MS VISTA Spyware-Ultimate Edition
Forum Windows Vista : Vista General Discussion - MS VISTA Spyware-Ultimate Edition
I encourage anyone thinking of installing VISTA to read Peter Gutman’s article about VISTA.
“A Cost Analysis of Windows Vista Content Protection”
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut [...] a_cost.txt
I installed VISTA 6000 dual boot and have been playing with media content in VISTA.
Anyone that says the DRM does not affect regular media files does not know what they are talking about.
VISTA has a new resource monitor in task manager and I suggest loading it then try playing a DVD or CD and watch DRM kick in and gobble your CPU resources. You cannot disable the programs or even take ownership rights because MS has special ownership rights.
Creative has not been able to even write drivers for their sound cards for the reasons Peter Gutman outlines in his article. Go to the Creative website forum and just read the outrage about their most expensive sound cards that convert DTS, Dolby audio down to PCM audio. Direct Sound 3D will never work in VISTA according to Creative Labs.
http://forums.creative.com/creativ [...] d.id=Vista Read: Audio In Windows Vista which backs up everything Gutman says in his article.
I have a Audigy and it sounds like crap with Creative’s drivers installed with limited functionality.
In addition, MS Defender will phone home with MS about any software you install in VISTA. There are no software firewalls that work in VISTA yet so be forewarned.
Read the EULA when you install VISTA and they have the right to monitor your computer after you click agree.
IMHO-MS has gone over the line with the DRM measures with VISTA and it violates every Constitutional right you thought you had before you install it.
If you do not mind MS watching every thing you do on your computer go ahead and upgrade.
I refuse to let them enter my computer with impunity without a search warrant or at least warning you that they are watching you.
What amazes me is that reputable Tech Reviewers are not warning people about what MS is unleashing on their computers. Is should be called MS VISTA Spyware or VISTA Trojan Ultimate Edition.
If you decide to test VISTA, I suggest you unplug your internet connection.
And before someone accuses me of supporting piracy or warez, I buy my software and do not use pirated content. I have a legit copy just like the rest of the Beta Testers that submitted bug reports.
Well, the MS Defender can be easily killed. And as far as I tried, there are a lot of protected files but I took ownership of them to make them as I wish. I even deleted a lot of files. (I lost aero in such a deleting rampage though 
)
So I may be missing the point but watching DVDs or listening mp3 or viewing ripped TV series didn't have any DRM kicking in. Should I watch something specific? I use WMP to play the files.
I'm gonna find that DRM process and kick his ass just to see what happens.
Troll. Registered just to make the one post.
this is not much of a proplem,,, surfing the web this morning I found
a link on msn that I looked at ( nsa and vista security paper) and
a link on there mentioned that there is and has been a back door
key to your OS for the NSA ,,, if and is it useable,, ???
have heard of this before about an unknown key in windows
and speculation that this is what it is for,, also was said to
be a key for people working on secret or government projects
sorry if this is choppy at work and going back and forth
data updated back to it
Troll?
Why.
Did you read the EULA or I am going to have to quote the relevant sections for you?
I have been reading this site for years but this VISTA spying has my underwear in a wad.
If you do not mind MS scanning your hardrive and data mining then fine be my guest.
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Please go ahead and quote. Also quote from XP. Then also quote from Mac too.
Please also read what you quote before you post. And then also quote the laws relating to the EULA in the area you will operate the licence in. Please also read these before posting.
The abyss
and your point is?
The EULA for VISTA is unprecedented but do not take my word for it.
http://www.securityfocus.com/columnists/423/1
MS is using product activation to get around the Constitutional laws of the US. It used to require a search warrant to enter a persons house or property but MS thinks they have a right to enter your computer with impunity and search your hardrive for anything they see as a threat to "Trusted Computing". They do not even have to ring the doorbell because you clicked the EULA.
MS views all their customers as thieves until proven otherwise and David Marsh has said so in his presentations to Computer Professionals.
It checks your computer every week to ensure that your Trusted Computing certificates are authentic which is different than WinXP that only checked your serial when accessing win update or installing the software.
What's more they disclose that they have a root kit imbedded in VISTA. They call it Auto Root Update. Do you remember the Sony Rootkit fiasco? If you disable the Auto Root update your drivers and software cannot be verified using HSF and which will disable your computer from playing any “Trusted Content”.
Read it for yourself in his power point presentation on the new DRM measures Vista will implement.
http://download.microsoft.com/down [...] nHEC05.ppt
The draconian measures MS has embedding in Vista will result in Monopoly Control of the Personal Computer. Hardware, Software, and Content will all have to be licensed through MS to be active on your Computer and will have to be validated by MS to work or they simply yank their certificate rendering the hardware, software, or content useless.
