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So all dark fantasies are a cry for help? I am not saying it wasn't a cry, but some people are just creative. There is a fine line, you have to watch social behavior as well as papers. Did he ask for help? Did he walk into a counselor's office and say "I'm having trouble?" did he ask his parents? What did he do (I don't know the full extent of what he did)?

It is better to show the grief that comes from such a tragedy than to keep showing the shooter. With the publicity this shooter is getting it gives others in the same mental state the idea that that may be the way to get peoples attention. The media does not need to give such violent people the spot light to this extent. It exacerbates the problem.

What good does it do to have people trained when most people would hide? When someone has a gun pointed in your face you can't just run up and take him out. That isn't how it works, that is how you get killed. Would it help being trained? Definitely, would it cure the ills? No, you still have to have people brave enough to stand up to a shooter. There are alot more factors to consider than just are you trained.

The blame rests with those who are responsible. It does no good to blame factors that weren't a cause and in the end it all rests on him. It is not an emotional outburst to place blame, but to allocate responsibility. If we never placed blame we could never attempt to prevent these crimes because we wouldn't know what to look for. If bullying is to blame (it may or may not be) then we should look out for bullies in school. If bad parenting is to blame, then maybe we should educate parents, though we can't require them to do anything as parents generally.

That isn't taking responsibility for his actions, that is getting out of taking responsibility by avoiding restitution. He copped out.

To know what people are going to do about we must first understand what caused it.

Reactions come post incident, why not be proactive? Try to avoid as many of these problems as possible. Bad people do exist but the better we understand them and can identify them the less likely we are to have such a tragedy. Can we avoid them all? Never, but we can minimize their impact.

What you are advocating is something just short of military like training for the general public. People aren't calm when such violent incidents take place, to think otherwise is just ludicrous. We have trained professionals for such incidents, they are called police. We can't all be as prepared as them, which is nearly what you are suggesting. People are emotional creatures by nature and many can't keep them in check when such events go down because they come by surprise and any amount of practice doesn't compare to the effects of the situation in reality.

Hmm campus police can't be everywhere and it is a big campus. I see our college police all the time on various parts of the campus, but they can't be everywhere instantaneously. Also, they have to plan their attack, they don't want to get gunned down because they rush in disorganized. They have to balance their life with the lives of others.

The students and teachers initially were caught off guard and frightened causing them to freeze and not think clearly. People aren't used to such volatile situations and to think otherwise is nuts. Yes there are things that can be done, some jumped out of the 2nd story window from what I heard.

Do you really think locks would save them? 1 bullet in the door blows the lock right out. No doubt it might have helped, but to have an emergency lock down system on every single door on campus would cost more than it is worth (in general). A university doesn't have unlimited resources, it has to balance spending/protection/educational resources, etc.

You put alot of faith in peoples nerves, faith that is misplaced. You can also argue any smart gunman has a spare pistol that is kept fully loaded in case he is rushed during reloading. He could drop the gun being reloaded, kill the person rushing and then continue reloading.

Such requirements get into the realm of the government regulating our actions and cannot be taken lightly.

I see a common element here which I have suspected other generation X/Y's are exhibiting. We hate TV! I mean, it really stinks so bad. I cannot understand how the networks make money. Who watches that rubbish. Parents are worried about their kids and TV, but NO ONE WATCHES IT.

You can save your $50 a month, and use that to get your favorite shows online. Heck, for $15, you can get a Blockbuster movie A DAY! (that's right, if you rotate them well).

There is nothing useful that TV provides me. For kids, its probably healthier to read the news online (skills vs. brain dead watching but not really listening). Its hard to turn news into hype when you are reading it vs. watching it. I remember a Fox News reporter in week 1 of the Iraq invasion, standing next to a oil well that had been blown up, with flames blowing over his head, him ducking and diving, shouting, loud noise, reporting on the events of the day etc. Its hard to do that when its in black and white, and also harder to "lie".

One BIG negative I have found about research, reading etc. and doing things online is actual MEMORY RETENTION. Do you guys agree now that we are bombarded with so much info, that its really hard to retain the data. I try to remember 3 facts a day, but process 100s. Im not sure if I am better or worse (visual retention is a lot easier to manage).

Comments!!! I open the floor up.

PS. How do I block out Dr. Phil content from ever making its way into my path of hearing/vision. I dont want to sit on a bus and ever see that guys face. I need a Dr. Phil firewall for life. That guy just gives me the shi*ts.

interesting thread. A few points.
Dr phil while occasionally correct in a very general way feels it is appropriate to impose his values upon others. That is one of the reasons people fled to this land some 200 years ago.

