rig. Every other site has the Amd 10% or better, in games.
As far as encoding goes, where the files are set up nicely for SSE2, the prescott wins. Where you are dealing with personal videos, the higher ipc of the A64s shine.
The A64 3200 is usually closer in price to the 630. Esp when you take into account the price of DDR2 ram.
I also award points to Amd for thier hsf. The stock 630 fan is loud and whinie.
You can also expect the mobo for the Intel chip will wear out a lot faster, with that kind of load on the mosfet cct.

Reply to endyen

As far as my budget goes, this is our 4th PC for a family of 4 and I'm not sure I should go all out on it. I was thinking a good price point for decent performance would be about $175 for the CPUs. Both of the CPUs I listed can be had for under $174 at ZipZoomFly.com.

I'd be surprised if the PC in consideration will ever be overclocked (or at least not until our 9yr old takes full responsibility for it), as our boys use it more for internet stuff and my oldest boy wants to use if for Lego Digital Designer.

I'm considering this because I was trying to extend the life of a Asus P2B-F P3 550MHz -based system. I discovered the power supply couldn't support a Radeon 9800 Pro I have (which would be way overkill for the system) and the motherboard didn't have the PCI rev.2.2 slots I needed for a wireless NIC. I just want to put something intelligent together that'll be bulletproof and not require any of my troubleshooting time.

So if I decide to stick with a P4 630 it'll be mostly because I'm familiar with Intel products. I have a concern with how hot the CPU runs, but I thought Intel had slightly mitigated some of the heat issues with the 600 series processors. It sounds like you're saying that's not quite true. I have a number of friends that always buy Dell computers and some of them are using 600 series processors and don't say anything about problems with heat. Is it because they just don't know? Or has Dell incorporated extra cooling in their systems to negate the issue of heat in their systems? Or perhaps this heat is only a factor when using 100% CPU time for extended periods of time?

I like everything I've read about AMD and their widespread use in the overclocking community and will give it serious consideration when upgrading my current computer. I'm just not as sure if it's the best direction to go for upgrading the family's #4 PC that probably won't be overclocked and I don't really want to put much time into.

Thanks for any advice you can provide at this lower price point.

Tim

Reply to tluxon

Its hard to say if they are the same price...

Hyperthreading IS nice. This is coming from a fan of AMD processors.. my fiance has a 3ghz P4c, and man.. when it comes to tabbing in and out of games and having more than one thing on the go, hyperthreading really does make a difference. Of course my A64 is faster for pure gaming speed, but that doesnt mean the P4 is a slouch.. it is still quite fast.

of course, if you dont have something very memory and cpu intensive running, A64's have no problem running more than one thign at once..

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Reply to phial

Pop in a Tualatin Celeron 1.4 on an adapter card and enjoy your old P2B-F. Use a USB 2.0 wireless NIC by adding a USB 2.0 card.

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Reply to Crashman

That's definitely a tempting way to go for the short term, Crashman. I just don't know how long it's going to be before the boys want to take advantage of the Radeon 9800 Pro and run a bunch of games through it. If and when they do, it would be nice to already have the system set up so I don't have to spend time upgrading again.

Reply to tluxon

Tell them that patience is a virtue and they'll really appreciate the system when you finish the upgrade...

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Reply to Rugger

Did you find a 925 board that uses agp?
My 13 year old has a s754 A64 3000+. It was cheap, and works great.
Pick up this <A HREF="http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813127190" target="_new">board</A> and this <A HREF="http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103483" target="_new">chip</A> and your boy will be happy for a few years, maybe even till he's 13.

Reply to endyen

yepp, ABIT and nForce is the way to go.

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Reply to Spitfire_x86

That looks like a good way to go for him, but I read that socket 754 has been phasing out in favor of socket 939. Shouldn't I pay just a few more bucks to get s939? Or is the RAM for that board more as well?

