New Case

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

Assuming you are going from an ATX to ATX case, and the power supply in the
new case is of ample size, most things should go easily. The front ports may
differ, like front usb and firewire. If you don't have them on the old and
do on the new, you'll have to find the headers on the board and know which
pinouts are which
"foster" <aano6@tiscali.co-dot-uk.no-spam.invalid> wrote in message
news:41d540f6$1_1@alt.athenanews.com...
> Hi,
>
> It's only early stages, but I am thinking about getting a new 'funky'
> case for my PC ~ I have no need to change, other than the fact that I
> am getting bored with my standard & plain beige one !
>
> If I do get one is their anything I need to be concerned about?
>
> Regarding transfering the componants from the old to the new ~ is it
> simply out & back in the same order or is their more skill &
> knowledge needed ~ for my own piece of mind I will take some photos
> first !!
>
> Would anything need to be re-configured or should it just come back
> into life.
>
> Hope you can help
>
>
>
> If any one out there is interested I have found a great site ~ cases
> starting from under £10 with free shipping !
>
> http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/pro [...] 26&_LOC=UK
>

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

> It's only early stages, but I am thinking about getting a new 'funky'
> case for my PC ~ I have no need to change, other than the fact that I
> am getting bored with my standard & plain beige one !
>
> If I do get one is their anything I need to be concerned about?

Don't get a case with a door. The last thing anybody needs to be
fiddling with is opening and closing a little door to get at their
CD player and DVD burner. Don't get one with a fan in the side,
either -- you'll have to be disconnecting the damn fan wire each
time you open it up. And don't get a case with a clear plastic
panel -- it's a dust magnet, and when it gets dirty and scuffed up
it will look like hell.

Come to think of it, you're far better off with a nice, roomy,
solid, plain beige box.

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

Al Smith wrote:
>> It's only early stages, but I am thinking about getting a new 'funky'
>> case for my PC ~ I have no need to change, other than the fact that I
>> am getting bored with my standard & plain beige one !
>>
>> If I do get one is their anything I need to be concerned about?
>
>
> Don't get a case with a door. The last thing anybody needs to be
> fiddling with is opening and closing a little door to get at their CD
> player and DVD burner. Don't get one with a fan in the side, either --
> you'll have to be disconnecting the damn fan wire each time you open it
> up. And don't get a case with a clear plastic panel -- it's a dust
> magnet, and when it gets dirty and scuffed up it will look like hell.
>
> Come to think of it, you're far better off with a nice, roomy, solid,
> plain beige box.
I have an Antec Sonata (Piano Black). Would you like two blue
"headlights" brightening the room. I think it is cool! But you have to
think about those things when buying a funky case.

I like the door to the CD because if you happen to have a beige CDROM
drive lying around you can stick it in without worrying about the
colour. I leave the door slightly ajar just in case the CD drive
suddenly pops out. I kinda like the door feature though. Makes it look
clean and sleek.

BTW, the Antec Sonata has a TruePower 380W PSU which I really like.

Ron

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

foster wrote:

> Hi,
>
> It's only early stages, but I am thinking about getting a new 'funky'
> case for my PC ~ I have no need to change, other than the fact that I
> am getting bored with my standard & plain beige one !
>
> If I do get one is their anything I need to be concerned about?

Power supplies. Most funky cases come with cheap power supplies. If you
really want funky, either mod it yourself, make sure you get a good quality
brand that'll likely have a good quality power supplies, or get the case
and power supplies separately. The last is your best option, since your
current one is sufficient enough, and you could save a few bucks by using
the old one.

> Regarding transfering the componants from the old to the new ~ is it
> simply out & back in the same order or is their more skill &
> knowledge needed ~ for my own piece of mind I will take some photos
> first !!

Put motherboard in first, wire the case, add all cards, then drives.

> Would anything need to be re-configured or should it just come back
> into life.

I'm not definite, but if you have RAID 0, you might lose everything on your
hard drives because the stripe might get broken when moving the drives
over. Again, I'm not definite about that. If so, the stripe needs recreated
and restored from backup.

Personally, money not being an object, this is the case I'd get. I really
like the blue and the yellow one.

http://www.coolermaster-europe.com [...] master.asp

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 19:57:10 -0500, Bryan Hoover
<bhoover@wecs.com> wrote:


>I got a nice Chenming case for around 50 bucks. Nice price for an extended
>atx. It has a door, but one of the fasteners (top) was broken, so though it
>stays on when closed... Kind of a pain. Anyone knows how to get a
>replacement, please let me know -- probably out of warrentee now -- should have
>followed up on it sooner.
>

A Chen Ming here has the studs on the front bezel and holes
in the door. If yours is similar, take a knife blade and
cut the remainer of the stud (if any of it is left) so that
it's flush with the surface. Next drill a hole barely
smaller than the stud was. Finally, take a bolt and thread
into the hole you drilled, while the door is reinstalled &
open. Another alternative would be to cut the head of the
bolt off, take the front bezel off, thread the headless bolt
up into the bezel and squirt some epoxy in around it.

