Should Tomshardware be called Toms_way_its_meant_to_be_played ?? - Page 3 - Graphics-Cards

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The ME II comment made we laugh. I don't get what everyone is so mad about, tom's did a review of the 4850. What more do you guys want?
^ and to dumbass johnie, if you read the actual article for the 2000, they explained why they didn't use ati.

Message edited by customisbetter on 06-30-2008 at 10:33:44 PM

------------------------------ e4400 2.75Ghz MSI G33 4x1GB DDR2-667@826 Palit 4870 3DMark 12112
Reply to customisbetter

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johnie wrote :

Hey, is ATI HD4870 released??? Tom really makes me wonder about that.... Every single site has a proper review of the card but no Tom. I wonder what a consumer that uses Tom to inform himself would buy....

Now what can we say about the new two articles of Tom?

System builder marathon sub: - 2000 $
http://www.tomshardware.com/review [...] ,1959.html

System builder marathon sub: - 4000 $
http://www.tomshardware.com/review [...] ,1956.html

WOW!! Now Tom is going to make us all crazy or think we are stupid or something....
Both systems have Nvidia chipsets and both have Nvidia VGA cards in SLI...
And let's say that in the high end system the Asus Striker II Extreme with two 9800 GX2 is the best choice...
What about the mid range system? They could have used 2x4850 and a X48 mobo (even the Foxconn Blackops) and stay much under the 2000 $ and smash the scores of the configuration they used now! But no! For Tom, Nvidia is the way to go!

Yup, I hate to say it but I have to take back what I said before - it seems Tomshardware really is Nvidia biased if they won't release a proper 4870 review after this long

Reply to ovaltineplease

i agree...

Reply to rahulbond2002

I honestly think it's bias that they haven't released a 4870 review, and also that it's ridiculous to claim a review of the 4850 is just as good.

This is all the more so as they reviewed the 260 as well as the 280.

The fact that ATI didn't send them a test card, or whatever the exact wording was that someone posted to this effect, doesn't matter anymore, as it's been available on retail for quite some time.

Reply to satanpro

Yep^

Reply to The Lads

Tom show us the sub -1000 $ system!!! guess what!! NVIDIA AGAIN!!!

NVIDIA IN WHOLE THREE CATEGORIES!!!! BOTH CHIPSETS AND SLI CONFIGURATIONS!!! THIS IS GETTING RIDICULOUS!!!

Reply to johnie

Hey, at least they aren't as bad as [H].

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Reply to randomizer

They certainly should have reviewed a 4870 by now, but this points to a weakness of AMD when it comes to dealing with the media - something they have a track record of - not the most media-savvy company in the world.

Reply to The_Abyss

tseska69 wrote :

No, I agree with you. It seems since this make over and new management, many things have taken a turn for the worse. Editing/proof-reading is the most noticeable, to me at least. The tone of some of the articles has changed from a more 'reporting' approach to an almost fan-boy approach. It's too bad, I have always valued the opinion and the information I found on Toms. Now I am beginning to reconsider that.

Not to mention these really annoying environmental news items, totally unrelated to technology. I don't come here and read the news posted so I can bump into some green-fanatic reporting totally arbitrary to my interest news about environment just to please there self of an ego and agenda.

Furthermore when I pointed this out as a comment to the news article. My comment was deleted. :fou:

Reply to lordmetroid

Boo hoo, they havent done a review yet, what a bunch of babies.LOL

Reply to Monsta

Most people get their reviews elsewhere and then just chat about them here instead of the other forums. Reasoned balanced moderators here - makes a big difference. Still not perfect, but then no forum is.

Reply to The_Abyss

I completely agree with The_Abyss. Our complaints in this thread are only complaints about the website and not related to the forum in any way. The website today is a just business like other businesses, and we're criticizing them as such, and due to its former reputation as a great source of balanced reviews and information.

The forum is different. The moderators are balanced as you say, and the user base balances itself out.