Reply to tluxon

RAM is the same price. The mobos/CPUs may be a little less, but you could get a <A HREF="http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813152049" target="_new">Chaintach VNF4 Ultra</A> for $73 and a <A HREF="http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103537" target="_new">A64 3000+</A> for $146 or the <A HREF="http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103535" target="_new">A64 3200+</A> for $190. The way to pay less with s754 is to go with a Sempron, but you lose a lot of gaming performance and 64bit.

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Reply to Rugger

How can he use his Radeon 9800 Pro with PCI express mobos? And there's 64 bit Semprons available, too.

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Reply to Spitfire_x86

You should consider getting a Sempron 64. They're cheap, and practically as good as A64s for almost everything except gaming. In games, it's not as fast as A64 but good enough to compete with P4s. And for the latest games, R9800 Pro will be the bottleneck, not the CPU.

Sempron 64 will be good enough for a 4th home computer, and it will be a long time before this PC will need to upgrade it's CPU or Graphics card. By then, S939 will become a discontinued socket just like S754.

Get ABIT NF8 and consider getting one of these Semrron 64s. You can get Sempron 64 2600+ for only $64 (<A HREF="http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819104249" target="_new">link</A> ). I would recommend getting either <A HREF="http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819104237" target="_new">3100+</A> or <A HREF="http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819104229" target="_new">3300+</A>

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Reply to Spitfire_x86

Better option for the mobo, then is the <A HREF="http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813157081" target="_new">Asrock 939Dual</A> for $69.99 and future upgradeability to PCIe. I hadn't caught that the Semprons were in 64bit now. What's the best review you've seen comparing their gaming perf to the A64s?

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Reply to Rugger

Another really good option.

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Reply to Rugger

Thanks for the links - I would never have thought of the Sempron 64, but these look like great choices for the price.

I'm curious about one thing, though. I do quite a few video projects and would consider borrowing some my kid's CPU time in running a low-requirement minimized task while he's browsing the net or playing a lower-requirement game. Is this something that all these processors can handle pretty well, or should I be looking for something in particular if I want to do that.

Thanks!

Tim

Reply to tluxon

Asrock 939Dual seems to be a good choice. I've only seen the Anandtech review. AGP and PCIe performance was practically equal.

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Reply to Spitfire_x86

The semprons have a small line2 cache. It does tend to slow down video encoding. OTOH, the system does run quiet enough that you could leave it to encode overnight, and not have it disturb the kid's sleep.

Reply to endyen

You can go with either the "Asrock board + A64 3000+ (venice)" or "ABIT NF8 + Sempron 64 3100+/3300+", it's mainly your choice. While I doubt that this PC will ever use the extra upgrade potential provided by the Asrock board, it's still better to have upgrade options. On the other hand, you're getting a motherboard from a more reliable manufacturer and a proven chipset with Socket 754 route.

Sempron 64s performs nearly as good as equally clocked A64s in most apps (without gaming). For multimedia stuff, cache size doesn't matter much. So Sempron 3100+ will be nearly as good as A64 3000+ (socket 939) and Sempron 3300+ will be equally good or slightly better (due to it's extra 200 MHz clock speed).

<A HREF="http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/sempron-3000.html" target="_new">This article should give you some idea about Sempron vs. Athlon 64 performance</A>

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Reply to Spitfire_x86

I was just about to plop down the money for a socket 754 Sempron 64 when I read the test in your link. Do you know if anybody's seen a socket 939 Sempron in stores yet?

I figuring on sticking with ASUS or Abit with an nForce chipset. Any recommendations for a motherboard with LAN, audio, and firewire onboard?

Reply to tluxon

That would put you mostly in the PCI-express lane. What would you do with that 9800pro?

Reply to endyen

NF3 Ultra is an option. <A HREF="http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813123222" target="_new">Epox 9NDA3+</A> meets his listed rqmts.

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Reply to Rugger

Socket 939 Semprons isn't available at Newegg.com. I think it's not very widespread yet, AMD doesn't have this CPU yet "officially".