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 02:51:10 -0500, Bryan Hoover
<bhoover@wecs.com> wrote:


>> A Chen Ming here has the studs on the front bezel and holes
>> in the door. If yours is similar, take a knife blade and
>> cut the remainer of the stud (if any of it is left) so that
>> it's flush with the surface. Next drill a hole barely
>> smaller than the stud was. Finally, take a bolt and thread
>> into the hole you drilled, while the door is reinstalled &
>> open. Another alternative would be to cut the head of the
>> bolt off, take the front bezel off, thread the headless bolt
>> up into the bezel and squirt some epoxy in around it.
>
>That's a good idea.
>
>But it's not the stud that's broken -- it's the hole in the top of the door into
>which the stud goes.
>
>It must have been broken in shipping. It was packed okay, but the box was in pretty
>bad shape -- looked like it'd been through a war zone. Eventhough it was packed
>okay, I wouldn't be surprised if it was broken by shear shock, and impact.
>
>The box reminded me -- was it Jim Carrey -- where the delivery guy was drop kicking
>the package around. There was no other damage though. And the case doesn't vibrate
>or anything despite having 2 cpu's with up to 7000rpm fans.

Might've even broken on the boat-ride into the country, or
prior to shipping. I've received cases like that, pieces
broken off but the package from the vendor was well sealed,
there would be no way the pieces could fall out yet they
weren't even in the package.... had to happen before they
packed it but they still shipped it regardless!


>
>I was thinking maybe get some plastic, and try and do a melt job on it, but I don't
>know. Seems to me I remember destroying one or two things like trying something
>like that years ago, so may not such a good idea. Maybe if I had a sodering iron...
>


So you have the entirety of the door (hole), no missing
pieces? Melting isn't usually so great for visable parts,
perhaps super-glue or PVC cement, or just a touch of
acetone. You have to be careful with the solvents though if
yours isn't painted the same color as the plastic... IIRC,
mine has very dark blue(ish-grey) plastic but painted
silver.

Then there's epoxy... Just about anything can be build with
it if you have some fiberglass matting for support, or
patience and practice. Main issue with that approach is
that it'd be much more easily seen patch-job with the door
open.

It wouldn't be too hard to attach small hinges to the sides
of the door and bezel, thinking hinges like found at a craft
or hardware store, though you might have to paint them to
match if desired.

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

kony wrote:

> On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 04:24:48 -0600, David Maynard
> <dNOTmayn@ev1.net> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>Or, want a window?
>>
>>http://www.directron.com/aspx02.html
>>
>>Shoot, for the cost of a window I just as soon slap a pinup on the side
>>
>><snip>
>
>
> WOW!
> $25 plus S/H ON SALE!

Hehe. Yeah. My thoughts exactly.

But then, I spend so much time inside these things that being able to still
see the guts after I've got the case buttoned back up holds absolutely no
appeal whatsoever for me.

> Talk about robbery.
> Newegg cleared out a bunch of their Chieftec side-panels,
> ironically enough it was exactly a year ago to this day I
> bought one for $2 plus $5 S/H, $7 total... should've bought
> a dozen of them.

I remember that deal. Don't remember what I was looking for at the time but
I remember seeing the panels for sale.

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

kony wrote:

> On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 02:51:10 -0500, Bryan Hoover
> <bhoover@wecs.com> wrote:
>
> >> A Chen Ming here has the studs on the front bezel and holes
> >> in the door. If yours is similar, take a knife blade and
> >> cut the remainer of the stud (if any of it is left) so that
> >> it's flush with the surface. Next drill a hole barely
> >> smaller than the stud was. Finally, take a bolt and thread
> >> into the hole you drilled, while the door is reinstalled &
> >> open. Another alternative would be to cut the head of the
> >> bolt off, take the front bezel off, thread the headless bolt
> >> up into the bezel and squirt some epoxy in around it.
> >
> >That's a good idea.
> >
> >But it's not the stud that's broken -- it's the hole in the top of the door into
> >which the stud goes.
> >
> >It must have been broken in shipping. It was packed okay, but the box was in pretty
> >bad shape -- looked like it'd been through a war zone. Eventhough it was packed
> >okay, I wouldn't be surprised if it was broken by shear shock, and impact.
> >
> >The box reminded me -- was it Jim Carrey -- where the delivery guy was drop kicking
> >the package around. There was no other damage though. And the case doesn't vibrate
> >or anything despite having 2 cpu's with up to 7000rpm fans.
>
> Might've even broken on the boat-ride into the country, or
> prior to shipping. I've received cases like that, pieces
> broken off but the package from the vendor was well sealed,
> there would be no way the pieces could fall out yet they
> weren't even in the package.... had to happen before they
> packed it but they still shipped it regardless!
>
> >
> >I was thinking maybe get some plastic, and try and do a melt job on it, but I don't
> >know. Seems to me I remember destroying one or two things like trying something
> >like that years ago, so may not such a good idea. Maybe if I had a sodering iron...
> >
>
> So you have the entirety of the door (hole), no missing
> pieces? Melting isn't usually so great for visable parts,

