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EMERGENCY DUAL-CPU WORKSTATION PURCHASE!

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krazynutz   09-17-2004 at 08:23:10 PM

Yo guys. Need help ASAP. I need to know where I can order a dual-cpu workstation with a good graphics card (Quadro?). Dell can't help because they're out of stock. We ordered it two weeks ago and NOW they say they don't have the parts. Nice, eh? Anyway...Calling all cars! Calling all cars! I need to know which is better for 3D Graphics/Rendering: Dual Xeons or Dual Opterons. Why they're better (even if it's just price) and where I can get my hands on a system FAST. I said I could build my own (with a little helpful suggestions) but my boss wants it all at once with some type of warranty/service plan. Can anyone help? Thanks guys!

Also, if I'm allowed to build a system, which CPU's, mobos, and DDR should I get? I haven't researched dual-cpu/registered DDR too much, so any and all help is appreciated!

Finally, I know this will help: Cost of system - including all the innards, keyboard, mouse, and a 19" LCD monitor - can't be more than $3750 (including shipping and tax). More power/less cost is best, of course.

Thanks guys!

<font color=blue>This guy here is <i><b>dead!</b></i></font color=blue>
<font color=red>Cross him <i><b>off</b></i> then.<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by krazynutz on 09/17/04 02:34 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

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Ned_Flanders   09-17-2004 at 09:07:33 PM
- 0 +

........BACON! :eek:

_______________________
"In the US and A there are many jobs. For Men: Accountant, Life Guard, and Sportsman. For Women...Prostitute"

Reply to Ned_Flanders
krazynutz   09-17-2004 at 09:18:21 PM
- 0 +

mmmm....bacon....(drool).....

I'M SERIOUS!.......Sirius? Hmmm....

<font color=blue>This guy here is <i><b>dead!</b></i></font color=blue>
<font color=red>Cross him <i><b>off</b></i> then.

Reply to krazynutz
raretech   09-17-2004 at 11:02:57 PM
- 0 +

I'd check with Monarch Computers <A HREF="http://www.monarchcomputer.com" target="_new">http://www.monarchcomputer.com</A>. They *may* be able to do a rush configuration for you, but you'll need to call them on the phone to verify it. The last comparisons I saw done, the Opterons beat the Xeons in a dual configuration prettty much across the board. But that was like 8 months ago and I don't remember where it was. Some German site I think. More recently, Info world did a comparison, where they claimed that heavy multitasking loads were better on the Xeon.

But really, either chip ought to do the job rather well.

<i>Forget AMD and Intel, those are for fanboy lusers. The C3 is where it's at. Via Rulez!</i>

Reply to raretech
krazynutz   09-18-2004 at 12:28:15 AM
- 0 +

Thanks. I think I'll be able to build my own. I'm having a hell of a time finding a mobo for both xeon and opteron. Any suggestions for either? At least a brand name? I can find ones from Asus, Supermicro, Tyan, and MSI. Any of those better than the others for xeon/opteron boards?

<font color=blue>This guy here is <i><b>dead!</b></i></font color=blue>
<font color=red>Cross him <i><b>off</b></i> then.

Reply to krazynutz
raretech   09-18-2004 at 01:39:01 AM
- 0 +

When I spec'd my system last year, I was far more up on this stuff. I myself went with the MSI Master2-FAR for my Opterons. The biggest drawback is cpu1 has to go through cpu0's memory controller to access RAM. But this is(or was) the cheapest dual opteron mobo. 9+ months and I've enjoyed a really fast stable system under Linux.

I don't have personal experience with any other motherboard. But here's a link to a comparison of 3(including the master2-far):<A HREF="http://tech-report.com/reviews/2004q2/dually-opterons/index.x?pg=1" target="_new">http://tech-report.com/reviews/2004q2/dually-opterons/index.x?pg=1</A>

This is assuming you go Opteron.

<i>Forget AMD and Intel, those are for fanboy lusers. The C3 is where it's at. Via Rulez!</i>

Reply to raretech
Vapor   09-18-2004 at 02:07:06 AM
- 0 +

Definietly Tyan for Opteron...I don't know much about Xeon because it's a new platform that isn't that promising, IMO.

Maxtor disgraces the six letters that make Matrox.

Reply to Vapor
raretech   09-18-2004 at 02:31:03 AM
- 0 +

Unless it's the Tyan tiger, do not go with the tiger for Opteron. I haven't read a good review of that board yet. The thunder is respectable, but the tiger is a waste of money.