If that is not the definition of a Monopoly, I do not know what is.
I fail to see how this benefits me as a computer user.
It certainly won't benefit you if you have somethign illegal to hide on your system.
| Quote : It certainly won't benefit you if you have somethign illegal to hide on your system. |
I am curious, Do you work for MS or do you derive your income from MS?
I do not have any illegal software on my computer but in the USA we have this document called the Constitution which gives all citizens certain rights:
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
The above 4th amendment is one of the reasons we threw the British out of the USA and formed our country.
Microsoft is violating the above right using the Internet to access your computer.
What concerns me is that you find it proper for a company to do this and it does not seem to concern you that your data is being analyzed, collated and sold to the highest bidder under the guise of "Trusted Computing".
The average user will not be aware they are doing this unless the people in the media start to do their job and inform the public.
Oh for god's sake don't start hiding behind the constitution. If it's so good, why has it been amended so many times. Can you demonstrate how the original signatories debated and documented a potential situation like this concerning an operating system, the internet, a home PC user and the internet.
I can fully respect the constitution and what it means in terms of an American. But you're stretching it bringing it into a debate over Vista.
unless your doing something pretty serious to draw attention to yourself say for example visiting known terrorist websites or doing some other crazy stuff why would anyone from the NSA or Microsoft or the FBI or anyone else like that even want to look on your hard drive lol just wouldnt make sense considerng there are however many million people out there using microsoft OS systems u know.
| Quote : unless your doing something pretty serious to draw attention to yourself say for example visiting known terrorist websites or doing some other crazy stuff why would anyone from the NSA or Microsoft or the FBI or anyone else like that even want to look on your hard drive lol just wouldnt make sense considerng there are however many million people out there using microsoft OS systems u know. |
I never said anything about the NSA or the FBI. Read the Vista EULA, review the planned implementation of Trusted Computing and its implications, then LOL, tell me I am full of crap.
MS will phone home once a week to ensure you are in compliance with the EULA and your copy is genuine all without user intervention. (That means without your permission)
http://wendy.seltzer.org/blog/arch [...] _user.html
It is pointless discussing this with you if do not care that a product you pay for will be in effect watching everything you do on your own computer.
Does your privacy mean anything to you or are you fine with a company reviewing your data without ringing the doorbell for permission to come in and look around?
Note-Even though I did not mention the NSA, MS did work with them on implementing the security in Vista. A computer scientist has discovered that MS gave the NSA a backdoor into previous MS releases. His name is Mark Russinovich . His company was recently bought by Microsoft and given a job there so I doubt he will be blogging about backdoors or root kits any time soon.
BTW-He was the guy that discovered the Sony Root Kit was installing with their music CD’s which resulted in a multi million lawsuit.
Do a Google.
Oh here:
http://www.schneier.com/blog/archi [...] cro_1.html
Ya, I agree, they are a pretty vicious company that likes to protect their profits.
I'm not gonna bullshit around and say i never pirate stuff. I'm glad I do! Its essential to try a game beofre you buy it these days, or I might have paid good money for Black and White 2, CivCity Rome and Doom 3. I will buy a copy if the game is good, but I like being able to try it out first. I also NEVER pay for music. Limewire is good enough for me. I dont listen to it that much tho, and if I had to pay for it, I wouldnt buy it, so its not like im stealing potential profits.
I use my computer for all kinds of stuff, and I don't like the idea that Vista is going to limit the usefulness of my computer to protect its 70 billion. I guess I'll have to stick with XP till someone smarter than me figures out a way to make Vista less of a prison snitch
Ben
| Quote : Ya, I agree, they are a pretty vicious company that likes to protect their profits.
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Whatever the pros and cons, I sincerely hope that Vista succeeds in the future helping prevent preventing theft by users like you without annoying the genuine legal users.
I'm off round your place now to steal your computer. But it's ok because I won't be using it very much.
Microsoft's Response:
http://windowsvistablog.com/blogs/ [...] swers.aspx
What MS did with Vista is scary. The more I educated myself with Vista with its' DRM and EULA the more I feel sick... MS is getting way out of line; I will not support it... SUSE 10.2 will be my main OS. Please forgive me for anything I may have said in the past in support of MS.
Edit: BadVista
http://badvista.fsf.org/
The_Mean_Marine
Yeah, I just read that response from David Marsh in 20 questions. It is all over the other forums this morning and being hotly debated.