The hole is missing . That is, a piece of plastic closing the hole is broken, so there
is, effectively, no hole, or in other words, a hole that needs closing. Like C as
opposed to O.

> perhaps super-glue or PVC cement, or just a touch of
> acetone. You have to be careful with the solvents though if
> yours isn't painted the same color as the plastic... IIRC,
> mine has very dark blue(ish-grey) plastic but painted
> silver.
>
> Then there's epoxy... Just about anything can be build with
> it if you have some fiberglass matting for support, or
> patience and practice. Main issue with that approach is
> that it'd be much more easily seen patch-job with the door
> open.

Yeah, some kind of glue, preferably something that would fuse/melt the pieces of plastic
together, might do.

I don't think it'd show at all.

Bryan

> It wouldn't be too hard to attach small hinges to the sides
> of the door and bezel, thinking hinges like found at a craft
> or hardware store, though you might have to paint them to
> match if desired.

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 20:33:30 -0500, Bryan Hoover
<bhoover@wecs.com> wrote:


>> http://www.antec-inc.com/Search.bo [...] pare+Parts
>
>Close, but not sure. Perfect otherwise though. I'd go for it if I was more certain
>it would fit.

One of them should fit, Chen Ming does make Antec's cases.

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

David Maynard wrote:

> Bryan Hoover wrote:
> > David Maynard wrote:
> >
> > <snipleopholous>
> >
> >>>I got a nice Chenming case for around 50 bucks. Nice price for an extended
> >>>atx. It has a door, but one of the fasteners (top) was broken, so though it
> >>>stays on when closed... Kind of a pain. Anyone knows how to get a
> >>>replacement, please let me know -- probably out of warrentee now -- should have
> >>>followed up on it sooner.
> >>
> >>Not sure which Chenming you've got but the Antec cases used to be the same
> >>ones (Uneec makes them for Chietec, Chenming, and Antec) so see if these
> >>look similar.
> >
> >
> > Great leads.
> >
> > These pics are dark, but maybe you can tell:
> >
> > http://www.wecs.com/case1.jpg
> >
> > http://www.wecs.com/chenming2.jpg
> >
> > http://www.wecs.com/chenming3.jpg
> >
> >
> >>http://www.antec-inc.com/Search.bok?category=Spare+Parts
> >
> >
> > Close, but not sure. Perfect otherwise though. I'd go for it if I was more certain
> > it would fit.
>
> I looked more closely this time and they seem to be a different trim. I
> mean, the door middle trim section comes further to the sides than in the
> Chenming Dragon case. Whether there are any other differences I can't
> really tell.

I noticed the led lenses are in the wrong place -- down at the bottom and below the lock,
instead of above. So it's wrong in at least that regard. I can't tell otherwise, but
either way, I'd rather have the led's lined up right.


> >
> >>www.directron.com sells entire front bezels for them.
> >>
> >>http://www.directron.com/paneldragon.html (the case style mine is)
> >
> >
> > Yep. I think that's the one. Price is not too bad. Mine has four screws in each
> > corner of that middle pannel there (the panel that contains the place in the middle
> > for the branding sticker), and I don't think I see screws on this one. Otherwise, I
> > can't really see a difference.
>
> Yes. I noticed that. Mine doesn't have the screws either nor what appears
> to be, on yours, 4 'catches' inside that, I'm guessing, hold the middle
> panel in the door.
>
> But I also notice yours has the front USB port access panel on the bottom
> half and mine is the older version before they added that and perhaps the
> 'changeable' middle door trim (and the screws, which don't seem to have any
> purpose other than decoration) was another modification around the same time.
>
> Other than that, your case looks the same as mine (inside and out).
>
> Near as I can tell the directron bezel should fit perfectly fine on your
> case and you just wouldn't have 4 fake screws on the front anymore. In
> fact, all of the others should fit too (except the full tower); they're
> just a different 'look'. That's not unusual. All the various 'style series'
> from case manufacturers are the same internal frame with simply different
> bezels snapped on.
>
> At least with the entire front bezel, rather than buying just a door, you
> know the door mates up with it.