Parenting.
There has been only ONE negative outcome to women entering the workforce in america. Over the last 35 years corporate america has eroded wages such that it is now nearly impossible for a family to survive on one income. I firmly believe that women working is great yet I find it profoundly sad that most no longer have the CHOICE to stay home and rear a family as corporate america no longer supports americas family over ever increasing margins.

regardless and bottom line- parents not in tune to raising their children are a real life tangible leading cause for kids shit behavior today and the over exposed media coverage that more often than not overexposes and indirectly glorifies bad behavior.

Lots of folks are big into excuses today as well as a rationalization for bad behavior. "my kids know more about the computer than I do" this is rediclous, if you are not capable of spending the time with your kids or if learning on your own is not important enough to you at least refuse to own one. make them go to the local library and hope that the admin there is at least somewhat competent. Of course that puts us right to my last point. IT IS NOT THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE STATE TO RAISE YOUR G&^^%AMN CHILDREN. get hip get involved love and spend time with them and if not......plan on visiting them in prison or the ground, or possibly a underpass near you.

BTW I love my daughter dearly and am having a grat time raising her.

Honestly, I tend to be a visual/auditory learner so reading comprehension is hard for me. It takes alot of effort for me to remember something I read, but if I see it or hear it it generally sticks better. Every person is different in this regard and it is a matter of knowing yourself.

Only reason I keep TV around is for social reasons, honestly.Unfortunately I have to make small talk during work and the only way I will know what 1/2 the people I work with are talking about is if I see it on TV. I hate small talk but the only way to get through it is to have the TV on in the background while I am doing real work online/reading.

Do I wish TV would go away? about 95% of it, but there are still some quality programs like the History channel and Discovery channel. Other than that... DIE TV DIE lol. *Unplugs cable from wall*

The fact is that life is pretty boring for most of us. The days of plowing a field, hunting for food and raising a family are long gone. Now people have so much free time on their hands they don't know what to do with it. TV, computers and other forms of entertainment are distractors of time. They make us forget about how boring our lives really are.

Just go on YouTube and watch some of the videos and commentary made using the Hubble Telescope and you will realize when compared to the universe we are all pretty insignificant.

Billions of galaxys! There must be other intelligent life out there pondering the same questions we are now.

Somewhere with freedom of speech (They have the freedom to speak it, and I have the freedom of choice to listen or not to listen, since a video game is a type of media, then it would probably fall under speech.)

Ditto! you are correct. The deterioration of the family unit is not just happening in this country but it is happening all over the world.

All good points.

But what are we to expect people to do in a situation like this? Be terrified and sit there and die? We aren't rabbits, we're human beings, the smartest animals on the face of the planet by a large margin. Even a bunny will fight back when cornered (and I have scars to prove it xD). I do expect more from human beings. I'm often disappointed but expecting people to just sit there and die and not encourage people to do otherwise is the least pro-active thing we could do as a society.

...they were only on the second story? Being shot vs. jumping from the second story window and how many people choose being shot? Did they not even know that it's possible to jump from the second or third story of a building with little training and sustain no major injuries (I've jumped from 8, 10, and 15 feet before, it's not anything crazy)? Certainly in a panic you might not think to dive out the window, but this was 2 hours long. This isn't a case of lack of "battle nerves", it's a lack of physical education. I love video games, but PE is important. It's quite possible the shooter knew that his peers had a lack of PE and was emboldened by that ineptitude.

Physical training IS important. You don't have to dedicate your life to it just take some PE classes that focus on channeling ability instead of silly sports (I actually took step aerobics to satisfy my college's PE requirement).

It's not a matter of having courage enough to charge an armed opponent at that point (I had assumed they were trapped), it's a mater of having confidence (or at least basic knowledge) in your own physical abilities. People often assume they are capable of far less then they really are due to lack of training. Most of the people involved here seemed to assume they couldn't do anything to protect themselves so they did nothing and they got shot without even trying to run away. THAT is the real tragedy here. That so many students were killed without even putting up a fight. This wasn't a blitz of showing up with guns blazing. He was walking around for an hour, reloading several times.

A little training could go a long way. He didn't have an automatic rifle with a large clip and an affixed bayonete with a hand gun backup, just a hand gun (or two, I heard he might have had a second handgun, dosen't change much). He shouldn't have been able to walk around without armor or cover and cause so much damage with only a handgun.

As for police-state arguments: they do it in switzerland and south korea and they don't have these problems there. Colleges make all kinds of requirements. A few hours per week to learn one of the most essential life skills, self-defense, is hardly militaristic. They require PE, they generally require you take some kind of an art class such as pottery, they usually require an obscure history class as well. None of those are important as single classes as life-changing events. Self-defense training is. There is plenty of room for a few hours per week of marshal arts training without any significant changes to day-to-day academia.

