HKMG overated?

I find the latest rumored speeds of the upcoming AMD cpu (Debeb) intriguing, not just because hopefully AMD may have a new, fast chip coming, but its NOT using HKMG, and the rumors are the chip can go to 4Ghz on air. I can remember as far back as 2006, when certain members here, and some whove left, ascertained the HKMG mantra, at 45 nm and less, youll have to have it, or youre voltage wont be controlled within the chip, and youll have leakage galore.


Well, this seemed to be confirmed, as Intel was humming away with their new 45nm quads and duals, using HKMG, while AMDs 65 quads ate power, abd the old K8 duals did as well. But now, it would seem if the Deneb chip can do this, and from whats also been rumored, and more to fact with Shanghai, the power usage and thermals both look great, showing very low leakage, which goes against everything Ive read and heard about HKMG. I know it helps, but I feel it JUST helps, and has been overhyped, and also used against AMD, IBM etc in various forums and site writeups. Heres a link that shows some interesting info http://www.eetimes.eu/semi/212002481?pgno=3

Quote:" How did AMD reach 45 nm without resorting to HKMG? Actually, the first 45-nm device on the market was Matsushita's UniPhier, and it also used conventional poly plus oxy-nitride dielectric. Just like AMD, Matsushita brought immersion lithography online to meet the scaling requirements of 45 nm. In fact, UniPhier boasts the tightest metal pitches we have seen in a logic chip at 138 nm. The transistor performance requirements of the UniPhier design were lower than a high-performance server processor. The end game for Matsushita was basically circuit density"

So, while Intel certainly does employ nice processes in thier cpu's, they arent the only ones whore innovative, but to me, it seems they ARE the ones that get all the credit, even for things that apparently dont amount to much at 45nm

well with ibm behind the wheel you can only suspect good things, they do everything...

Nice post JDJ. You gotta believe AMD's 45nm tech with their HKMG gate first approach is going to pay dividends. Like BlackWidow mentioned, IBM and the alliance are a force to be wreckoned with. That process, along with AMD's own sauce, is pretty amazing, all things considered.

As for their current tech, I think the writing was on the wall, it's just that Intel's marketing machine overwhelmed the senses, and put theirs on center stage.

However, we know all the rumors are false.........
How? AMD tells us so.............

Simply Put, If the AMD Chips could run that fast that cool.....
They would be selling them at higher not lower speeds than the current chips.

This way they could charge a price that turns a profit and not a loss.

But hey, what does AMD know about their own chips.
AMD is just an Intel Fanboy to make such claims about their own product.

You do realize that AMD will be shipping the first 45nm Quads at lower speeds than their current 64nm parts due to leakage and that the faster parts will not ship until AMD upgrades to HKMG?

But hey...............
What does AMD know about Phenoms.........

They should really read the rumor boards so they would now what speeds their chips run at............

Obviously, you didnt read my link. Start from there, then go forwards

damn it Jaydee, who keeps downrating every post you make.

Also i think jaydee was just pointing out that even though people said it couldn't be done at 45nm, it has been with an alternative process.

Did not see anything about 32nm, just that it shows that there are more than one way to (insert analogy)

Intel's chips are capable of running at much higher clock speeds without increasing voltage or requiring exotic cooling yet I don't see you complaining about them not releasing them with higher stock speeds. Why should we expect that it be any different with AMD? Just because they're not Intel?

Whoa, you getting way too emotional over this.
First, where did anyone claim that HKMG was the deciding factor for anything? I don't remember anyone claiming such a thing. In fact, the only time HKMG was mentioned, was when detailing how Intel used it to lower power leakage and have better transistor performance at 45nm.
Second, who claimed you said it wasn't going to be used? Or said it was useless? I look at all the replies, and no one said anything to the effect.
Third, you claim TSMC will take the process lead from Intel? In what? What process are you talking about? You know, TSMC and Intel use different processes, right?

As for your overhyping...it seems like you are the only one who is claiming any sort of hype for HKMG. It helped Intel at Intel's 45nm node, and will continue to 32nm. IBM was going to use it at 45nm, but pushed it to 32nm. Why? Who knows? Maybe IBM is still looking for a way to use it with SOI, along with bulk. And because of this push, AMD did not use it at it's 45nm node.