Yeah, this would definately do the trick. I'm not really worried about the screws.

Bryan

> > Bryan
> >
> >
> >>If that doesn't look like yours other models can be found here.
> >>
> >>http://www.directron.com/panel.html
> >>
> >>Side panels too, if that's of any interest.
> >>
> >>http://www.directron.com/1240sp.html
> >>http://www.directron.com/1030sp.html
> >>
> >>Or, want a window?
> >>
> >>http://www.directron.com/aspx02.html
> >>
> >>Shoot, for the cost of a window I just as soon slap a pinup on the side
> >>
> >><snip>
> >
> >

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 00:21:37 -0500, Bryan Hoover
<bhoover@wecs.com> wrote:


>
>Hey, since you've got this case too, thought I'd ask you (and anyone else)...
>
>What do you think about moding this case so as to move the harddrive cages down so they
>start where the front intake fan would otherwise go?

Doable, I added one to mine but kept the original too, so I
could put 2 drives per bay "module" and still have a lot of
room inbetween for air.


>This would make room for an intake
>fan to blow air across closer to the chipset, cpu's, memory, and VRM's. I just finding
>that I'm not getting a whole heck of a lot of benefit with the intake down there at the
>bottom of the case.

Do you have drives blocking all that area in the bay? I
wouldn't thought you'd still have some flow there otherwise.


>OTH, my VRM's get rather hot, could definately use some cooling -- if
>I open the case, I'm getting an average of 5 degrees lower temp (down from hovering
>between 56-59, and high as 61) on VRM2 (this is Tyan s2462). AMD's documentation
>recommends the bottom intake fan, but that's not what my experience is showing me.

Their recommendation is a "generic" one, as they can't
possibly test nor list every possible configuation. In your
case/components you probably would have a slight benefit
from moving the bay down. The bay locks in with a lever
latching onto the bay above it though, right? Otherwise
it's not the most secure mounting either unless the screws
are put through that "shelf" it sits on, so while you might
be able to move the shelf down and rerivet or bolt it on,
there'd still be no bay above to latch it in. Might be best
to find an alternate fixed bay instead.

When I mounted mine at the bottom I hadn't build a system in
the case yet, I used a step-drill to make 6 ~ 15 mm holes so
I could put a magnetic screwdriver through to screw in
drives from the right side.

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

Bryan Hoover wrote:

