The Short List: the Best Gaming Videocards for the money - Page 4
Forum Graphic & Displays : Graphics Cards - The Short List: the Best Gaming Videocards for the money
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I feel your pain, man. I'm in Canada.
All I can say to you is, ebay is your friend. I got my X1800 XL in Canada for $340 USD brand new from a trusted etailer. I've also ordered cards from the US... just keep your eye out for deals.
Sure, it's worth getting an X1800 XL or 7800 GT. Just get them used, at a deal. Should be able to find 7800 GTs on ebay in the low $200s.
Lawl, ebay is worthless for us amercians. shipping is slow, prices are high and parts are lower quality (unless new)
Hi Cleeve,
I would recommend the 6600GT over the X1600Pro because it is a more reliable gaming card. Both cards perform almost the same in average, but the X1600Pro tend to have some games it favors and some games it totally hates, such as Call of Duty 2 or Doom 3. Sure, for its price, it is not a bad investement, and it might even be considered superior because of its better video playback. But the 6600GT is the better gaming solution.
I basically agree with you Asik, and if you read the commentary in the recommendations those caviats are pointed out.
That's why both cards are recommended for AGP in the $100 to $150 range.
Just as a note, recently, retail X1600XTs just passed into the $150US range, so, though they're just barely in there, you may want to consider it. ($150US X1600XT; OEM is $149US)
Likewise, when comparing the X1600 cards to their competitors, do remember that the difference primarily lies within how their shader-to-texture layouts are; nVidia is clearly convinced that texture performance is the most important, while ATi is adamant that pixel shaders are the most important part of gaming framerates.
However, in the real world, it all depends on the game you select; ones like Quake 4 and Call of Duty 2 are rather texture-heavy; sure, they use a lot of shaders, but those pale in comparison to the texturing that's laid over the game. Likewise, such games will perform better on nVidia's cards.
On the other side, you have games like F.E.A.R., and as it would appear, also The Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion. These are shader-intensive games; their texturing does look nice, but they go all-out when it comes to shaders, with any given object being subject to not merely normal-mapping, but parralax-mapping as well, and countless others as well, even BEFORE you get to the HDR part. Likewise, it would seem that these games would perform better on ATi's "lopsided" X1600 and X1900 cards.
Hopefully X1900XT/XTX prices will drop to keep up pace with 7900's. I'd love to pick one up
Well, it appears that they've already done so; The X1900XTX is currently the same price as the 7900GTX, (though that is, in part, due to people snatching up all the lower-cost 7900GTX cards) in part due to a "mysterious" price slash on the X1900s that occured around the time of the 7900 launch.
What's a real shame is that ATi was doing so well to have the X1900s availible before their official launch, yet the X1800GTO is nowhere to be seen. A real shame, as they were headed in the right direction... (and nVidia, with the 7800GTX 512, had been heading to look like ATi)
| Quote : What's a real shame is that ATi was doing so well to have the X1900s availible before their official launch, yet the X1800GTO is nowhere to be seen. A real shame, as they were headed in the right direction... (and nVidia, with the 7800GTX 512, had been heading to look like ATi) |
The X1800 GTO was never supposed to be here yet. It was launched with a future availability date, which thay explained at launch.
They never claimed immediate availability. As long as it gets here by the date supplied (end of the month I believe), it's all as promised.
I vote that the 7600 GT should switch places with the x850 xt for the price category they are in.
A post I made earlier:
http://forumz.tomshardware.com/har [...] 78310.html
What do you guys think?
-Ian
hm....yeah I support if the 7600 is comparable to a 6800ultra which pwned the x850.
yeah wait a little because x1800gtos are supposed to come out soon and will most likey abolish the x850xts, the only have 12 pixel pipelines but will have the same hyperthreaded core.
Yeah, I would say that it comes damn close, looking at these benchies
http://www.anandtech.com/video/sho [...] =2717&p=10
Keep in mind all the anandtech benchmarks are done with 4xFSAA which takes a bigger hit on the 7600 GT 128 bit memory and lower memory bandwidth than that of the cards with 256 bit memory interfaces. (ie the x850xt). And If the anti aliasing was turned down to 2, i think the performance of the 7600 GT would shine even more.