Today AMD dropeed prices for A64 X2 and Sempron processors (<A HREF="http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20051024PR206.html" target="_new">Click</A> ). So I think going with ABIT NF8 and one of the faster Semprons make sesnse.

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Reply to Spitfire_x86

Well, as much promise as the socket 939 Sempron 64 might have, I think I need to get something ordered so my kids can get to using the upgraded computer.

I've narrowed my choices down to two with apparently comparable performance and on newer platforms that may survive a little longer before being phased out. I have an AGP Radeon 9800 Pro I want to use, so I'm looking at AGP motherboards.

The AMD configuration I'm considering will run about $240 for the CPU and motherboard. The CPU is the AMD Athlon 64 3200+ Venice 1GHz FSB 512KB L2 Cache Socket 939 <A HREF="http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103535" target="_new">http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103535</A> and the motherboard is the ASUS A8V Socket 939 VIA K8T800 Pro <A HREF="http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813131541" target="_new">http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813131541</A>.

The Intel configuration I'm considering runs about $270. The CPU is the Intel P4 630 Prescott 800MHz FSB 2MB L2 Cache LGA 775 <A HREF="http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819116198" target="_new">http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819116198</A> and the motherboard is the ASUS P5P800 Socket T (LGA 775) Intel 865PE <A HREF="http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813131511" target="_new">http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813131511</A>.

Both of these configurations are 64-bit compatible. The AMD appears to be a little stronger on graphics-intensive things like games while the Intel seems to have the upper hand on more CPU-intensive tasks such as video encoding. I understand the Prescott can get pretty hot, but is it really that big a problem? - Especially with a well-ventilated case such as the Antec Sonata?

I don't consider myself an "Intel guy" even though I've only bought Intel processors from my very first 8088 and I don't have any aversion to going AMD. I just want the kids' computer to be rock solid and trouble-free and offer a potentially significant upgrade path in the future.

Assuming that cost is not a factor, which way should I go? Got any other suggestions I should consider?

Thanks!

Tim

Reply to tluxon

By the way, can anyone tell me why the AMD Athlon 64 3200+ Venice 1GHz FSB 512KB L2 Cache Socket 939 (<A HREF="http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103535" target="_new">http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103535</A> ) is $46 less than the AMD Athlon 64 3200+ Winchester 1GHz FSB 512KB L2 Cache Socket 939 (<A HREF="http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103502" target="_new">http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103502</A> )?

Thanks!

Reply to tluxon

1 The venice core is better at cpu intensive tasks, the scotty is better at optimized software. Even so ,a venice 3200 is seldom beaten by a 630.
2 Heat is power. The scotty is fine in an oven, but what is your weakest link? Will the chipset go flakey? How does the ram like the extra heat? Do you really want to cook your gfx card? How long can that mobo push that much current through it's traces?
3 The venice core is cheaper because it's smaller, or more available, or newer stock, at newer prices.

Reply to endyen

So I guess I should avoid the Prescott if at all possible.

What's going to happen to all those Dell computers my company has purchased with Prescotts in them? Are they going to start failing earlier in their lifecycle than we had come to expect from previous experience?

Is Intel staying in the game primarily because of their reputation now?

Which motherboard will likely be more upgradeable in the future, the AMD socket 939 or the Intel socket 775 (T)?

You guys are great - thanks!

Reply to tluxon

Dell does there little thing, to make thier systems run cooler. They load the start memu, so there are no resources left to do anything. They set the bios to full ahead, dead slow. All the same, there are lots of 5 year old dells around. Three years from now, there wont be many 3 year old dells still working.
The Amd board you mentioned supports dual core chips now. The Intel board does not support dual core chips.

Reply to endyen

"1 The venice core is better at cpu intensive tasks, the scotty is better at optimized software. Even so ,a venice 3200 is seldom beaten by a 630."

Based on other things I've read, I'm sure you're right.

"2 Heat is power. The scotty is fine in an oven, but what is your weakest link? Will the chipset go flakey? How does the ram like the extra heat? Do you really want to cook your gfx card? How long can that mobo push that much current through it's traces?"