That said, I think the criticism of the website and its bias still stands, and I've been unconvinced by the arguments made in support of the decision not to review the 4870.

Reply to satanpro

randomizer wrote :

Hey, at least they aren't as bad as [H].

[:datmanii]

Message quoted 1 times

------------------------------ You need a license to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) - RED GREEN. GA to SK
HD Freedom: 45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
Reply to TheGreatGrapeApe

yeah! tom isn't as bad as many other sites...

we should be happy then!

Reply to johnie

TheGreatGrapeApe wrote :

[:datmanii]

Yea, except that [H] did a great and unbiased review of the 4800 series

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Reply to ovaltineplease

ovaltineplease wrote :

Yea, except that [H] did a great and unbiased review of the 4800 series

I wouldn't say it's completely without fault, but it is much improved over some of their previous reviews.

Biggest problem with [H]'s reviews is inconsistency, and the inability to make the 'best playable' style review work, focusing more on making a difference to show rather than detailing how the setting best suit the game and hardware (who plays with grass disabled and view distance crippled in Oblivion?).

------------------------------ You need a license to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) - RED GREEN. GA to SK
HD Freedom: 45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
Reply to TheGreatGrapeApe

Perhaps, I don't even play Oblivion though =)

But more seriously, you can see how the settings suit the game by referring to the graph over the chart. It'll show you whether its spiking irregularly or not.

I still think HardOCP's style is a lot better than most sites and more indepth than using a "min/max/avg" which tells you almost absolutely nothing about what the gameplay experience is like

Look Grape, with the way things are going especially with the system builder marathons if you can look at me and say "What? Of course there is no consumer detrimental bias in THG this week!" - well, i'd be pretty disappointed with you. This isn't about you/me/other posters, this is about the people who click on the links at the frontpage of the website and are lead to believe the best value for their money is 8800 GTS SLI on Nforce boards for 450$ according to the system builder marathon when it truly isn't right now.

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Reply to ovaltineplease

ovaltineplease wrote :

But more seriously, you can see how the settings suit the game by referring to the graph over the chart. It'll show you whether its spiking irregularly or not.

Yeah except the graphs are often the error in the apples to apples, and then the reviewers say they mean nothing, we're supposed to just take their opinion, which is a terrible way to defend what is supposed to be self-explanatory apples-to-apples. If there's an issue with the part that should be straight forward then it's difficult to give weight to the part that has very little objective data and a ton of subjective to decide on what's 'max playable'. That's my major issue with that method, it almost needs a 'max playable' plus 'max similar' to do a better job of exposing the hardware differences and anot differences from run to run.

Quote :

I still think HardOCP's style is a lot better than most sites and more indepth than using a "min/max/avg" which tells you almost absolutely nothing about what the gameplay experience is like

I agree it has the potential to be, I think their application is what's at issue. I prefer a hystogram than mix/avg/max as well because it tells me if that min is for a very brief dip or if it a deep trough with the max being the anomaly overshoot that messes with the average.

Quote :

Look Grape, with the way things are going especially with the system builder marathons if you can look at me and say "What? Of course there is no consumer detrimental bias in THG this week!" - well, i'd be pretty disappointed with you.

Well as I know the reviewers of those three pieces, I'll take your disappointment over thinking them shills, since I know better.
The thing is and don't take too much offense, but I'll trust the two reviewers over you, and actually everyone in this thread. I may respect many other people's opinions and the benefit to them having differing opinions (which is why this thread is still dragging it's sorry A$$ along instead of closed and deleted), but there's no people I trust more in the forum (although some equally) than the two authors of those '$X build' articles, and will the n00bz who don't know them may question it, I'm not coming on for the ride. I can't speak to the authors of the HD4800 articles as they're not the same crowd, but I trust Don and Thomas. My only issue is with the timing of the article at just around launch time for new hardware, but I know that wasn't likely their decision either (schedules, deadlines and all). You may have trouble taking it at face value, but I don't.