> kony wrote:
>
>
>>On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 00:21:37 -0500, Bryan Hoover
>><bhoover@wecs.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Hey, since you've got this case too, thought I'd ask you (and anyone else)...
>>>
>>>What do you think about moding this case so as to move the harddrive cages down so they
>>>start where the front intake fan would otherwise go?
>>
>>Doable, I added one to mine but kept the original too, so I
>>could put 2 drives per bay "module" and still have a lot of
>>room inbetween for air.
>>
>>
>>>This would make room for an intake
>>>fan to blow air across closer to the chipset, cpu's, memory, and VRM's. I just finding
>>>that I'm not getting a whole heck of a lot of benefit with the intake down there at the
>>>bottom of the case.
>>
>>Do you have drives blocking all that area in the bay? I
>>wouldn't thought you'd still have some flow there otherwise.
>
>
> I've got one drive, and a floppy in the top bay, and three scsi drives in the bottom. The
> scsi drives are disconnected though -- I have 6 others external, and I was a little squimish
> about running the ones inside off the PSU which is a 460W Enermax. Just being conservative,
> and they were noisier in this case than the 6 external -- don't really need all 9 right
> now. On this I'm being a little hedgy -- don't really want to give up the option to keep
> those 3 drives inside.
>
> And I should correct what said earlier a little bit -- when I wrote it, I'd just taken the
> side panel off, noticed VRM1 (not vrm2 actually) temp drop, but hadn't tried running with
> the front intake fan off. With front intake off, AGP, and DDR temps went up about 6 degrees
> which is surprising because DDR at least, is so close to VRM1 I'd have expected VRM1 to be
> effected if DDR was. But as I'd thought, this front intake fan on had no effect on VRM1
> eventhough having taken the side panel off did lower VRM1 temp. It's like VRM1 is just
> scrunched down hiding as best it can from any air flow.
>
> So, it's looking more like cutting a hole in the side panel, because I don't know if there's
> a better way to get more air moving around VRM1 otherwise.
>
> But then, AGP, and DDR would probably still be getting air with the lowered bays approach.
>
>
>>>OTH, my VRM's get rather hot, could definately use some cooling -- if
>>>I open the case, I'm getting an average of 5 degrees lower temp (down from hovering
>>>between 56-59, and high as 61) on VRM2 (this is Tyan s2462). AMD's documentation
>>>recommends the bottom intake fan, but that's not what my experience is showing me.
>>
>>Their recommendation is a "generic" one, as they can't
>>possibly test nor list every possible configuation. In your
>
>
> One cool thing though, I found after I'd bought the case, this case is actually one of those
> they used in testing, and gave results for. But yeah, I'd have to go back and look at it, I
> dare say, they didn't have all the bays full -- may have only had one bay in the case.
>
>
>>case/components you probably would have a slight benefit
>>from moving the bay down. The bay locks in with a lever
>>latching onto the bay above it though, right? Otherwise
>
>
> The bay above it sits on it's own little shelf -- this shef is rivited to the metal framing
> of the case. So top bay lever latches to stud in 5 inch bay cage above it, and bottom bay
> lever latches to top bay shelf above it.
>
> Looks like would just remove the top bay, and leave the shelf for what's now the bottom bay
> to latch to, and then rivit in (or whatever) another shelf below what's now the top bay.
> Uhg! Would mean getting another little shelf.
>
>
>>it's not the most secure mounting either unless the screws
>>are put through that "shelf" it sits on, so while you might
>>be able to move the shelf down and rerivet or bolt it on,
>>there'd still be no bay above to latch it in. Might be best
>>to find an alternate fixed bay instead.
>
>
> May be.
>
>
>>When I mounted mine at the bottom I hadn't build a system in
>>the case yet, I used a step-drill to make 6 ~ 15 mm holes so
>>I could put a magnetic screwdriver through to screw in
>>drives from the right side.
>
>
> And now that I've looked it, hate to say it because it makes moving the bays a moot point,
> my full sized scsi card wouldn't have anywhere to go with the bays moved down.
>
> Ouch! Sorry. Nevertheless, moving the bays might be doable if there was no need for any
> full sized cards. It's good to know what might be involved. As I'm looking closer at it
> now, I see everything is rivits, which means I guess, would have to drill, which may mean
> introducing rattles, etc. Thing's just not modular. Not really designed for moving the
> bays.
>
> It's looking more like I'm gonna have to cut a hole. Yee-haw! Cut a hole in the side. Pop
> in yet another fan. Barring another alternative -- maybe something involving attaching a
> fan from the top -- somehow, somewhere between the psu, and 5 inch drive bay, assuming this
> does not mess up the exhaust flow. This should be what the psu fan is for, but it's just
> not moving enough air.
>
> Bryan
>

Just to let you know I didn't ignore the message but it looks like you and
Kony have pretty much covered it.

Only comment I have at this point is drilling out rivets would necessitate
removing the guts to avoid the risk of metal shavings getting on things but
cutting a fan hole in the side panel could be done by simply removing the
panel to a safe location.

On the other hand, I'm not sure I'd worry too much about VRMs hitting 61C.
Their temp spec is a lot higher than 'ICs'.

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

kony wrote:

> On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 04:03:47 -0600, David Maynard
> <dNOTmayn@ev1.net> wrote:
>
> >Bryan Hoover wrote:
> >> It's looking more like I'm gonna have to cut a hole. Yee-haw! Cut a hole in the side. Pop
> >> in yet another fan. Barring another alternative -- maybe something involving attaching a
> >> fan from the top -- somehow, somewhere between the psu, and 5 inch drive bay, assuming this
> >> does not mess up the exhaust flow. This should be what the psu fan is for, but it's just
> >> not moving enough air.
> >>
> >> Bryan
> >>
> >
> >Just to let you know I didn't ignore the message but it looks like you and
> >Kony have pretty much covered it.
> >
> >Only comment I have at this point is drilling out rivets would necessitate
> >removing the guts to avoid the risk of metal shavings getting on things but
> >cutting a fan hole in the side panel could be done by simply removing the
> >panel to a safe location.
> >
> >On the other hand, I'm not sure I'd worry too much about VRMs hitting 61C.
> >Their temp spec is a lot higher than 'ICs'.
> >
> >
>
> Usually it's that their 'sunk to the copper, which in
> addition to the heated air in the immediate vicinity and the
> high ripple on the caps, will wear out the caps faster.
> Whether the caps will provide a good service life is subject
> to high variability, on a Tyan Server board the odds are
> good, but then again I've even compared two similar Asus
> boards and found one should do much better than the other
> long-term.

