A64 - nForce3 250Gb PREVIEW (UPDATED 2004-03-24) - CPUs

I WILL NOT UPDATE ANYMORE THIS POST IN THIS BOARD, I MOVED THIS LIST TO THE CHIPSET BOARD. IT'S WHERE I SHOULD HAVE POSTED THESE INFORMATIONS ANYWAY.<A HREF="http://forumz.tomshardware.com/hardware/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=558483#558483" target="_new">Go to the new location</A>

Here is the preview (in FRENCH) :
<A HREF="http://www.hardware.fr/articles/490/page1.html" target="_new">http://www.hardware.fr/articles/490/page1.html</A>

Previews in english :
<A HREF="http://firingsquad.com/hardware/nforce3_250gb/default.asp" target="_new">http://firingsquad.com/hardware/nforce3_250gb/default.asp</A>
<A HREF="http://www.short-media.com/article.php?142.0" target="_new">http://www.short-media.com/article.php?142.0</A>
<A HREF="http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/urltrurl?url=http://www.computerbase.de/news/hardware/prozessoren/amd/2004/maerz/a64_3400_sockel_939_sandrabenchmarks/&lp=de_en&tt=url" target="_new">Computer base "sneak peek" Translated from German</A> (Thanks to <A HREF="http://forumz.tomshardware.com/hardware/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=174050#174050" target="_new">Schmide</A> )
<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/chipsets/showdoc.html?i=2004" target="_new">AnandTech Preview - Part 1</A>

The SHORT-MEDIA preview gives a lot of infos/screenshots about the "nvSystemUtility" and "nvRAID" application. And it looks promising. VIA will have to do major upgrades in both fonctionnality and software support to stay competitive with this new nVidia chipset.

Performance are on par with VIA chipset. And the nForce3 have a couple of great features : hardware firewall, full-speed GigE interface and dual cpu support. We will only miss the nForce2 great APU. nForce3 only support AC97.Edited by TheRod on 03/24/04 11:31 AM.

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looks nice indeed. Especially Ethernet performance is spectacular ! I didnt read the entire article yet, but if this chipset support SMP, it could make a killer opteron chipset.

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =

Reply to P4Man

Seems that nVidia nailed it again.

Performance leader just like nForce2. Featurewise, it doesn't have legendary nForce APU, but comes with the best Gigabit ethernet and hardware firewall.

It will be great if they release a SMP version of this chipset or a southbridge only version to use with AMD 8131 chipset.

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Reply to Spitfire_x86

I bet they want to make an ultra version with the APU.

Or maybe they want to sell it as an ad-in sound-card.

A long long time ago, but I can still remember, how that music used to make me smile... <A HREF="http://www.nexus.hu/zonix/DIGGER.MID" target="_new">Digger rulz</A>

Reply to Snorkius

nVidia has a plan to release PCI-Ex version of nForce APU

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Reply to Spitfire_x86

Greedy nVidia! No more incredible APU included in the chipset... Maybe they sold not much of them?

Does anyone know what was the sales of nForce2 with the APU?

For me and my friend I usually recommended NON-APU nForce2 based board, because many of my friends already had an SB Live 5.1 or like me, they have only a pair of speakers. Which is enough for me and many people.

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Reply to TheRod

I hope they will include APU in a later revision

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Reply to Spitfire_x86

BTW, an interesting fact

nForce = APU present in Both MCP and MCP-D (MCP only didn't support 5.1)

nForce2 = APU present in MCP-T only

nForce3 = No APU at all!

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Reply to Spitfire_x86

Thank you <A HREF="http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/urltrurl?url=http://www.hardware.fr/articles/490/page1.html&lp=fr_en&tt=url" target="_new">Babelfishy</A>

Dichromatic for your viewing plesure...

Reply to Schmide

nVidia should go straight to ATI's throat and wipe off Creative's smirk in one fell swoop, with a PCI-EX video card that has:
1.) A very fast GPU
2.) A/V inputs
3.) The nForce APU
4.) Hardware MPEG1/2/4 compression
5.) A Multimedia Control Center, similar to Creative's Live Drive II, but with a built in TV-Tuner. This would take the tuner off the card so all video outputs could be on the back of a single slot.

Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!
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Reply to Crashman

Is that article translated in english, somewhere on the Net? I'd apreciate the link.

Reply to Mr_Nuke

Click on the Babelfishy link in my post above and you get an almost readable version.

Dichromatic for your viewing plesure...

Reply to Schmide

I'm not sure I'd be happy replacing my audio card, Tv tuner and all that each time I upgrade my videocard. MPEG encoding acceleration would be great, but everything else, I'd very much prefer on a different card, if it works, i don't want to pay for a new one every 6 months.

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =

Reply to P4Man

LOL, you wouldn't mind so much if:
1.) New cards could use the same tuner/bay panel, if you bought the VIVO version (just like you could use your Live Drive II from your Live Platinum 5.1 on your Audigy/Audigy2).
2.) The sound chip was on the head unit/bay panel, or was nearly free

OR

3.) You had a 2 bay SFX case and really needed the PCI slot for another card.

Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!
Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!

Reply to Crashman

Hey, by the way, you just became a contributor. Make the card VIVO with an internal interface for a drive panel that contains everything else. The interface would cost nearly nothing on the card, and you could use any nVidia card (with VIVO) you liked and keep the drive panel for several model cycles before it became outdated.

Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!
Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!

Reply to Crashman

Thats the best idea to come out of this forum ever.

I see what your saying, put the connector for the audio output on the video card... then if you dont want to use it, dont connect the PCI slot tab that contained your audio outputs/inputs.

Much like how midi/gameports are connected to modern motherboards.

They wouldnt have to put the APU on all cards anyway, just more multimedia rich models.
Leave options up to the board maker if they want to include the sound, or the sound and personal cinema...
I'd just take the sound personally.

There is going to be much unused bandwidth with PCIX16 slots and this is the perfect way to utilize it.

Hardware Dolby Digital 5.1 encoding, combined with all the hardware MPEG modes that have been recently confirmed (1-4 along with WMV9).

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RESIDENT FORUM WARRIOREdited by kinney on 03/11/04 04:55 AM.

Reply to kinney

That was my original idea, but now that I think of it, they could just use a proprietary data link (cheap) and put all the multimedia hardware on an expensive head unit. The interface would have a negligable affect on the card, but the head unit could have all the expensive add-on features. It would be a great way to use some of the extra bandwidth PCI-Express has to offer.

Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!
Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!

Reply to Crashman

well the thing is, evne on pci e x16, youll hit a wall if your trying to do multiple things at once. doing hd video work and the surorund sound work , plus gaming and tv tuner aspects, your eating up alot of bandwidth. i guess its possible, just dont try to use everything at once. One thing i think that will be cool is for video card makers to set up dual card set ups, using two pci-e slots. its similar to something voodoo tried when 3d was just getting started. two cards linked by a cable and thus used in dual set up, that would be great.

Reply to trooper11

Nope! Here's why:
1.) Sound streams take up very little bandwidth, a USB 1.1 connection is actually fast enough, except for latency and so forth that causes minor lags on todays top-end USB soundcards. If 1MB/s is enough for sound, 5MB/s would be the most you'd ever need to reserve for the soundstream, negligable impact on video performance.
2.) TV-Tuners DOWNSTREAM. Games and so forth require very little downstream. The PCI-EX is not only twice as broad as AGP8x in upstream, but they offer that same bandwidth in downstream, separately. That means for TV, you're only using bandwidth you didn't have a use for previously. This is described in THG's recent article.

So you don't need two cards, you need a small upstream (with negligable impact on video performance) and a moderate downstream (around 50MB/s peak, with no impact whatsoever on video performance). You must need an interface to tap into the unused bandwidth of the X16 slot.

Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!
Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!

Reply to Crashman

Then what do we have to build ... all this intergration means less components.

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Reply to Johanthegnarler

Thats a good thing though.