You make great points SuperFly03, and I believe, in the context of most western societies, you are absolutely right. But we should fix that problem, not accept it.

The problem with that statement (while valid) is that animal rely on instincts and have no conscious awareness. Animals aren't aware of the repurcussions of death and pain. Animals only realize the pain afterwards.

As humans we are fully aware of what is going on (relatively speaking, some people just day dream all day lol) and know that if we try something it might hurt, it might kill us, it might cripple us. We have to wrestle with emotions and societal beliefs that we shouldn't be violent unless it is war. violence isn't tolerated in day to day life, so when something like this happens we aren't sure what to do.

That being said, I would do something, in all likelihood I might lose my life while trying, but I will damned if I am going to let some disturbed bastard tell me when I am going to die. F*** that, I would at least try to disarm him and if I died while doing it, I would know that I chose to not sit back and be controlled.

That is who I am, I have an internal locus of control.

Again, this goes back to my point about emotional/physical awareness. I agree they probably should have jumped, but the windows were actually quite narrow if you look at the pictures of the buildings. Honestly, I don't know how easy they were to get open, but they definitely didn't facilitate a quick escape.

Also, from what I understand (which could be in error), the first victim was in the dorm and then he left and went to the post office, then continued killing in the engineering building. So I think the majority of the deaths came in the engineering building and I really don't know how long that particular part lasted. It wasn't a straight up gunning for 2 hours.

PE is required here too.

Percentage wise I would say a majority of students here exercise on a semi-regular basis. It isn't physical training, but it is something. I don't disagree with you that some sort of physical activity is necessary. No argument here.

Confidence can't be bestowed, it can only come from within and only that person knows how to build it. We should try and build confidence in people, but in the end it is up to them.

He did have 2 handguns. Some students managed to barricade the door and keep him out.

You make good points, and yes some change is necessary, but I am being realistic in my view of society. We can't change the world in a day, but if we change ourselves, one day that change will be reflected in society.

Spot on. It's like he's pretending to try and understand people and their problems but after you hear his conclusion it's like he made up his mind in the first 10 seconds what he was going to say and the rest was just an act to gain their trust. He's a phony just like Dr. Laura (he's just a lot more polite about it which possibly makes it even more insidious).

He'll gladly accept a Swinger couple on his show (a pretense that he's going to try and help them) and spend half an hour unearthing various problems with their relationship many of which have nothing to do with sex (at which point I was really impressed with his patience and seeming desire to get to the root of the problem) but then he sums it up in 2 minutes at the end with "bible says extramarital sex is bad". Which was, I'm sure, as much a shock to them as it was to me and everyone else in the audience as I had never heard such a thing previously

Much like Jack Thompson he's all rhetoric and right-wing affirmation but doesn't seem to even have the ability to do it intelligently. In the example given above their relationship was so messed up he could have royally ripped them and their lifestyle to shreds but instead went with "bible says it's bad". Jack Thompson could have also done a much better job of blocking GTA if he wasn't such a crazy jerk and incompetent laywer (I saw the video of him having charges brought against him for harassing and slandering a judge, he's really childish to say the least). I guess I should be thankful that the Jacks and Phills of the world are inept but it doesn't seem to stop a lot of people from listening to them...

Fish,

As an adult (OK, maybe close to middle aged adult), I find that these games are offensive. However if these games are meant for a target audience then that target audience should be targeted.

GTA is very adult... But it most certainly targets children...

This is the problem I have.

Magazines have been targeted towards adults and for the most part that works.

What I find difficult is people that make comments like "I let my four year old play Unreal Tournament 2k4 it is such a great game. It is funny he runs around the house killing everyone with his rocket launcher". Or statements like "I play with my two and three year old on my lap so they get time to be with daddy".

These types of statements "true statements from 2k4 forums" are the ones that truly worry me. When I go to a theater to see Kill Bill and there are no less than 5 children of age 9 or less there (with mommy and daddy or mommy and boyfriend) I kinda get upset. That is no place for children. The little girl behind us finally started to cry and dad/boyfriend was upset that he had to take her out of the theater (he cussed about not being able to watch the movie).

So it is NOT that this stuff is available. It is that it should be age appropriate. Parents should be a LOT more careful about what they allow little kids to see. I am sorry if it inconveniences people as a parents to have to wait or get a babysitter to see an R rated movie.

My 2 cents...

This is like having a mindset to take the family for dinner and a movie:

Movie first: SAW
Dinner second: Sports Bar so dad and mom can eat AND get blitzed.


Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr....

I now ask people before the movie point blank if they think that it is appropriate for their kids to see it. If the wife is there sometimes I get the correct response and they leave.

Who is up for family night I hear Resident Evil is playing!!