Scroll down and read the comments and analysis from users about his comments.
I think the outrage expressed in the comments is just the beginning. David Marsh's responses are slick legalize type responses which in no way dispute what Peter Gutman wrote about DRM.
r3m0t tore his answers to shreads.
It is revealing that they waited so long and chose to answer the questions in a blog instead of the home page of Vista.
Apparently, business that are installing Vista, have been hitting them hard about the new DRM implementation and are none too excited about it especially since they were not exaxtly open about all the changes that have taken place.
What is really sad is that if MS had just told Hollywood that "content protection" was their problem, Vista would be a great upgrade.
I'm not going to dispute the comments untill i've had more time to research but what I think the Microsoft strategy is here is that they think they can get a hold on digital distribution like iTunes has and therefore be able to dictate terms back to Hollywood from now until the end of time.
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I totally agree... MS bucked to the buck instead of doing the right thing...
At the moment i can't see any problem if you don't use HD content. If you don't want to see the DRM in Vista don't use HD content simple.
That would require buying Vista which would give an appearance of my approval... I do not approve of MS's handling of the DRM so I cast my vote by not buying Vista. SUSE looking much better and what an excellent window (no pun intended) opportunity for Linux.
Why I personally wouldn't mind you switching to Linux (competition is always a good thing) its hardly like the execs go oh Vista isn't selling well this must be because of our stance on DRM. In reality how you choose to spend your money will have little effect on Microsoft's practices.
I know, and the bean counters at MS figure the same thing; so they piss-off a few million computer enthusiast, MS figures they can afford it because of all the money they were paid by the Movie studios IMO. I have zero evidence the entertainment community paid them but what other reasoning is there? MS broke ethics and integrity to follow though with what the entertainment community wanted. MS should of stay with what they do best… code an OS for a computer, not an embedded DRM multimedia Center to protect the rights of the Studios. Please do not get me wrong, I understand the need for the rights of the movie industry but it’s not MS responsibility to take my right as a computer owner to limit my ability to do as I wish with it. An OS is to operate a computer for the user not the entertainment community. MS placed a big gamble to do what they did and it may back fire. Greed is a killer.
| Quote : I'm not going to dispute the comments untill i've had more time to research but what I think the Microsoft strategy is here is that they think they can get a hold on digital distribution like iTunes has and therefore be able to dictate terms back to Hollywood from now until the end of time. |
I agree, but doesn’t anyone have any integrity anymore? Makes me sick… I sincerely hope MS has a very excellent reason for selling out.
Ha! integrity is very rare and really always has been, I thought that the xbox division had had an effect on Microsoft after they made several steps in the right direction but I count this as one backwards still it won't have a huge effect and should hopefully dissolve as the entertainment industries realise they are fighting a losing battle. The only safe way to show content is not to show it.
| Quote : MS will phone home once a week to ensure you are in compliance with the EULA and your copy is genuine all without user intervention. (That means without your permission) |
Not to nitpick, but don't they already do this with XP and WGA? I think when WGA was first released, everyone had the idea that some implementation of it would be included with Vista. This doesn't surprise me at all.
Except this time it will validate automatically in the background without you having to click windows update.
I do not allow my WinXp installation to auto update now until I decide what they want to put on my computer is ok.
I usually read the news groups to avoid updates that have caused others problems like the initial SP1 Update that screwed up so many people computers. Thankfully I avoided that mess.
I have a hardware firewall and have to open a port for them to contact my computer.
I am seriously reading about the various flavors of Linux and am going to install a copy to play with and maybe make the switch like so many others have been doing. Some people say that they really like Linux.
I am not a huge gamer so I do not see what I have to loose except some of my work programs that may or may not run.
I have purchased Win95, Win3.1, Win98, Win2000, and WinXp Pro. This may be my last time that I am going to upgrade.
From what I can find out, MS is using Vista to turn our PC's into just another appliance or set top box that they have total control over.
I will not be giving them my $300 next week, at least as it stands right now.
This is a facinating thread.
I too have been interested in seeing what MS's next O/S will bring to the table. When XP first came out I waited a long time before moving on from Windows 98--and I felt the fool for not doing it sooner when I realized how wonderfully stable XP was in comparison to 98.
At some point (unless we move to Linux) we'll all have to upgrade to Vista. I don't plan on being an early adopter--I'll wait a while until the inevitable 'bugs' get worked out (Vista SP1 on the way?) XP will stay on my system for a good long while yet....and even when I do first make the move to Vista it will be in a Multiboot environment (as I did when I moved from 98 to XP).