My observations appear to indicate something was overheating. Though the DDR temp reading was in
the high 30s to low 40s, before taking off the side panel, I was getting a memory error --
'referenced memory can not be accessed' or something like that -- upon closing ATIMMC.exe. VRM1
was the hottest when that was happening, but I suppose it could have been something else. AGP temp
at the time was around with the DDR temp. Only VRM1 seemed out of whack.

Not getting the error message anymore so it, at this point anyway, definately appears to have been
a heat realted problem. From what I understand, this board is known to run a hot VRM1, and have
AGP related heat intensity. In any event, there's no doubt I'll introduce more air flow. Until
then, the side panel stays off.

Bryan

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

kony wrote:
> On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 04:03:47 -0600, David Maynard
> <dNOTmayn@ev1.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Bryan Hoover wrote:
>>
>>
>>>kony wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 00:21:37 -0500, Bryan Hoover
>>>><bhoover@wecs.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Hey, since you've got this case too, thought I'd ask you (and anyone else)...
>>>>>
>>>>>What do you think about moding this case so as to move the harddrive cages down so they
>>>>>start where the front intake fan would otherwise go?
>>>>
>>>>Doable, I added one to mine but kept the original too, so I
>>>>could put 2 drives per bay "module" and still have a lot of
>>>>room inbetween for air.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>This would make room for an intake
>>>>>fan to blow air across closer to the chipset, cpu's, memory, and VRM's. I just finding
>>>>>that I'm not getting a whole heck of a lot of benefit with the intake down there at the
>>>>>bottom of the case.
>>>>
>>>>Do you have drives blocking all that area in the bay? I
>>>>wouldn't thought you'd still have some flow there otherwise.
>>>
>>>
>>>I've got one drive, and a floppy in the top bay, and three scsi drives in the bottom. The
>>>scsi drives are disconnected though -- I have 6 others external, and I was a little squimish
>>>about running the ones inside off the PSU which is a 460W Enermax. Just being conservative,
>>>and they were noisier in this case than the 6 external -- don't really need all 9 right
>>>now. On this I'm being a little hedgy -- don't really want to give up the option to keep
>>>those 3 drives inside.
>>>
>>>And I should correct what said earlier a little bit -- when I wrote it, I'd just taken the
>>>side panel off, noticed VRM1 (not vrm2 actually) temp drop, but hadn't tried running with
>>>the front intake fan off. With front intake off, AGP, and DDR temps went up about 6 degrees
>>>which is surprising because DDR at least, is so close to VRM1 I'd have expected VRM1 to be
>>>effected if DDR was. But as I'd thought, this front intake fan on had no effect on VRM1
>>>eventhough having taken the side panel off did lower VRM1 temp. It's like VRM1 is just
>>>scrunched down hiding as best it can from any air flow.
>>>
>>>So, it's looking more like cutting a hole in the side panel, because I don't know if there's
>>>a better way to get more air moving around VRM1 otherwise.
>>>
>>>But then, AGP, and DDR would probably still be getting air with the lowered bays approach.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>OTH, my VRM's get rather hot, could definately use some cooling -- if
>>>>>I open the case, I'm getting an average of 5 degrees lower temp (down from hovering
>>>>>between 56-59, and high as 61) on VRM2 (this is Tyan s2462). AMD's documentation
>>>>>recommends the bottom intake fan, but that's not what my experience is showing me.
>>>>
>>>>Their recommendation is a "generic" one, as they can't
>>>>possibly test nor list every possible configuation. In your
>>>
>>>
>>>One cool thing though, I found after I'd bought the case, this case is actually one of those
>>>they used in testing, and gave results for. But yeah, I'd have to go back and look at it, I
>>>dare say, they didn't have all the bays full -- may have only had one bay in the case.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>case/components you probably would have a slight benefit
>>>
>>>>from moving the bay down. The bay locks in with a lever
>>>
>>>>latching onto the bay above it though, right? Otherwise
>>>
>>>
>>>The bay above it sits on it's own little shelf -- this shef is rivited to the metal framing
>>>of the case. So top bay lever latches to stud in 5 inch bay cage above it, and bottom bay
>>>lever latches to top bay shelf above it.
>>>
>>>Looks like would just remove the top bay, and leave the shelf for what's now the bottom bay
>>>to latch to, and then rivit in (or whatever) another shelf below what's now the top bay.
>>>Uhg! Would mean getting another little shelf.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>it's not the most secure mounting either unless the screws
>>>>are put through that "shelf" it sits on, so while you might
>>>>be able to move the shelf down and rerivet or bolt it on,
>>>>there'd still be no bay above to latch it in. Might be best
>>>>to find an alternate fixed bay instead.
>>>
>>>
>>>May be.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>When I mounted mine at the bottom I hadn't build a system in
>>>>the case yet, I used a step-drill to make 6 ~ 15 mm holes so
>>>>I could put a magnetic screwdriver through to screw in
>>>>drives from the right side.
>>>
>>>
>>>And now that I've looked it, hate to say it because it makes moving the bays a moot point,
>>>my full sized scsi card wouldn't have anywhere to go with the bays moved down.
>>>
>>>Ouch! Sorry. Nevertheless, moving the bays might be doable if there was no need for any
>>>full sized cards. It's good to know what might be involved. As I'm looking closer at it
>>>now, I see everything is rivits, which means I guess, would have to drill, which may mean
>>>introducing rattles, etc. Thing's just not modular. Not really designed for moving the
>>>bays.
>>>
>>>It's looking more like I'm gonna have to cut a hole. Yee-haw! Cut a hole in the side. Pop
>>>in yet another fan. Barring another alternative -- maybe something involving attaching a
>>>fan from the top -- somehow, somewhere between the psu, and 5 inch drive bay, assuming this
>>>does not mess up the exhaust flow. This should be what the psu fan is for, but it's just
>>>not moving enough air.
>>>
>>>Bryan
>>>
>>
>>Just to let you know I didn't ignore the message but it looks like you and
>>Kony have pretty much covered it.
>>
>>Only comment I have at this point is drilling out rivets would necessitate
>>removing the guts to avoid the risk of metal shavings getting on things but
>>cutting a fan hole in the side panel could be done by simply removing the
>>panel to a safe location.
>>
>>On the other hand, I'm not sure I'd worry too much about VRMs hitting 61C.
>>Their temp spec is a lot higher than 'ICs'.
>>
>>
>
> Usually it's that their 'sunk to the copper, which in
> addition to the heated air in the immediate vicinity and the
> high ripple on the caps, will wear out the caps faster.