-Ian
EDIT: Yeah the X1800gto will be an interesting addition to the pool... Will have to see what the pricing is on it, etc.
| Quote : Just as a note, recently, retail X1600XTs just passed into the $150US range, so, though they're just barely in there, you may want to consider it. ($150US X1600XT; OEM is $149US) |
X1600XTs are not available in AGP as far as I know. The X1600PRO is, which is why it tied between the X1600PRO and the 6600GT in the $100 - $150 AGP category. However, would the X1600XT be a good contender against the X800GTO in the PCI-E category even though it only has a 128-bit interface vs X800GTOs 256-bit??
| Quote : Likewise, when comparing the X1600 cards to their competitors, do remember that the difference primarily lies within how their shader-to-texture layouts are; nVidia is clearly convinced that texture performance is the most important, while ATi is adamant that pixel shaders are the most important part of gaming framerates.
|
As the list points out, choosing the card depends on which games you play.
| Quote : Just as a note, recently, retail X1600XTs just passed into the $150US range, so, though they're just barely in there, you may want to consider it. ($150US X1600XT; OEM is $149US) |
X1600XTs are not available in AGP as far as I know. The X1600PRO is, which is why it tied between the X1600PRO and the 6600GT in the $100 - $150 AGP category. However, would the X1600XT be a good contender against the X800GTO in the PCI-E category even though it only has a 128-bit interface vs X800GTOs 256-bit??
| Quote : Likewise, when comparing the X1600 cards to their competitors, do remember that the difference primarily lies within how their shader-to-texture layouts are; nVidia is clearly convinced that texture performance is the most important, while ATi is adamant that pixel shaders are the most important part of gaming framerates.
|
As the list points out, choosing the card depends on which games you play.
I think so since the X800GTO's are good OC'ers and some are unlockable.
| Quote : Keep in mind all the anandtech benchmarks are done with 4xFSAA which takes a bigger hit on the 7600 GT 128 bit memory and lower memory bandwidth than that of the cards with 256 bit memory interfaces. (ie the x850xt). And If the anti aliasing was turned down to 2, i think the performance of the 7600 GT would shine even more. |
EXACTLY! That's the point though, isn't it?!
Do we want to lower resolutions and AA to levels so the 7600 GT will win a comparison? For what purpose, just so we can declare the 7600 better? Why, because it's newer?
The X850's ability to use those high levels of AA make it very desirable... and so it is recommended over the 7600 GT.
AA and AF are universal image quality options, but debating SM 2.0b over 3.0 is hardly definitive.
The 7600 GT is a great card, but compared to the X850 XT it falls short because the X850 XT is so damn good with that memory bus.
The X850 XT supply will dry up sooner or later thoguh, and the 7600 GT will likely take it's place as far as recommendations.
and cards even at those levels choke with sm3.0 applications, correct me if im wrong. i also like to have some lee way with fps so that when i get in a fire fight it wont start to choke and you can do that with the x850xt and not with the 7600gt because of the memory bus.
| Quote : Keep in mind all the anandtech benchmarks are done with 4xFSAA which takes a bigger hit on the 7600 GT 128 bit memory and lower memory bandwidth than that of the cards with 256 bit memory interfaces. (ie the x850xt). And If the anti aliasing was turned down to 2, i think the performance of the 7600 GT would shine even more. |
EXACTLY! That's the point though, isn't it?!
Do we want to lower resolutions and AA to levels so the 7600 GT will win a comparison? For what purpose, just so we can declare the 7600 better? Why, because it's newer?
The X850's ability to use those high levels of AA make it very desirable... and so it is recommended over the 7600 GT.
AA and AF are universal image quality options, but debating SM 2.0b over 3.0 is hardly definitive.
The 7600 GT is a great card, but compared to the X850 XT it falls short because the X850 XT is so damn good with that memory bus.
The X850 XT supply will dry up sooner or later thoguh, and the 7600 GT will likely take it's place as far as recommendations.
ja, a lot of games still use SM2.0...HDR in hl2 was also built with SM2.0 just so it would work with old-generation ATi cards =/
Besides, what would a mid range card like a 7600gt be using HDR/SM3.0 on anyway? It would get owned..
| Quote : Keep in mind all the anandtech benchmarks are done with 4xFSAA which takes a bigger hit on the 7600 GT 128 bit memory and lower memory bandwidth than that of the cards with 256 bit memory interfaces. (ie the x850xt). And If the anti aliasing was turned down to 2, i think the performance of the 7600 GT would shine even more. |
EXACTLY! That's the point though, isn't it?!
Do we want to lower resolutions and AA to levels so the 7600 GT will win a comparison? For what purpose, just so we can declare the 7600 better? Why, because it's newer?