The DRM is interesting too. I too don't like the idea of having the software 'check up on me' to keep me honest. Constant intrusion is against our perceived way of life. No one liked it if everyday when we drive to work we have to pull over and let the police search our car--over and over--with no good reason (i.e 'probable cause').
On the flip-side, I can understand Microsoft want to crack down on XP piracy. WGA simply doesn't work. Everytime MS puts out a WGA update, its usually a maximum of 48 hours before someone figures out a 'workaround' or 'crack'. I suspect this will be the same way with Vista--but perhaps it will slow hackers down a bit.
You also have to consider you don't 'buy' Vista, or XP for that matter. You don't "Own" it. You 'license' it. Its not yours, you pay MS to use it, but your don't own it. So, technically speaking, even though its on your machine....its their property...
On the flip side I think this will be a good opportunity for Linux. The more user friendly that Linux gets....I think the more people will start to move over into that realm. MS does have gamers by the balls (so to speak) with their DirectX being proprietary. I know there are ways to get Windows games to work under Linux using Wine or Cedega...but its not easy for the layman computer newbie.
Not to mention the price of Vista....compared to XP its a HUGE price increase for each license. Apparently MS believes Vista to be so 'uncrackable' they can use their position as a Monopoly to increase the price of Vista without worry of people looking for less shady sources.
And finally....what's next? What about the O/S coming out to suceed Vista? My prediction: Annual License fees. Anti-Virus software companies require them on the basis they are always updating their software (e.g. new virus definitions). MS is always updating/patching their software. Why have a customer only pay once for a license when you could have them pay annually and support your patching process? With computer more and more tied into the internet....and DRM already a heavy part of Vista....it appears this would be EASILY enforceable?
Fascinating, yes... can't wait to see MS fall flat of its face. Sit back and watch the show unfold.
Those of you who are tired of being yanked around by Microsoft can try these other operating systems:
Mac OS X: http://www.apple.com/
Ubuntu Linux: http://www.ubuntu.com/
I feel so much better that I'm over Vista and moving on to Linux. Actually I'm very excited! Can't wait to rid MS for good.
I don't believe its as bad as the EULA makes out, Microsoft will have covered themselves in the EULA for all eventualities.
In reality there is not enough man-power in the world to do a PC by PC analysis of all the data they recieve, the best they will be able to do is to try and shut-down illegal copies and identify generic threats to the OS (neither of which I have a problem with).
Also bare in mind this data can not go out the door prehaps with the exception of law enforcement agencies, leglislation in some of the countries provides protection over personal data that can not be fully revoked with this simple a contract.
Also I think even in the US you have the principle of the smoking gun, which in effect says the law enforcement services require some reason to look at that data (even if they have access to it) before they can use it.
On the DRM side MS did not really have a choice, had they not built it in they could have risked law suits blaming them for enabling technologies.
I don't like the recent case history regarding enabling but the cases have increasingly going along the lines that if you are a company and you could have done something but you didn't then you are liable for the resulting fraud / looses.
Microsofts' layers would have insisted on enough being done to satisify the major stakeholders likely to sue, and by involving them and their technology in the O/S they will have mitigated the risk of litigation.
Also bare in mind these are short-term problems, the hardware and software will be here soon to enable the honest in the world to use everything they want without problems and the hackers, crackers and free information idealists will quickly develop fixes to enable the dis-honest to use everything they want without problems.
Give it six months and the status quo will have been restored, all that M/S will have done is provided themselves with a short-term revenue boost and a long-term mitigation of litigation.
| Quote : I am not a huge gamer so I do not see what I have to loose except some of my work programs that may or may not run. |
I'm deliberately going to ignore any of the other issues raised previously. This is a key difference for me - PC gaming with DX10 in 2007, and more importantly moving into 2008.
I'm not going to go into discussion on how evil / great MS was to restrict DX10 to Vista etc. Aero is great, the added security is great etc - all good. DX10 is what I'm more interested in though, and if Vista is required for that, then it is required.
For anything else, security aside and a nice GUI on the OS along with DRM concerns as every other person here appears to be an at least irregualr P2P user, I'm not too bothered.
DX10 is really very very good. Once the drivers have been written for the current hardware, and by then the hardware will have advanced again and by then the first REAL DX!0 games will be in late development - it's a good place to be.
If you're a hardcore gamer on current games, or a 'normal' PC user, stick with what you have. If you're a new buyer, dive in. If you're an enthusiast, dual boot like the rest of us until you're 100% ok with Vista over XP.