Xeon

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Reply to Xeon

well whne im talking about the dual card i wasnt refering to it becuase one card couldnt do the job, it was becuase im interested in dual dispalys. Its also true taht dual cards woudl acta bit like dual cpus, if the software is designed to take advatage of it. that would be cool to see. as far as the bandwidth, I guess your right, but im just wondering whne your passing hd video, thats alrge amount, I would think that it would nearly saturate the bus, maybe not the x16. what if it had to do with 3d rendering at the same time.

Reply to trooper11

You see, that's the funny thing about x16, it's supposedly 4x as fast as AGP8x, but really it's 2x as fast upstream. And video rendering is nearly 100% upstream. x16 also has the same bandwidth downstream, separately. You're not using it for video rendering, but you could use it to input video from a tuner, etc. It's not being used for rendering, so you might as well put it to use with something else. What I'm saying is that upstreams and downstreams are separate paths, unlike with AGP, so without something like a TV-tuner, one of these paths is virtually unused.

Even then the input signal would only take up a fraction of the downstream ability of the x16 slot.

Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!
Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!

Reply to Crashman

Quote :

nForce2 = APU present in MCP-T only

NOT TRUE!

I have an A7N8X NON-DELUXE and the south bridge is marked MCP-T but it doesn't support Dolby 5.1, it's only an AC97 south bridge. I read somewhere that ASUS had a "speacial version" of the MCP-T, but I never believed it. On the other hand I never found a way to activate the APU on my MCP-T.

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Reply to TheRod

You don't prove me incorrect.

Seems that some MCP-Ts had APU disabled. Just like cache disabled Celeron, "Thorton" AXP, "Applebred" Duron

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Reply to Spitfire_x86

I know, but it'S bad that MCP-T is marked on the chip, they should have named it MCP.

I never say an Athlon XP marked chip that was actually a Duron. For the average user, they usually don't care... But I searched for a while a way to "activate my APU because I tought the MCP-T on my board was working... I tough I maybe only need a BIOS or PIN hack on my A7N8X to make it work!

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Reply to TheRod

looks like everyone is getting in on the hardware security act. First you have amd chips that will support anti virus features on chip, now the nforce boards will add yet another layer with an onbaord firewall. its interesting how much security features have been added on the amd side in the last few months. Ill be interested in testing out the combination of the two.

Reply to trooper11

thats because windows is such a piece of crap, and sinse M$ isnt doing anything to fix it , other people have to take it into their own hands

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Reply to phial

Quote :

thats because windows is such a piece of crap, and sinse M$ isnt doing anything to fix it , other people have to take it into their own hands

I don't think you are right on that. nVidia made a smart move there. They want to enter the workstation/server market with this chipset. They need strong argument to convince IT personal to switch to nVidia/AMD platform.

To do so, they include a full speed GigE ethernet card and a hardware forewall, these 2 features are more than welcome in a server. nVidia wants IT to consider them as SERIOUS chipset maker.

I hope that AMD and nVidia reputation will make some IT shop and company like IBM or HP to offer solid 64-bit server based on Opteron/nForce3 250Gb.

The move nVidia just made can only be good for them and AMD. Intel, VIA and SIS will have to make equivalent products to stay competitive. So it's good for us, more feature in chipsets for the same price!

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Reply to TheRod

Another preview! And this little post to move this thread to the top (again). :smile:

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Reply to TheRod

Does anybody here know whether this chipset will support dual channel memory? I'm still trying to decide on what type of rig to build in the coming months and this chipset looks killer for the 754. But I've been reading that "dual channel memory" is not really supported with current A64 chipsets and that it will be one of the perks of waiting for socket 939. Also, does no dual channel support mean that only one RAM stick in the mobo is utilized (and if so, why have multiple slots)? Just trying to figure out what's going on and what all of this means. Thanks!

Reply to Xdrive

OK,

We can clear this out!

First, the memory controller is integrated to the CPU. So, there is NO DUAL-CHANNEL chipset for Athlon 64.

There is actually 3 types of A64.