<i>Forget AMD and Intel, those are for fanboy lusers. The C3 is where it's at. Via Rulez!</i>

Reply to raretech
addiarmadar   09-18-2004 at 02:45:59 AM
- 0 +

Well I can help on the CPU choice. For god sakes, get the dual opteron option. You get a smooth 32bit/64bit process and the performance is much better in gamming than Xeons. Xeons are only good for servers and download beyoutch. The price range would put the opterons higher but they are worth every penny.

Go to www.go-l.com . They have some really interesting machine.

<i><font color=red>Only an overclocker can make a computer into a convectional oven.</i></font color=red>

Reply to addiarmadar
trooper11   09-18-2004 at 03:23:30 AM
- 0 +

well actaully you left out a good mobo maker, Iwill. If your buying into an opteron system now, id suggest getting the Iwill DK8N, it uses the nvidia chipset and its a much better solution imo. plus there are places to buy it now. And you wont have to worry about using an ati graphics card like you would have to with the tyan board.

Reply to trooper11
raretech   09-18-2004 at 07:30:28 AM
- 0 +

Trooper, I've read up on that board and it sounds damned good, thanks for bringing it up. The problem I'm having is I can't find it compared in any benchmarks against other boards. You wouldn't happen to have a link to a review with such a comparison would you? I'd appreciate it.

<i>Forget AMD and Intel, those are for fanboy lusers. The C3 is where it's at. Via Rulez!</i>

Reply to raretech
trooper11   09-18-2004 at 08:17:12 AM
- 0 +

hmm that is a good point, there have not been that many reviews done on the baord, which is strange, its such a nice board and with alot more potential then anyhting else out there. the only review i know of is from here:

<A HREF="http://www.burningissues.net/hard/DK8N_review/index.htm" target="_new">http://www.burningissues.net/hard/DK8N_review/index.htm</A>

it give some good info, it may not be the complete comparison you wanted, but it sure does do a good job.

Reply to trooper11
raretech   09-18-2004 at 09:26:40 AM
- 0 +

Thanks for the reply, found that one already. I'm going to keep my eye out for more reviews of this board. It sounds like a winner.

<i>Forget AMD and Intel, those are for fanboy lusers. The C3 is where it's at. Via Rulez!</i>

Reply to raretech
krazynutz   09-18-2004 at 11:49:06 PM
- 0 +

whoa! Thanks guys. all of you. Trooper, I read the review and I'm totally sold. The question is, how much is that bad mofo mobo? I can't find it anywhere to buy. I AM going to go Opteron and I have everything picked out except the DDR and the mobo. Thanks for the help guys. All I need now is a place to buy it. Also I was actually considering the Tyan Tiger. Thanks for the heads up on that one too guys.

<font color=blue>This guy here is <i><b>dead!</b></i></font color=blue>
<font color=red>Cross him <i><b>off</b></i> then.

Reply to krazynutz
Crashman   09-19-2004 at 01:30:40 AM
- 0 +

You can get 32bit/64bit Xeons too. Probably only from Dell though.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>

Reply to Crashman
addiarmadar   09-19-2004 at 03:10:09 AM
- 0 +

Yeah mostly but www.go-l.com also has them but they are no where near as good as the opterons.

<i><font color=red>Only an overclocker can make a computer into a convectional oven.</i></font color=red>

Reply to addiarmadar
trooper11   09-19-2004 at 08:50:28 AM
- 0 +

<A HREF="http://www.motionmedia.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=311" target="_new">http://www.motionmedia.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=311</A>

there you go, but quantities are limited so they may sell out from time to time.

Reply to trooper11
krazynutz   09-19-2004 at 11:14:24 AM
- 0 +

thanks, but that board, as nice as it is, might put me over budget. I'll check tomorrow. Perhaps I can sacrifice a gig of RAM (and go with just 1GB for now) and use that money for the better mobo. Whattaya guys think?

<font color=blue>This guy here is <i><b>dead!</b></i></font color=blue>
<font color=red>Cross him <i><b>off</b></i> then.

Reply to krazynutz
raretech   09-19-2004 at 12:43:37 PM
- 0 +

Do you know what apps will be run on that machine initially? I'd look into what their memory footprint is going to be on the expected workload. If it'll be running things really large a lot of the time, you might be better off just getting a cheap mobo and staying with 2 gigs. Swap can ruin the performance of the fastest machine in certain circumstances. If you're only likely to hit over 1 gig usage a small portion of the time, I'd go with the mobo and upgrade later.

<i>Forget AMD and Intel, those are for fanboy lusers. The C3 is where it's at. Via Rulez!</i>

Reply to raretech
trooper11   09-19-2004 at 06:54:54 PM
- 0 +

id be careful when buying some cheaper dual opteron boards, such as the tyan tiger or msi boards. while they are cheaper, they also have cut backs. the biggest being that both dimm sets go through 1 cpu, which does cut down performance some.

if it were me, id invest in the better board, youll end up getting longer use out of it.