The X850's ability to use those high levels of AA make it very desirable... and so it is recommended over the 7600 GT.
AA and AF are universal image quality options, but debating SM 2.0b over 3.0 is hardly definitive.
The 7600 GT is a great card, but compared to the X850 XT it falls short because the X850 XT is so damn good with that memory bus.
The X850 XT supply will dry up sooner or later thoguh, and the 7600 GT will likely take it's place as far as recommendations.
Thinking the same thing.
With 256 bit bus and 16 pipelines X850XT is superior to 7600GT(especially with AA and AF on at higher resolutions).
I think one needs to remember that X850XT is released to be a top range card in the market not long ago, but 7600GT is released to be a mid range card. (I remember gforceFX 5700 to be more expensive then 9700pro when it was released while 9700pro was definitely superior)
Although 7600GT supports SM3.0 and HDR, I don't believe that this card will give satisfying performance when HDR is on(and the quality between 2.0b and 3.0 is unnoticable). Hence this support doesn't mean much for people like me. Nvidia does this all the time for midrange cards. Card supports the new feautes but it is not possible to get performance when those features are on. (Also HDR and AA cannot be turned on the same time and I choose AA over HDR since AA adds lots of quality to the image. I can prefer HDR if I can go higher resolutions but again 7600GT is no good for that. Moreover HDR implemented with sm2.0b looks good to me for now)
If 7800GT drops to 200$ range I think it will be a great buy, but for now I think I will go with X850XT which is nearly 40$ less then 7600GT(I hope it doesn't last until I purchase it 
).
| Quote : hm....yeah I support if the 7600 is comparable to a 6800ultra which pwned the x850. |
What hole have you been hiding in? With the primary exceptions of Doom3/Quake 4, Chronicles of Riddick, and on occasion, Splinter Cell 3, even the plain X800XT bested the 6800ultra. The X850XT only widened the gap there, and narrowed it in the abovementioned three games. (though some mention might be given to Unreal Tournament 2004, where the 6800ultra contests with the X800XT, though not the X800XT PE)
| Quote : X1600XTs are not available in AGP as far as I know. The X1600PRO is, which is why it tied between the X1600PRO and the 6600GT in the $100 - $150 AGP category. However, would the X1600XT be a good contender against the X800GTO in the PCI-E category even though it only has a 128-bit interface vs X800GTOs 256-bit?? |
I don't recall suggesting it for the AGP list, as I've yet to see an AGP X1600XT. I do make clear what interface the cards I'm looking at are for.
At any rate, the X1600XT does suffer due to having a 128-bit memory bus compared to the X800GTO's 256-bit bus, but keep in mind that this difference is EQUAL to having a doubled RAM speed; the X800, the card actually listed there, has a 700MHz clock speed for the memory, compared to 1400MHz for the X1600XT. Hence, they actually both have the same memory bandwidth. (~22.4GB/sec) Note that the X800GTO actually is different than the "X800GTO 128MB;" the real GTO has memory clocked at 1000MHz, while the 128MB version, better known as the X800, has it clocked at the abovementioned 700MHz.
| Quote : Keep in mind all the anandtech benchmarks are done with 4xFSAA which takes a bigger hit on the 7600 GT 128 bit memory and lower memory bandwidth than that of the cards with 256 bit memory interfaces. (ie the x850xt). And If the anti aliasing was turned down to 2, i think the performance of the 7600 GT would shine even more. |
Generally, a higher framerate than 60 doesn't matter, and hence, if there is a setting where, comparing cards, you can get 60fps on one of them, that's the setting to use. It doesn't matter if the 7600GT can beat the X850XT @800x600 without AA; you'd be getting 200+fps in almost any game there on even the X850XT, and that's a pointless level of performance, and hence, a worthless benchmark.