- Athlon 64 have an integrated SINGLE CHANNEL memory controller (Socket 754)
- Athlon FX have an integrated DUAL-CHANNEL REGISTERED memory controller (Socket 940)
- Opteron have an integrated DUAL-CHANNEL REGISTERED memory controller (Socket 940)

Socket 939 A64 will support DUAL-CHANNEL NON-REGISTERED memory (standard DDR memory).

There will be 2 flavor of A64 on Socket 939 :
Athlon FX-55 (and higher)
Athlon 64 (dual-channel)

I'm not sure if AMD will bring some SINGLE CHANNEL memory CPU on this platform. They might do so if DUAL-CHANNEL is not working on some CPU batch. They might be able to deactivate DUAL-CHANNEL. They actually deactivate half the CACHE in the Athlon 64 3000+ because the CPU architecture permit this. But I'm not if this will be possible with the architecture of the Socket 939.

Does anyone know more about this?

MY OPINION :
If you are are not in a hurry to upgrade and you usually keep system more than a year between upgrade, wait for Socket 939 and PCI-EXPRESS motherboard before buying an A64 based PC.

If you really want a fast gaming machine right now and you upgrade on a regular basis, go for the Socket 754 and A64 3000+ or 3200+. Your system will amazingly fast in games if you plug a high-end GPU in it!

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Reply to TheRod

The chipset supports dual channel, but socket 754 chips do not. Performance wise, it doesn't seem to make that much difference if you compare FX-51 to A64-3400+.
You can use as many sticks of ram as you have slots.

Reply to endyen

Ah... okay I see. That puts me in a bit of a predicament though.

So what exactly is dual channel memory and what kind of difference does dual channel memory make in real world performance?

On another forum, I read where a guy said that the 754 chips can only utilize a single stick of RAM because it's not dual channel. Am I right for finding that to be kinda fishy? And even if not... then does that mean the 754's can only utilize half the memory of the dual channel chips? Just trying to get a feel for what this memory issue amounts to in real life.

My problem is that I need a whole new rig ASAP and I'm not planning on upgrading any more for a couple years or so (other than GPUs). I'm not a real PC gaming enthusiast(though I do want to game decently for a little while at least), and the money's going to be tight for a few years, since I'll be getting married soon. So whatever I build now will be all for a good long while, and the next time I invest in a new PC will be me going all out and getting a whole new setup again - years down the road. So I'm okay with forgoing things like Socket 939 if those new things aren't going to offer anything different than a longer upgrade path and dual channel memory (if that isn't too significant afterall)- since I'm not really planning on upgrading significantly.

What does intrest me with the A64 is the ability to run the new Windows 64bit OS - which might be pretty nifty. That and it's superior game performance. So when can we expect Socket 939 again? If it's going to be a while (like summer or fall) then I'll not wait.

I might just say "the heck with it" and get a P4 2.8c with some good memory. Still on the fence about it all.

Anyways, thanks for whatever help you can give me.

Reply to Xdrive

Quote :

So when can we expect Socket 939 again? If it's going to be a while (like summer or fall) then I'll not wait.

We should be able to buy Socket 939 platform within 2 months. AMD and Intel will starts selling their new platform at about the same time.

If you can wait 2 months, you will be better serverd with Socket 939. But if can't wait that long. I strongly recommend you A64 3000+ with a VIA Chipset based motherboard (like the <A HREF="http://usa.asus.com/products/mb/socket754/k8v-d/overview.htm" target="_new">ASUS K8V Deluxe</A> ). With 1Gig of DDR400 ram. You will be well equipped. And still have some upgrade headroom because AMD will start selling A64 3700+ for socket 754 later this year.

If you want to get decent performance in modern game, you should buy a Radeom 9600PRO/XT or a GeForce FX 5700 based video card.

And for the DUAL vs SINGLE CHANNEL memory, check the difference in performance between Athlon 64 3400+ (single channel) and Athlon FX-51 (dual-channel). These 2 CPU run at the same clock speed with the same amount of cache. You will notice that there is little diffence in performance.

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Reply to TheRod

well also remember that part of that, although i know not alot, is due to the facted that they are using regidtered memory in the ahtlon fx, so it will cut some of the performance, the switch to unregistered memory might be a boost.