I also don't like that reviews are slower since the move of THG back to Europe, but we kinda knew that would happen when they got bought by Best of Media.

Quote :

This isn't about you/me/other posters, this is about the people who click on the links at the frontpage of the website and are lead to believe the best value for their money is 8800 GTS SLI on Nforce boards for 450$ according to the system builder marathon when it truly isn't right now.

I don't disagree with that statement, but it's a big leap saying that versus what's being said in this thread.
The reality is that this is no different than all the outdated before published magazine articles. Because of schedules and lead times, this happens alot, and for it to be a surprise to anyone say more ot me about them than the articles.

Message quoted 1 times

------------------------------ You need a license to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) - RED GREEN. GA to SK
HD Freedom: 45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
Reply to TheGreatGrapeApe

TheGreatGrapeApe wrote :

I don't disagree with that statement, but it's a big leap saying that versus what's being said in this thread.
The reality is that this is no different than all the outdated before published magazine articles. Because of schedules and lead times, this happens alot, and for it to be a surprise to anyone say more ot me about them than the articles.

What I said was not symmetrical with this thread, and there is a big difference between this and outdated magazine articles: the internet is practically speaking live data, and a published magazine is printed paper which has a much longer period between the article conception and the article printing.

Look, it might sound fair, it might not sound fair; but frankly from my point of view it would be more conscientious to scrap those articles completely and write new ones, not just hang onto the articles cause "well they were nearly done already" which seems a bit silly.

You can defend these articles all you want but articles like that are making THG look nothing but Nvidia biased and technlogy ignorant. You can trust Don and Thomas or whomever if you want, but there are facts and there are conveniences - and the fact is that the articles would've been outdated if they had been printed a month ago; and the convenience was using them anyways cause they didn't want to goto the expense or time to actually do credible ones.

I don't know which were worse, the system builder marathon, the IBuypower article, or the TRI/Quad SLI system comparison. All of these are sub par articles that appear to be aimed at company advertisement more than actual content.

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Reply to ovaltineplease

ovaltineplease wrote :

I don't know which were worse, the system builder marathon, the IBuypower article, or the TRI/Quad SLI system comparison. All of these are sub par articles that appear to be aimed at company advertisement more than actual content.

Ahh come on, you didn't like the iBUYPOWER article :lol:

Reply to homerdog

Seriously, I felt Tom's HD 48XX review was lackluster at best. BTW, where the heck is 4870's review? Can't they find one on retail yet? By now I can buy one even in Brazil! OMG.

Someone at FedEX has got Guru3D's 4870 and they still managed to make the damn review.

One of the few ~big~ sites just as outdated as Tom's (the CPU chart is a *joke*, so, I'm thinking the other charts probably aren't that good either) is X-Bit labs. They had some great reviews until some time ago and now they can't even make a proper 48XX or GTX 2XX review before Christmas.

But Tom's forums are still the best. :wahoo:

Reply to dattimr

I will have to agree with Oval and Dattimr in that Tom's dropped the ball on the HD4870 review. However I am not willing to say that they have become complete Nvidia hounds. Honestly Tom's has seemed a bit more biased lately, but that may have more to do with their inability to get hardware from AMD/ATI, than being paid like a gaming site on NV's payroll.

At first I did have to scratch my head at some of the hardware they choose in the new System Builder Marathon, but seeing the systems were built in May... They really did make the right calls on hardware (maybe a slight change here or there, but that is based more on my preference than anything else).

I think what Grape said is honestly the best truth on this site, the move with the new management has cause some articles to be later than anticipated, that more so than anything else is making Tom's look like Nvidia's blowup doll. Honestly, look back a month ago, before the 4800's series was released, Nvidia ruled the roost and there really wasn't much to say about ATI/AMD.