So, who exactly hyped HKMG the way you care claiming?

Again, jaydeejohn, I don't remember anyone hyping HKMG, as much as you are.

It was mentioned that HKMG was going to be needed after 65nm, since power leakage would be substantial (theorized) at 45nm and lower, without it. That was a theory. IBM was going to use low-k MG at 45nm and go to high-k later. Again, if you believe high-k to be overrated, why would IBM consider using it, if it was not needed at all?

I kind of understand where you are going, that AMD's 45nm doesn't have high-k, and it seems to be doing fine. If you are basing it solely on the Shanghai release, that's fine. But Barcelona power consumption was not bad, even at 65nm. And looking at the "rumored" Phenom II 940's TDP of 125W, that is still pretty high, considering that the 9950 also ran at 125W.

If AMD had the opportunity to use HKMG at 45nm, I'm sure they would. The problem is, they are dependent on IBM's SOI process changes. So, when IBM pushed it out until 32nm, AMD couldn't do anything, and had to use what was available to them, which was SOI.

Even the article you linked mentioned that AMD was squeezing every last drop of performance from SOI (not a direct quote).

If Deneb shows good performance and power consumption, without HKMG, that is good. But until independent tests are ran, it's hard to tell if AMD's 45nm will live up to the "rumors".

That is because they don't need to do this.
They leave headroom so they can release new processors at higher speeds and then bump processors down the line.

And not all of Intel's processor are that low.

Example - The Extreme i7 Ships at 3.2 Ghz w/ guarenteed auto OC to 3.35 Ghz.....

AMD will be shipping 2.4-2.7ghz with a lower IPC

If their chips could hit those speeds on simple cooling, they would realease them and sell them at higher prices.
They would actually sell a combination of low margin and high margin chips.

This is what they did when they were actually competitive.
It's not that hard.

And as the article is talking about server chips, these generally can't be OC'd.
So if you wanted to go AMD, you would be hurting themselves more.
If somebody wanted the horse-power, they could not get it.

No way AMD would refuse to provide a processor that could meet the High Margin sector if it was simply a matter of giving it to customers.

You may think AMD is stupid, but I don't think they are that stupid.

I remember several threads claiming that SOI @ 45nm would be a disaster. You have to go way back to around March to find them however. Unfortunately the search function on this forum sucks royally so I was only able to find a couple of threads.

Thread full of AMD and SOI bashing by the usual suspects: http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/ [...] aunch-2009

Thread dispelling some of the rumors: http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/ [...] mshardware

I suspected that you would go with the typical fanboy response....

Then why hasn't Intel ever released a Core 2 processor clocked higher than 3.33Ghz when several models have been widely reported to be able to OC to nearly 4Ghz using conventional cooling?

Are we talking markets here? So, how much do 3+ Ghz Intel quads cost? And, is that even AMDs targeted market? And, is that where the mains sales are? THINK about it first. If they could they would... would what? Sell a couple thousand cpus? How bout coming right to that edge? How bout comng in at low pricing? High performance? Decent OCing, when your competitor has taken time off to catch up top you in server, and somewhat neglected DT? Or, like nVidia, which charged as they needed, ran their costs high, came in with? I gpu that was VERY gpgpu friendly, and not so for gaming, just so so. I see this as possibly happening all over again, not at the top, as AMD doesnt need to seel in the share of the market, as its small anyways, but the mid market, be competitive, and come in cheap.

When AMD had the best chip out, they couldnt conquer any major marketshare, and howd they NOT do this? Maybe as someguy7 said, threy waited on Intel, and also MORE importantly, they DID charge the same for their cpus

Whe we all heard the pricing of the 4xxx series, what was the response? At those prices, not good. What makes you think mnot having the FX chip out now is going to be a negative? And who says its NOT coming? The 4870x2 showed up later too. Theres more here than people realise, and the rumors are just rumors til shown different, but bad rumors are "if they could, they would" too

Has anyone ever said Intel NEEDED soi, or itd fail? Has anyone said, soi is so superior, and Intel worthless without it? That their cpus would burn up without it? (excluding P4s of course)

Shaming a company for something they dont HAVE to have , and then going on about how great the thing they dont have is...what? Stupid? Ignorant? Fill in the gaP? I was told by many a person how needed, how important, and how superior HKMG was. I was also told SOI couldnt hold up, wouldnt hold up, was sooo yesterday, it was a joke, all the while chest thumping was going on, and now, its become "theory", now soi is supposedly overhyped?