Performance improvements and visual quality in DX10 done correctly has to be seen to believed - it is absolutely massive. Therefore for early adopters and people who actually need it, Vista is a must for this alone.
That's my 2p - I'm going to leave this alone now at the risk of otherwise being nailed to a fan boy crucifix. If you cared you'd look this post up in 8 months time, but you won't...
I know that you are right... MS has something here and will play it to the hilt. My relationship with MS goes back to the early per-windows days. I like the old tinkering days without having to keep calling for re-activation. Sure wish MS came out with a Non-DRM Vista. I can not and will not tolerate DRM. Call me old fashion but that’s how I feel... anyway I'm excited to rejoin the Linux community where I can continue to tinker and play with computer hardware and software.
They will not remove the DRM because it has nothing to do with Hollywood, the DRM they have put in the kernel will enable them to pick and choose who gets to write software and make hardware.Trusted Computing!
On one of my installs for a dual boot, I installed, booting the DVD. A program pops up and calls home as soon as you start the install and gets certificates for your installation from the MS DRM center just like when you download a music file.
They designed Vista from inside out to support a new business model using DRM to begin a new business to add to their stream of income.
Symantec is being dragged and kicked into the new program and recently has issued several press releases about how they are being shut out.
This is what Monopolies do when they are allowed unrestricted tactics to engorge the bottom line.
| Quote : They will not remove the DRM because it has nothing to do with Hollywood, the DRM they have put in the kernel will enable them to pick and choose who gets to write software and make hardware. |
I hate to nitpick, but your argument is toast in a few months. Several Linux distributions have already said they will honor DRM restrictions in their coming releases if it becomes an industry standard/or incorporated into law - and I am pretty sure it will be. You will be stuck with this year's version of any OS forever if you take that stand or if you are someone who needs to hide what you are doing. As Tomshardware has pointed out, the security alone may make the upgrade reasonable for those who are open to change. For me, I have nothing to hide and I am technically savvy enough to kill the Defender process and activate offline through tech support if I need to = nonissue.
What is it with you guys that say I must have something to hide or illegal on my computer.
Nobody has the right to examine my computer without a court order or a search warrant in the USA. Certainly not some total stranger that works for MS.
Do you let total strangers walk in your house and go through your stuff or do you have something to hide?
See how silly your argument is....
DRM really has nothing to do with your security but the companies that are pushing this nonsense to increase their revenue stream.
I have a hardware firewall on my Internet connection and that is security. If you trust the Windows Firewall you are leaving yourself wide open to hackers which is what security is all about.
http://netsecurity.about.com/od/fi [...] 81804b.htm
So Microsoft's Firewall is basically useless according to experts. How is that for trust in a company you totally trust to examine your PC.
I wish some of you people would remember what Benjamin Franklin said;
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
I see both sides of the issue, but I have to agree with Scotty based on the 'Principle' of the issue--that being privacy. No one likes to have Big Brother watching, regardless of guilt or innocence. If you find that there is nothing wrong with being watched all the time I suggest moving to Iran or China...sounds like the kind of place you'd enjoy. Since you wouldn't be doing anything illegal you'd have nothing to worry about.
On a side note: Looks like DRM on Blu-Ray has been bypassed as well already.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/ [...] m_cracked/
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I normaly would not say this, but, WAY TO GO muslix64!!!!!!!
All this talk about `spyware', the NSA and even the constitution is more on the ball than you think it is.
For those with their ear to the ground it is also no coincidence that Bill Gates is side stepping into his medical research and away from the software scene while at the same time you cannot hold a Vista Conference without including Big Oil somewhere in the picture. Big oil being a huge player that can force Microsoft and Gates into the direction the world's elite want things to go.
Sounds like mumbo jumbo no doubt - so check out sites like http://www.mime11.com and http://www.911blogger.com and you might learn a few things if you click around.
As for Vista - I will be buying Ultimate towards the end of the year with a ton of new gear to install. That way hopefully plenty of kinks will be sorted and I'll have enough money to do it all with a top end system. Other than that - I expect to keep a pc with XP on it and a decent one with Suse10.2 or the latest version by then.
ps. I love this new site style.
I don't have Ultimate, I have Home Premium. Unless something is in there regarding this, then it doesn't affect me.
MP3 files play without a hitch, and seem to sound just a slight bit better then under XP Home. I'm watching a DVD right now, and the total CPU usage is less then 20% of one core, which doesn't bother me one bit.
The sound looks like it should, the movie plays as it should. Don't have any major problems with Vista as of yet. A few minor ones though.
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