That said it's kind of sad to visit a "Hardware" site and see what should have been last months articles and reviews, when you are looking for info on new hardware. But I have been here at Tom's a very long time (despite what my new profile suggests), and I do miss the old site, but I think once they get on top of the articles and start catching up with their releases, this is still the place to be.

P.S. as Dattimr stated above Tom's Forums are second to none.

Message edited by CSA_Myth on 07-02-2008 at 12:08:01 AM

Reply to CSA_Myth

Bahh what is with me today and double posts ... Sorry.

Message edited by CSA_Myth on 07-02-2008 at 12:08:40 AM

Reply to CSA_Myth

whats with the 14 blank votes? those going to 'no' will tie it up.

------------------------------ e4400 2.75Ghz MSI G33 4x1GB DDR2-667@826 Palit 4870 3DMark 12112
Reply to customisbetter

Blank votes are when you view the results without voting I think. You can't vote once you view results.

Reply to randomizer

Im surprised this is still going on. Is the reviews somewhat delayed? Id bet on it. Are the reviewers here at Toms unbias? Id bet on it. Did AMD's new Marketing head honcho just take over within the last 2 weeks? Yes. And did it add to some of the problems we are seeing? Id bet on that also. I think Toms needs a 4870 review, I dont care if it comes in late or not, that I agree with. The sustem builders reviews were done in May? OK, that makes sense. Dont go after the reviewers, its not their fault. If whomever is responsible for delayed reviews, I hope they understand what it takes to male it bleeding edge , cause new tech comes out all the time, and if they delay, its old and inappropriate by the time its released, like with the system builders using over priced, noncompetitive nVidia products. Whos happy with this? Not the reviewers, not me, not alot of people, and the ones who should be the most disatisified, the editors et al. Hopefully things will pick up and get in step, including AMD and their marketing

------------------------------ I went drifting, thru the capitols of tin, where men cant walk and cant freely talk, and sons turn their fathers in
Reply to jaydeejohn

johnie wrote :

It's been almost a week since ATI has released HD4850 and Tomshardware is the only site that hasn't published a review. Instead, they have published 3 to 4 subjects about NVIDIA and how great their cards are, one of them talking about how NVIDIA smokes 3DMark scores with their last driver:

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/N [...] ,5725.html

But they "forget" to mention that the driver isn't 3DMark certified as it is clearly violates the rules set by 3DMark:

http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inqu [...] 3dmark-177

Don't they want to inform their readers about ATI HD4850? If you're watching the site's subjects closely you can see there are other examples of such behavior as well. Am I the only one thinking that Tomshardware is loosing its reliability? So, what do you think, should www.Tomshardware.com be renamed to www.Toms_way_its_meant_to_be_played.com ?

I can't believe this. People crying over a site that hasn't reviewed a graphics card. You all know that the internet is huge, and highly subjective? There are other places you can visit to get a review.

On a side note: it seems as though a complaint was launched because Toms hadn't reviewed an Ati card - if this let's you believe that it's biased then why don't you look elsewhere until they do such a review and then compare and instead of probing such a possibility rather confirm or deny it with facts.

Message edited by Vokofpolisiekar on 07-02-2008 at 11:26:31 AM

Reply to Vokofpolisiekar

Quote :

On a side note: it seems as though a complaint was launched because Toms hadn't reviewed an Ati card - if this let's you believe that it's biased then why don't you look elsewhere until they do such a review and then compare and instead of probing such a possibility rather confirm or deny it with facts.

The matter is when they'll post a review. If I was a consumer who wants to buy a card now and uses Tom get informed I wouldn't have known HD4870 is out there and i would go and buy a 9800GTX+ instead. Being a review site, and especially one of the great ones, is rather difficult because you have to be updated all the time. But this is no excuse.
Even guru3d which didn't get a card, due to AMD/ATI's stupid policy, got one to test...
Going to a store and buy a HD4870 is quite easy don't you think?