Reply to trooper11

<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/chipsets/showdoc.html?i=2004&p=5" target="_new">PCI & AGP LOCK are working on nForce3 250Gb reference board</A>

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Reply to TheRod

Do we know whether AMD will be releasing the 3000+ and 3200+ models in 939? Cost is going to be a big factor in determining what I get. If they will only release the newer (and more espensive) models, then I might not wait. I'm going to be needing a processor in the same price range as currently what the 3000+ is or around there. Same for the mobos - do you think 939 mobos will cost any more than 754s? Price is an issue, and as you can see from my sig, I would like an upgrade fairly quickly. But if the 939s will cost about the same, then I'm definitely waiting.

PS: Because the money's tight, I've considered picking up an Athlon XP - but I'm afraid it might not hold up well over the next couple years. Any thoughts?

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Reply to Xdrive

Quote :

Do we know whether AMD will be releasing the 3000+ and 3200+ models in 939?

Probably not the LOWEST model, but not sure, I don't think there is official statement about this. Check what happened to Prescott it was supposed to be launch at 3.2/3.4GHz and they launched 2.8GHz to sell "lower-quality" core.

Quote :

I'm going to be needing a processor in the same price range as currently what the 3000+ is or around there. Same for the mobos - do you think 939 mobos will cost any more than 754s?

By the time Socket939 MB will be out, maybe A64 3200+ for Socket939 will sell for the price of today's Socket754 3000+. Don't forget AMD and Intel must stay competitive in pricing. For the motherboard pricing, more feature will equal higher price. It might not be surprising to find basis Socket939 cheaper than highly equipped Socket754 motherboards. For equally featured board, I think Socket939 will cost more for 2 reason : they will be new and on demand and some company will probably want to keep selling Socket754 boards, so they will have to attract customers with significantly lower price.

Quote :

Because the money's tight, I've considered picking up an Athlon XP - but I'm afraid it might not hold up well over the next couple years.

Don't upgrade Athlon XP, this platform is nearly dead. First the fastest XP CPU (the 3200+) can't beat P4C 2.8GHz/3.0GHz and it can't beat A64 3000+ too. I only recommend Athlon XP upgrade to people who already have an nForce2 motherboard with an Athlon XP lower than 2500/2800+. And these people should only upgrade to Athlon XP Mobile 2500+ (Barton core that can easily be clocked to 2.4/26GHz).

I wish this might help you decide. And don't forget that even if Socket754 is not as future proof as Socket939/940 this platform is still very solid. If you upgrade your Celeron 900MHz to an Athlon 64 3000+, you will see stellar improvment in all applications!

- Socket754 MB with a VIA chipset is a better choice than nForce3 150 based MB.
- Get DDR400 ram
- Get a decent GPU, at least Radeon 9600 PRO/XT or GeForce FX 5700.

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Reply to TheRod

Hey thanks! I appreciate all the advice. Since it'll be a couple months until I have the money fully saved up anyway, I might as well wait for a 939 A64. Though I'm thinking about going the nforce3 250 route (for the 939)- they seem to be anticipating good support for the new socket. Anyways, it'll be a fun-filled few months until I take the plunge and build it. My current rig is becoming more frustrating each day. I keep having to reformat the Hdd on a monthly basis - just did it last night in fact. after it's mostly full, I notice the performance drops significantly. Nomatter how hard I try to keep from filling it, I always fail and decide to wipe it out and start over (after backing up my files of course). But yeah, it's gonna be great to have a quality system for a change. Well worth the wait. Again thanks for the advice!

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Emachine T1090 - 900Mhz Celeron - R9200 SE PCI - 20 Gig Hdd - 384 slow RAM - yeah, I think it's time for a hardcore upgrade.

Reply to Xdrive

Sata does little for perf, go and by a bigger hdd now.

Reply to endyen

A64 - nForce3 250Gb PREVIEW (UPDATED 2004-03-24)

Forum CPU & Components : CPUs - A64 - nForce3 250Gb PREVIEW (UPDATED 2004-03-24)

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