Like I said, it seems people will find any reason for their cause.

Hows this for digging something up? "AMD will have to wait to 2nd generation of 45nm to actually improve K10's performance by a substantial margin. 45nm SOI simply won't work well for them.

I would stay away from DDR3 for now , and use them as Nehalem "

Now who would say that? And be knocking soi?

What I find funny here is, when Barcelona came out, alot of people rightfully slammed AMD for all their balony about its performance,ocing etc, which was due, and AMD proved itself as their own worst enemy. All the people on Intels side were loving this, and went overboard with enthusiasm bashing AMD, which we all have done, and again, rightfully so.

But whats most interesting is, those who happen to reside on one side or another cant seem to figure out that theres those who dont have a side, and call it for what it is. And Im saying, people who went around telling me and others that HKMG was sooo wonderful, and soi or anything without HKMG would fail at 45nm didnt know what they were talking about. They were hyping something that wasnt true. And mostly, it was coming from the Intel "side" of course

The difference between AMDs successful transition aimong at the server market having K8 at the time, and i7 is yet to be seen totally, because of i7's newness, but is obviously there. Your point?

Yes, it was from you, from here http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/ [...] aunch-2009

As to your post, its as I thought, an old revision, as C2 is current, and possibly C3 for Deneb. And, need I point out the GO stepping, and what it meant?

So where's the CPU-Z shot?

You know in order to convince others, hard facts usually work better than pulling stuff out of thin air without proof.

And what exactly is preventing TSMC, IBM et al? According to you and others, theyll HAVE to HAVE HKMG

The reason is simple and previously explained.

Intel has a Processor in all of their desired price slots.
High-End Max Profit down to High Volume Low Profit.

Prior to the Core2Duo XEONS, AMD also had such a Server Processor LineUp and made large profits.
If AMD "COULD" produce processors that could be sold for more, they would.
In fact, It AMD's board of directors would be held libal to lawsuit if they intentionally forced a loss upon the company as you suggest they are by intentionally selling processors at both performance and price levels at which they could be sold.

It's amazing that nobody seems to have the slightest clue that AMD and Intel are companies out to make a profit and legally bound to attempt to make a profit for their shareholders.

Preventing? TSMC is going HKMG in 32nm, same with IBM. I don't see your point here.

By the way, HKMG is not going to just fall from the sky even if they do a dance around the fire. Large amount of R&D dollars must be spent in developing the technology, and larger amount of R&D must be spent to implement them, and produce them. For them, the money could've made a larger impact somewhere else.

Ahh... now we're changing the subject, and twisting my words while you're at it?

This is my exact quote.

I did not say it will be any better than the previous gen. I did not say it won't work. I said, "it won't work well".

Proof? How about the link I just posted showing 1.6V required for 3.44Ghz operation? I'm sure the current steppings have improved a lot, but "how far" is the improvement? Again, pulling words out of thin air is a little difficult to convince others.

By the way, I hate to say this, but it seems that you're adopting the mentality of legendary BM.

EDIT:

Here is the screenshot from Coolaler. Since you're too lazy, or was just reluctant in making this a meaningful debate, I'll have to search for the proof myself.

Again, 1.6V for 4.0Ghz? That's pretty much on par with Intel's 65nm.

You obsession with HKMG is showing now, and you are misleading, by adding meaning to people's statement(s).
No where in yomamafor1 did he mention HKMG. No where. But you seem to just add your own opinion of what he wrote. I'm sorry, but I cannot just allow you to twist someone's comment to fit your argument.
This was yomamafor1's entire comment:

Now, where is HKMG mentioned?
You are the only one who is claiming that anyone stated that AMD needed HKMG. No one else. You created the hype and now are arguing about the same hype you created.