People don't buy an expensive ($150-200US is definitely expensive, even though most of us here, including myself, have spent considerably more on our latest cards) card for its performance at a pathetically low setting. Rather, you select it to get 60fps at a certain setting, or failing that, some good, predetermined framerate, at certain settings. Hence, FPS at a certain settings matters not, what matters is how high settings you can get with a certain FPS.
| Quote : ja, a lot of games still use SM2.0...HDR in hl2 was also built with SM2.0 just so it would work with old-generation ATi cards =/
|
Actually, it was built on SM 2.0 because that's what Valve had been working with for years, and SM 3.0 didn't exist when HDR was developed for the PC. Like with Oblivion's basic HDR components, they're using SM 2.0 for them because that's what was availible when they made it. Not to mention, unlike almost all games implementing HDR, (including, but far from limited to, Far Cry, Splinter Cell 3, Serious Sam 2, etc.) they didn't simply license out OpenEXR, which frankly, in my opinion, is a terrible form of HDR; it appears to have been made for movies, not games, and even on cards that support it, it performs very poorly.
| Quote : Generally, a higher framerate than 60 doesn't matter, and hence, if there is a setting where, comparing cards, you can get 60fps on one of them, that's the setting to use. It doesn't matter if the 7600GT can beat the X850XT @800x600 without AA; you'd be getting 200+fps in almost any game there on even the X850XT, and that's a pointless level of performance, and hence, a worthless benchmark. |
Yes, this is something all to often overlooked.
For example, lets say you're benching with max detail and 4xAA 16xAF:
'Card A' gets 240 fps in quake, 320 fps in Half Life, and 32 fps in FEAR
'Card B' gets 110 fps in Quake, 110 fps in Half Life, and 45 fps in FEAR
'Card B' is more desirable...
Who cares if you're getting 320 or 110 fps in a game? You couldn't see a difference in the two, a 75 hz monitor is only showing you 75 fps no mater what...
But 32fps vs 45fps makes a BIG difference... it's those tough games that drag a card to it's knees that should make you think about your videocard buying decision, not which card get's the absolute highest fps.
| Quote :
|
Well, yeah you are right, but soon enough, if not already, the x850xt will NOT be able to play games at 4xAA and high settings. So the question is, do people turn down effects and resolution, or anti aliasing first. I would say the majority of people would rather play 1280x1024 on max settings with no FSAA, then 1024x768 medium with 4xAA. Anyways, I see where you're coming from, just thought I would try and explain my case a bit more.
Thus, because of its inability to handle games at maximum settings with 4xAA, I voted for the 7600, which also cannot run games at max settings with 4xAA. However, what follows, is people turning down the graphics settings, turning off AA, and therefore the 7600 will perform better.
Also, I can't find the X850XT anywhere for the price range its in, found a refurbished x800 xt on newegg for $218.00, and local stores sell them for $330+ in Canada (CAD).
Also I just noticed there is a gap in the price ranges. It goes from $150-$200, and then $250-$300. Most of the 7600 GTs found on newegg are in the range of $209-$225.
The X800 will be able to use AA far longer than the 7600GT though. No matter how you slice it, it's the better card.
As far as prices, they've changed recently, so I'll have a look. X800XT's can be found new on newegg for $219. Like I said, they are bound to run out sooner or later. So the list will keep changing.
Thanks for pointing out the price range gap though, I'll look into that.
No problem, btw good work on the list 
*** MARCH 17, 2006 UPDATE ***
Well, Ian get's his wish... the 7600 GT is now top spot in the $150 to $200 category, as X800XTs and X850XTs are getting harder and harder to find.
7600 GTs can be had on newegg all over the place for $189, nice deal.
X800XTs can still be had for $220 new on newegg, still a solid card in the price range and the title holder for $200 to $250 in PCIe.
In the $250-300 PCIe category, you have a tie between the X1800XT and the 7900GT, yet I haven't been able to find an X1800XT for under $300 with the exception of the Sapphire 256 version at Newegg. Are you basing the price on what you think the future will hold? Has it been officially announced that ATI will drop prices to below $300?
I'm basing it on newegg, mostly, and if it's there you can buy it.
7900 GTs are running in short supply as well. But you can find them.
Congrats on your 4500th post by the way!
Hey, thanks man!
Where does the X800XL fall?
It has a slower 400mhz clock as opposed to XT.(I'm sure you know)
nonetheless I see it nowhere on your page.
(I can tell you from personal experience the 7600GT beats it @1024x768 w 2xAA on)
X800 XL isn't on the list because it's overpriced compared to other similarly performing cards.
It performs a bit better than an X800 GTO, and a bit less than a 7600 GT.
What about the Gainward Bliss 512MB 7800GS that actually is a GT because it has 20 Pipes. I can only find UK prices but it should be the best AGP card over $200. It performs magnificantly with over 7000+ in 3DMark05.