I hadn't thought about that, and it's something I don't think I understood. Other than through the path from the main power connectors to the CPU socket, how does any more than normal current pass through the rest of the motherboard? And isn't that path overengineered to easily carry as much power as the socket can ask for?

"3 The venice core is cheaper because it's smaller, or more available, or newer stock, at newer prices."

So it seems like that Venice core 3200+ is a very good way to go.

Now how about the motherboard? The reviews on the ASUS socket 939 boards with AGP are lower than I hoped for and I haven't found any Abit socket 939 motherboards with AGP. Are there any better boards that I'd be happier with? Also, I'd like onboard sound, but I don't mind re-using the SoundBlaster Live! card they have now.

Thanks!

Reply to tluxon

Abit boards are a little scarce right now. If you can find an AV8 3rd eye, they are very nice.
As the copper traces on a mobo heat, they become more resistive. They become more of a load. They drop the voltage available to the normal load. That means the load needs more current to work correctly. This is true on the mobo, and on add in parts like ram, graphics etc.
Fans are affected as well, but they run slower, so cool less.
Also, remember that to supply 100 watts to the chip, at 1.35v requires about 75 amps. Normal house wire is only rated to 15 amps. Do you see any traces on your mobo as big as a piece of house wire?

Reply to endyen

Okay, I think I found the motherboard for socket 939 and AGP.

Here's an Abit AV8 Via K8T800 Pro A64 Skt939 DDR w/Audio, Gigabit LAN, RAID/Serial ATA at <A HREF="http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=240140" target="_new">http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=240140</A>.

I think I would choose that over the ASUS A8V Socket 939 VIA K8T800 at <A HREF="http://
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod [...] 1541" target="_new">http://
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod [...] lt;/A>. Any comments?

Now how about recommendations for RAM? I was thinking of starting the kids out with a single 512MB stick of GeIL Value 512MB 184-Pin DDR SDRAM Unbuffered DDR 400 (PC 3200) from <A HREF="http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820144305" target="_new">http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820144305</A> and get more as they need it, or a two stick 1GB kit from <A HREF="http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820144310" target="_new">http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820144310</A> or <A HREF="http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=85002-3" target="_new">http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=85002-3</A>. I'm open for any other recommendations.

Cheers!

Reply to tluxon

"Abit boards are a little scarce right now. If you can find an AV8 3rd eye, they are very nice."

XPCGear has it in stock {<A HREF="http://www.xpcgear.com/abmbaveyeamd.html" target="_new">http://www.xpcgear.com/abmbaveyeamd.html</A> ).

What differentiates the AV8-3rd eye from the standard AV8? Is the external clock the main thing? I'm not sure if I'll be OC'ing this system but is it available as an add-on if I should want one later?

Reply to tluxon

I can't believe that you didn't throw out the <A HREF="http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813123222" target="_new">Epox 9NDA3+</A>!

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Reply to Rugger

Going for the pile on...

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Reply to Rugger

I was just about to order the AMD configuration (A64 3200+ Venice S939, Abit AV8) until I thought more about what I read in the Anandtech review at <A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2389" target="_new">http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2389</A>. Now I'm hesitating after seeing the lower scores the AMD Venice core gets for multitasking. The reason why is that our computers always have 10 or 15 tasks running at any one time. I expect my kids' computer won't be all that much different unless they're gaming on it, which probably doesn't represent a majority of the time.

I've lost interest in the P4 630 because of the heat issues and the fact that its performance doesn't justify it being $30 more than the A64 3200+. However, for about $220 I think I can get an Abit IS7 motherboard and a P4 2.8C Northwood CPU, which, according THG CPU Charts at <A HREF="http://www23.tomshardware.com/index.html?modelx=33&model1=63&model2=19&chart=30" target="_new">http://www23.tomshardware.com/index.html?modelx=33&model1=63&model2=19&chart=30</A>, should be near the equal of the A64 3200+ for multitasking duties. The P4 2.8C Northwood would address my heat and power concerns, but I'm sure it will have much less upgradeability. Is that a big deal? What direction would you go if you were looking more for multitasking than for gaming?