True in basic theory but the caps should be good to 105C and a 5C drop off
of 61C just doesn't seem enough in the overall picture to be of major concern.

But if he's worried about cap temps he really needs to get a temperature
probe and see what's really going on because it's hard to determine just
exactly what on-board temp monitors are really monitoring.

> Whether the caps will provide a good service life is subject
> to high variability, on a Tyan Server board the odds are
> good, but then again I've even compared two similar Asus
> boards and found one should do much better than the other
> long-term.

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

kony wrote:

> On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 21:34:05 -0600, David Maynard
> <dNOTmayn@ev1.net> wrote:
>
> >>>On the other hand, I'm not sure I'd worry too much about VRMs hitting 61C.
> >>>Their temp spec is a lot higher than 'ICs'.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> Usually it's that their 'sunk to the copper, which in
> >> addition to the heated air in the immediate vicinity and the
> >> high ripple on the caps, will wear out the caps faster.
> >
> >True in basic theory but the caps should be good to 105C and a 5C drop off
> >of 61C just doesn't seem enough in the overall picture to be of major concern.
>
> 61C is MUCH too hot, _IF_ the caps are that temp.
> It is irrelevant if the caps are rated to 105C, because they
> do not provide adequate service life at that temp. It would
> depend on the particular caps of course, but @ 105C and
> other "median" environment/circuit they'd be expected to
> have roughly 2K hr. life, less than 3 months. Then of
> course it depends on how over-spec they were, to what extent
> a degradation in function will effect the circuit.
>
> Of course, they aren't running at 105C, but my personal
> experiences have been that if a cap feels too hot to leave
> your fingers on comfortably, a dozen seconds or so roughly,
> they may be problematic within 2-3 years, potentially
> causing intermittent crashing (depending on particular
> function, circuit) if not yet venting. The problem is seen
> more often on systems running extended periods of time at
> high CPU utilization, for example video encoding or gaming,
> SETI, etc, especially if overclocking.
>
> >
> >But if he's worried about cap temps he really needs to get a temperature
> >probe and see what's really going on because it's hard to determine just
> >exactly what on-board temp monitors are really monitoring.
> >
>
> Agreed

Well guys, the caps are not that hot (whew!), so does not look like, at this point
anyway, any of that bad capaciter problem I've been hearing about. They all look
good too -- nice and clean, no bulging. Computer's been up a little over 3 months
now.

The toroidal inductors (big word for a non-electrician ) -- the copper coil is
hot though on the ones that appear to be a part of VRM1. Not too hot to touch, but
not real comfortable to hold more than 5 seconds or so.