Reply to trooper11
raretech   09-20-2004 at 01:07:46 AM
- 0 +

I understand that and even mentioned that in one of the earlier posts in this thread.

Check the bench's of the MSI Master2-FAR versus the Tyan Thunder(which has a dedicated bank of RAM for each cpu). In many cases the Master2-FAR comes out ahead. The full benefits of the dedicated RAM for each CPU won't be fully realized unless you're running a NUMA aware OS. If you're using a current release of Windows, the Master2-far will actually be faster in most things.

I'm not arguing against getting the better motherboard. I'm just saying he needs to take careful stock of the immediate needs of his employer. If the immediate workload being done on this machine isn't going to cause a lot of swap access in a 1gb setup, then I say go for the better mobo. If it is, I'd go with the cheaper one. Especially if you're only running Windows. What's the point of presenting your employer with a $3500 dollar machine that hits swap all the time? Until Windows64 comes out, you won't get a substantial benefit from the dedicated per cpu RAM. That is, as far as I understand the current shipping versions of windows. I could be wrong about this, I'm definetly not a windows expert, so someone feel free to correct me.

Oh, and the Tiger and Master2-FAR aren't comparable in my book. The Master2-FAR is the only "budget" dual opteron board I would even consider. The Tiger should be removed from the radar altogether.

<i>Forget AMD and Intel, those are for fanboy lusers. The C3 is where it's at. Via Rulez!</i>

Reply to raretech
krazynutz   09-20-2004 at 04:30:04 AM
- 0 +

wow. thanks guys. Ok. Here are the programs that will be run on the system: 3DS Max 6, Maya 6, Photoshop CS, Illustrator CS, Director MX 2004, and After Effects 6. So taking all that into consideration, what options would you all recommend? Better mobo/less ram, or cheaper mobo/more ram? Also, what are the odds og a "soft quadro" patch? I'd like to save money and get a 6800 GT and "make" it a quadro card, rather than spending $1000+ on it's workstation equivalent.

<font color=blue>This guy here is <i><b>dead!</b></i></font color=blue>
<font color=red>Cross him <i><b>off</b></i> then.

Reply to krazynutz
krazynutz   09-20-2004 at 04:37:58 AM
- 0 +

Hmm...best of both worlds....if I order the mobo, ddr, 2 cpu's, and XP pro, I get it for $1833.75. Add a case, PSU, DVD-RW, HDD, Keyboard, Mouse, 7-in-1 Floppy/Flash, and a monitor for $1000 more, I can keep this baby around $3000!

<font color=blue>This guy here is <i><b>dead!</b></i></font color=blue>
<font color=red>Cross him <i><b>off</b></i> then.

Reply to krazynutz
raretech   09-20-2004 at 05:41:41 AM
- 0 +

Does that deal include the higher end mobo? If so, I would jump on that and not look back.

As for your list of programs, it largely depends on how big the datasets you will be working with will be. Personally, I would lean towards getting the better mobo if it all possible for the simple reason that when Windows64 ships, you would realize, in theory, substantial speed increases with the better mobo, over the cheaper one. I generally agree with trooper that the ideal is to get the better mobo, it would just suck if that system ends up in swap alot because of too little ram. It also depends on how your boss would react. Some bosses would just say "get more ram then" and that would be the end of it. If that's the case, screw it, go with the better mobo.

I own the master2-far, and I can honestly say that when the dual cores come out, I'm upgrading to a better mobo. And as of right now, the Iwill is what I will be keeping my eye on, although there will no doubt be more options when that time comes.

<i>Forget AMD and Intel, those are for fanboy lusers. The C3 is where it's at. Via Rulez!</i>

Reply to raretech
trooper11   09-20-2004 at 08:35:06 AM
- 0 +

althouhg im still watching iwill's stuff closely, there are rumours floating around that tyan will be releasing an nvidia based opteron baord that uses 2 Nividia chipsets to allow for 40 pci-e lanes! that would be amazing if it turns out to be true. The supposed model number is 2895, but we will see if it happens. im a tyan fan myself, ive always had good luck wiht thier mobos, up until the k8w, then i ran into the ati issues and a couple other things that made me now consider the iwill boards.

now as far as his purchase goes, i agree that if he can only buy 1gb of ram, that is severly starving the system. heck even getting the msi board id say 1gb is starving it. 2gb is the minimum id put on that iwill board, then numa will become a bigger factor. as far as your graphics card goes, its too bad you cant afford to even get one of the entry level quadro cards, if you do go for the 6800gt, that will work, but youll see a nice boost when you move up to a more powerful card.