Reply to tluxon

I would take any CPU charts from THG with a grain of salt - they tend to show a lot of favor to Intel in their CPU charts...a lot of favor. I'd recommend finding some charts at different sites to compare some more.

That being said, buy now for what you need now. Don't worry about upgrade as much when you're building a computer. There are too many factors and too much new tech right around the corner. By the time you do upgrade, you'll want the new CPU skt or the capability to use some other cool tech - and you more than likely won't be able to do it with the current system. It might be worth it if you upgraded your rigs on a really regular basis - every 12 months or so. I doubt that will be the case with your 4th rig.

I'd still personally go with the A64. When the kids start playing, they will be able to use it longer than the P4 system - may save you some money in the long run. YMMV

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Reply to Rugger

Quote :

Did you find a 925 board that uses agp?

No such animal to my recollection!

ASUS P5WD2 Premium
Intel 3.73 EE @ 5.6Ghz
XMS2 DDR2 @ 1180Mhz

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Reply to mozzartusm

The IS7 is a very nice board. It will be hard to find one that cheap with so many options.

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XMS2 DDR2 @ 1180Mhz

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Reply to mozzartusm

get the 3000 a64, absolutely no need to spend anymore money. multi-tasking is not a problem with the applications i would imagine your kids would be running. my athlon xp doesnt slow down in anything that isnt intensive, and a64s are quite an improvement.

Reply to julius

Well, I hope I didn't make a mistake I'm going to regret.

I had a one time opportunity to buy an Abit IS7 and P4 3.0GHz 800MHz FSB Northwood combination for $230, but I had to decide before I saw any of your replies. The downside is that in my haste I missed pressing for the exact identification of the "IS7" and learned that it was an IS7E after I had already paid. I'm slapping myself because I'm normally a stickler for detail and I just flat-out dropped the ball on this one. I hope it'll still work out okay - what do you guys think?

I have a question about the RAM. The IS7-E only has 2 DDR slots so I don't want to make a mistake on this. I'd like to start the kids out on 512MB of RAM to see how it does and then up them to 1GB if/when it becomes needed. I believe I should be able to put a single stick of 512MB PC3200 DDR400 dual channel memory in there add another one later, but I've seen some people insist that DDR memory must be installed in pairs. What's the real scoop on this?

Thanks!

Tim

Reply to tluxon

ddr should be installed in pairs for dual channel. this does make for an improvement in intel systems, sligt one for amd. i say get 1gig of ram, that is just as crucial to multi-tasking as the processor, i noticed a nice improvement when i got another 512.

Reply to julius

Yes, you made a mistake. No point in regretting it, it's done. I do hope that it's a P4c, not an e or a. If it's new, you will regret it, because it's a prescott. At that low a speed, the heat isn't terrible, but it will kill that mobo in two to three years. Make sure you get high end name brand ram in a dual core set.

Reply to endyen

The processor is definitely a P4 3.0c Northwood core, so I'm covered there at least. I have a P4 2.8c in my PC, so I'm thinking about swapping it for the 3.0c and auctioning off my 2.8c along with that IS7-E board.

I know I'd have to eat it a bit, but I'm thinking of going for the A64 3200+ Venice and a Abit AV8 anyway. Am I making too big a deal about it and compounding things or is that a reasonable route to take?

I've had good performance with GeIL ram in the past, so I wonder if <A HREF="http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820144310" target="_new">this kit</A> is any good. Any other suggestions?

Thanks!

Reply to tluxon

You paid fairly close to current retail for that mobo and chip. You would have to eat a lot, to change now. I think you are stuck with another Intel rig. Oh well, it will more than do the job for a nine year old. Enjoy.

Reply to endyen

Forum CPU & Components : CPUs - A64 3000+ K8T800 or P4 630 i925X?

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