Quote :

Im surprised this is still going on. Is the reviews somewhat delayed? Id bet on it. Are the reviewers here at Toms unbias? Id bet on it. Did AMD's new Marketing head honcho just take over within the last 2 weeks? Yes. And did it add to some of the problems we are seeing? Id bet on that also. I think Toms needs a 4870 review, I dont care if it comes in late or not, that I agree with. The sustem builders reviews were done in May? OK, that makes sense. Dont go after the reviewers, its not their fault. If whomever is responsible for delayed reviews, I hope they understand what it takes to male it bleeding edge , cause new tech comes out all the time, and if they delay, its old and inappropriate by the time its released, like with the system builders using over priced, noncompetitive nVidia products. Whos happy with this? Not the reviewers, not me, not alot of people, and the ones who should be the most disatisified, the editors et al. Hopefully things will pick up and get in step, including AMD and their marketing

So, would you buy any of the low and mid end systems? The low and the mid end systems are without question not the best choice for their money. The high-end system though seems to be a nice system and I think still unbeatable. They shouldn't have published them!

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Message edited by johnie on 07-02-2008 at 12:14:51 PM

Reply to johnie

Quote :

The matter is when they'll post a review. If I was a consumer who wants to buy a card now and uses Tom get informed I wouldn't have known HD4870 is out there and i would go and buy a 9800GTX+ instead. Being a review site, and especially one of the great ones, is rather difficult because you have to be updated all the time. But this is no excuse.
Even guru3d which didn't get a card, due to AMD/ATI's stupid policy, got one to test...
Going to a store and buy a HD4870 is quite easy don't you think?

Anyone whom uses one site alone to justify a purchase of hardware is assinine. There are equally as good sites around - the issue is they can be neutral in their bias and as such they make it hard for you to read between the lines and figure out for yourself what you want. No, you need a hold my hand approach to tell you what to buy looking through your little tunnel that only focuses on one website. This would be where I'd branch a topic on social retardation but I'd best not confuse matter even more.

The world doesn't revolve around one ATI card. Nor does it revolve around your or anyone elses clock and time demands. Patience is a virtue you clearly are devoid of. Moaning brings you nowhere, because you just like me and everyone else here is a number to anyone trying to sell us something.

Reply to Vokofpolisiekar

johnie wrote :

The matter is when they'll post a review. If I was a consumer who wants to buy a card now and uses Tom get informed I wouldn't have known HD4870 is out there and i would go and buy a 9800GTX+ instead.

Well actually you wouldn't because you wouldn't have known about the GF9800GTX+ until it was in the HD4850 review which openly mentioned the HD4870 and the issue they had getting one, and more importantly you wouldn't be able to buy one yet, even if the do launch earlier than their July 16th due date, they didn't arrive before the HD4850 review did making the GTX+ a non-starter making the HD4850 a better purchase even before seeing any HD4870 benchies.
So that's a pretty lame excuse for a reason on your part, since your scenario would be impossible and just plain BS. :pfff:

------------------------------ You need a license to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) - RED GREEN. GA to SK
HD Freedom: 45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
Reply to TheGreatGrapeApe

So is there going to be a 4870 review or not? No tin foil hat accusations here, just wondering

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Reply to homerdog

" Anyone whom uses one site alone to justify a purchase of hardware is asinine". -Vokofpolisiekar

Uber-truth. If i plan on spending 300 dollars on a graphics card, i would probably know how to use the internet and search in more than one place.

------------------------------ e4400 2.75Ghz MSI G33 4x1GB DDR2-667@826 Palit 4870 3DMark 12112
Reply to customisbetter

homerdog wrote :

So is there going to be a 4870 review or not? No tin foil hat accusations here, just wondering

I don't know, I would hope so, but unfortunately I'm not involved, and those whom I know on this side of the pond don't get to do the major realeases anymore (much to my chargin).

I would expect one not too long from now, but it might now wait for one of those Diamond 'SUPER' HD4870s in order to add that to the mix. It would also make sense to wait for the dirver fixes and support for things like the updated UVD that are promised as arriving "shortly".