Reply to trooper11
raretech   09-20-2004 at 09:45:56 AM
- 0 +

<i>althouhg im still watching iwill's stuff closely, there are rumours floating around that tyan will be releasing an nvidia based opteron baord that uses 2 Nividia chipsets to allow for 40 pci-e lanes!</i>

Holy crap. Between this(I know, just a rumor) and dual core, next year could be the year we get back into the ludicrous performance jumps again.

Personally, I'm not tied into any brand of motherboard. I went with the MSI because it did best in the reviews at the time and had all the features I wanted at the time. I can recommend it for stability, this has been very stable. If I was buying now I'm pretty certain I wouldn't buy this, as there are more options available now then back then. I'm not a brand loyalist at all. Although if I get screwed by a brand, I rarely forget that. :lol:

<i>Cigarettes - No cholesterol, high in fiber, low in fat, how could they not be good for you?</i>

Reply to raretech
XeenRecoil   09-20-2004 at 04:35:35 PM
- 0 +

heya Krazynutz;

Here are some alternative solutions.

<b>Dual Xeon Solutions</b>
<A HREF="http://www.tyan.com/products/html/thunderi7525.html" target="_new">Thunder i7525 (S2676)</A>

<A HREF="http://www.tyan.com/products/html/tigeri7505.html" target="_new">Tiger i7505 (S2668)</A>

<A HREF="http://www.tyan.com/products/html/thunderi7505.html" target="_new">Thunder i7505 (S2665)</A>

<b>Monitor Solutions</b>
<A HREF="http://www.viewsonic.com/products/desktopdisplays/crtmonitors/graphicseries/g220fb/" target="_new">ViewSonic G220fB</A>

Reply to XeenRecoil
krazynutz   09-20-2004 at 05:09:24 PM
- 0 +

thanks to all you guys. all this help is great! XeenRecoil, thanks for the monitor suggestion, but my boss insists on an LCD. I can't complain with that...ha ha. So you prefer the Xeon's over the opterons?

<font color=blue>This guy here is <i><b>dead!</b></i></font color=blue>
<font color=red>Cross him <i><b>off</b></i> then.

Reply to krazynutz
XeenRecoil   09-20-2004 at 05:53:46 PM
- 0 +

I like this solution because its a workstation board designed <i>specifically</i> for the graphics creation workstation. It doesnt require ECC memory, even though it can be used, it has an 8xAGP <i>Pro</i> slot, which is a requirement for a graphics design workstation, it is dual channel DDR enabled. This thing is a beast of a workstation, there isnt many workstations that can touch it, its <font color=red>Red Hot</font color=red>.
So yeah i pretty much prefer this solution over others.
The best part is its pretty damn inexpensive as well, depending on which mobo you go with your only looking at anywhere from $1000 - $1150 for the Mobo and both 3Ghz Xeons, which isnt half bad, top it off with 2x1GB Crucial PC3200 for $520 ,and your looking at $1,670 USD, not too bad for such a capable core.

Reply to XeenRecoil
trooper11   09-20-2004 at 08:36:48 PM
- 0 +

well as far as i know, the tyan and iwill boards both have an agp pro slot, so that is taken care of. sure you could pop in opteron 246 and come out at the same price about as the xeons.

dont get me wrong, xeons are good performers, just looking at that system there, id still go with the opteron system becuase i like the features that he nvidia chipset brings alot more then that system.

Reply to trooper11
raretech   09-20-2004 at 10:00:38 PM
- 0 +

Since we're on the subject, the MSI board supports AGP pro as well. And with this board, it would be even cheaper. I'm not pushing this board though, this is strictly FYI. I strongly encourage someone going dual opterons to go for that Iwill board. I would.

EDIT - Actually, those looking for a high performance value solution, I would push towards the MSI if they were to go Opterons. It's been stable and very fast and has plenty of good features. I'd like to see some benches of this board versus that dual Xeon, I think this board could hang or better. Price with 2 246s: 1147.

<i>Cigarettes - No cholesterol, high in fiber, low in fat, how could they not be good for you?</i><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by raretech on 09/20/04 04:18 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

Reply to raretech
krazynutz   09-21-2004 at 08:29:08 AM
- 0 +

yeah, actually, I'm looking at the 246's. I'd like to see some benchies too!

<font color=blue>This guy here is <i><b>dead!</b></i></font color=blue>
<font color=red>Cross him <i><b>off</b></i> then.

Reply to krazynutz
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