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=30502
Here are some benchies to go by. Pretty nice card for AGP users if you ask me. I am sure it will be pricey but it will still be the best AGP Card for the money as no other card can perform like that for AGP, no?
iLLz
iLLz wrote:
| Quote : What about the Gainward Bliss 512MB 7800GS that actually is a GT because it has 20 Pipes. I can only find UK prices but it should be the best AGP card over $200. It performs magnificantly with over 7000+ in 3DMark05.
|
Yeah, but what we are saying is that it isn't worth it to put $200+ into AGP, since it is dead for one, and also since the cards are priced higher in respect to PCI-EX. Your money would be better spent on a PCI-Ex board and a PCI-EX video card.
Beautifully crafted, I couldn't agree with your reccomendations more. Make it a sticky.
it has been a sticky since forever..
LOOK! LOOK! LOOK!
Hear ye, hear ye, hear ye!!!
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod [...] 6814102013
ATI X1800GTO @ $231!!!
| Quote : iLLz wrote:
|
Yeah, but what we are saying is that it isn't worth it to put $200+ into AGP, since it is dead for one, and also since the cards are priced higher in respect to PCI-EX. Your money would be better spent on a PCI-Ex board and a PCI-EX video card.
Oh sure, agp is dead...yeah, yeah, how long has that been said? Over half the market still uses agp and there are at least six companies selling a 7800GS card.
LOL!
Better late than never.
| Quote : LOL!
|
Remember that on all the posts, the Number of posts listed will change, regardless of when it was posted. Currently I have 431 posts, but when you read this post, it may be significantly higher. He had 4500 posts when I congratulated him.
***MARCH 30, 2006 UPDATE ***
Added Gainwards 7800 GS 'GT' as honorable mention for being the fastest AGP card on the planet.
As I see more benches comparing of the X850 XT and 7600 GT, I see they're closer in performance than I'd initially thought. The X850 XT will share a spot on the list in the $150 to $200 category, but not have a place in the $200 - $250 category.
Also, I've added the X1800 GTO as an 'hoinorable mention' in the $200 to $250 category. While not recommended over the cheaper 7600 GT and X850 XT at this price point, it is a viable card for overclockers because of it's underclocked core and 256-bit memory interface.
Hoinorable!
Sweet, no complaints, that card is decent... hopefully they will release a X1800GTO2... mmmm
Um,
That wasn't directed at you my dew,
I was talking about the release of the 'on paper yet vapor'
X1800GTO that wasn't around on March 9 when Nvidia made the 7900/7600 a market reality.
Reviewers said that if it didn't hit the market by the end of March that ATi would have some serious price slashing to do because the 7900/7600 would dominate. (7600GT dominating the lower $ segment and ATi's price needed to be a dead ringer)
Looks like they made it....'better late than never'
Oh... 8O
Great guide. I only wanted to suggest a technical correction.
| Quote : Radeon X1300 PRO
|
1 micron is 1000nm so the 90nm parts should be 0.09 micron technology. The other correction is that the RV515 core does not have an internal ring bus and just uses a regular "high performance" one. You might be thinking on the Mobility X1300 and X1400 which are based on the Mobility X1600 rather than the desktop X1300 and so have a 256-bit ring bus.
I'd go for that ATI Radeon X1900 XT. Anyone know if the X1900 XTX is worth the extra cash?
Hell Yea If You Can Afford It!!!
Actually, I'd personally get an X1900 XT over an X1900 XTX.
Ati supposedly doesn't even bin the X1900 GPUs, so they are identical processors with the X1900 XTXs simply being a measly 25mhz faster.
You can simply flash your X1900 XT with an X1900 XTX BIOS and... tahadah... it's an X1900 XTX.
Not worth the $100 premium...
Yeah, 'microns' have been used in this way incorrectly in a jargon-like sense for some time but I should probably fix the inconsistancies.
I didn't know the X1300 didn't have a ring bus but I'll look into that and fix it, thanks.
y isnt the x800gto2 in the x800gto spot?? its a x850xt in disguise!!!!!
Ok,
I hear a lot of the 7800GS sucks. (Just get the Mobo + 7800 GT for the same money)
I will if I can find a mobo with Socket 478, AND 775, AND PCI-E.
I don't want to buy a mobo I can't upgrade to Pentium D later.
Well, the GTO2 is more than $150 last time I checked, for that price you can get a real X850 XT or 7600 GT...
| Quote : Well, the GTO2 is more than $150 last time I checked, for that price you can get a real X850 XT or 7600 GT... |
NOT in Canada lol. cdn cpu parts pricing are all out of whack
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