------------------------------ You need a license to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) - RED GREEN. GA to SK
HD Freedom: 45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
Reply to TheGreatGrapeApe

Say what you will about Tomshardware.com over here, but I do know their Taiwan site is kicking reviews of new tech out by the day... They were one of the first to do a review on the 4850 and now they have a nice short preview of what is to come later this year. http://www.tomshardware.tw/590,news-590.html Nehalem + 4850.

Message edited by CSA_Myth on 07-02-2008 at 09:41:14 PM

Reply to CSA_Myth

If Tom's does get around to doing a review of the 4870 I hope they can get their hands on the new 8.7 drivers or maybe a new BIOS. Something is clearly wrong with the idle power consumption of RV770 at the moment.

Message edited by homerdog on 07-02-2008 at 09:34:13 PM

Reply to homerdog

yeah i have been waiting for the 4870 reviews. BUT IT HASN'T COME YET.

Reply to BadMannerKorea

Perhaps they are having problems with getting translators? Obviously the asian websites are doing plenty of reviews.

Reply to randomizer

Actually, Toms as an international setup whoops as a whole, and needs to get their stuff together to compile, and coordinate some articles

------------------------------ I went drifting, thru the capitols of tin, where men cant walk and cant freely talk, and sons turn their fathers in
Reply to jaydeejohn

Uh the title of Tom's 4870 Review: 'Radeon HD 4870: Better Than the GTX 260!'

Seems to kind of fly in the face of this Tom's-an-Nvidia-fanboy argument. I am definitely lamenting that I chose the 9800 and then stepped up to the 260 - I should have waited! =

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Reply to scooterlibby

Something tells me Fedy took a look at this thread

Reply to homerdog

scooterlibby wrote :

Uh the title of Tom's 4870 Review: 'Radeon HD 4870: Better Than the GTX 260!'

Seems to kind of fly in the face of this Tom's-an-Nvidia-fanboy argument.

[:mousemonkey:1] Yep!

Quote :

I am definitely lamenting that I chose the 9800 and then stepped up to the 260 - I should have waited! =

Nah, dude I think you did a good job with that, and waiting rarely pays off, even in this case that would've been alot of time you didn't get to play with the GF9800. If you got play out of the GF9800 then you enjoyed that, and then if the GTX260 was the same or a slight bit more than that, that's fine it's like a bonus. Now even if the bonus is sometimes not as good as a new card, it's still a great deal when combined with the old.
IMO, It's not a huge win for either side, they are very close and pretty evenly matched, with the GTX260 taking a noticeable win in Crysis in the 30" category, which shows that it may be better suited for certain situations. Price is definitely a factor, but that's really just for people starting fresh.

I don't think this is like the HD2900XT or the GFFX or similar situation where there's a major issue with performance, I think the GTX 260 is still a very solid card, and I also think it's a much closer win/lose than the previous round. The thing about the THG review though is I'm doubtful that the 'Supah HD4870' will surpass the GTX280, it might make it close and the occasional winner, but in the areas that the GTX280 truly excels it really puts alot of distance between itself and the other cards. The HD4870 X2 though is anoter story and a bigger unknown IMO, and likely will arrive just in time to bury the GTX280, but then have to face the GTX-280+ (55nm) a few weeks/months later, which will likely be a nice close fight IMO. [:thegreatgrapeape:3]

------------------------------ You need a license to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) - RED GREEN. GA to SK
HD Freedom: 45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
Reply to TheGreatGrapeApe

Glad to see they finally posted their review!

Reply to satanpro

Im satisfied. Great read. And more to come as well!! Maybe now we can put this rumormill to bed

------------------------------ I went drifting, thru the capitols of tin, where men cant walk and cant freely talk, and sons turn their fathers in
Reply to jaydeejohn

Should Tomshardware be called Toms_way_its_meant_to_be_played ?? - Page 3

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