Bryan

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 22:41:53 -0600, David Maynard
<dNOTmayn@ev1.net> wrote:


>> 61C is MUCH too hot, _IF_ the caps are that temp.
>> It is irrelevant if the caps are rated to 105C, because they
>> do not provide adequate service life at that temp. It would
>> depend on the particular caps of course, but @ 105C and
>> other "median" environment/circuit they'd be expected to
>> have roughly 2K hr. life, less than 3 months.
>
>True, but then we don't know that the caps are at the 'monitor' temp and
>it's unlikely someone stuck a thermistor on top of them

Yes, this is an important distinction.

>
>At his top end of 61C a 105C (2000 hour) cap life expectancy comes to
>around 4 years and at his lower number of 56C it's more like 7, *if* that's
>cap temp.

While some specs do appear to suggest this, in real-world
use I've found it to not be the case. It seems more
accurate to me to be cautious about any cap above about 50C,
that it may not last 3 years at that temp. Perhaps the
difference is the frequency, that it's not 100Hz, nor the
ripple a more moderate value as these seen failing are
typically in CPU VRM circuits.


>
>
>> Then of
>> course it depends on how over-spec they were, to what extent
>> a degradation in function will effect the circuit.
>
>Quite right.
>
>Interesting graph here of elna 105C aluminum electrolytics.
>
>http://www.elna.co.jp/en/ct/c_g10.htm
>
>A roughly 4% capacitance degradation to 2,000 hours, another percent or so
>to 4,000, but almost flat from there on out to 10,000.
>
>(source page is here http://www.elna.co.jp/en/ct/c_al03.htm)


One problem I have with those is that relatively speaking,
they're unsuitable for the circuits stressing a cap.
They're outperformed by even Rubycon's old ZL series, which
has been abandoned as inferior to most newer generations
from any name-brand manufacturer (including Rubycon's own
MBZ/MCZ/etc) even if only considering standard low-ESR
electrolytics.

>
>>
>> Of course, they aren't running at 105C, but my personal
>> experiences have been that if a cap feels too hot to leave
>> your fingers on comfortably, a dozen seconds or so roughly,
>> they may be problematic within 2-3 years, potentially
>> causing intermittent crashing (depending on particular
>> function, circuit) if not yet venting. The problem is seen
>> more often on systems running extended periods of time at
>> high CPU utilization, for example video encoding or gaming,
>> SETI, etc, especially if overclocking.
>
>Well, we've gone from a VRM 'monitor' reading to presuming that's cap temp.

Yep ;-)

Every now and then I'll see a dead FET but most often the
caps go first, if not alone.

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

Bryan Hoover wrote:

> Bryan Hoover wrote:
>
> > kony wrote:
> >
> > > On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 21:34:05 -0600, David Maynard
> > > <dNOTmayn@ev1.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > >>>On the other hand, I'm not sure I'd worry too much about VRMs hitting 61C.
> > > >>>Their temp spec is a lot higher than 'ICs'.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >> Usually it's that their 'sunk to the copper, which in
> > > >> addition to the heated air in the immediate vicinity and the
> > > >> high ripple on the caps, will wear out the caps faster.
> > > >
> > > >True in basic theory but the caps should be good to 105C and a 5C drop off
> > > >of 61C just doesn't seem enough in the overall picture to be of major concern.
> > >
> > > 61C is MUCH too hot, _IF_ the caps are that temp.
> > > It is irrelevant if the caps are rated to 105C, because they
> > > do not provide adequate service life at that temp. It would
> > > depend on the particular caps of course, but @ 105C and
> > > other "median" environment/circuit they'd be expected to
> > > have roughly 2K hr. life, less than 3 months. Then of
> > > course it depends on how over-spec they were, to what extent
> > > a degradation in function will effect the circuit.
> > >
> > > Of course, they aren't running at 105C, but my personal
> > > experiences have been that if a cap feels too hot to leave
> > > your fingers on comfortably, a dozen seconds or so roughly,
> > > they may be problematic within 2-3 years, potentially
> > > causing intermittent crashing (depending on particular
> > > function, circuit) if not yet venting. The problem is seen
> > > more often on systems running extended periods of time at
> > > high CPU utilization, for example video encoding or gaming,
> > > SETI, etc, especially if overclocking.
> > >
> > > >
> > > >But if he's worried about cap temps he really needs to get a temperature
> > > >probe and see what's really going on because it's hard to determine just
> > > >exactly what on-board temp monitors are really monitoring.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Agreed
> >
> > Well guys, the caps are not that hot (whew!), so does not look like, at this point
> > anyway, any of that bad capaciter problem I've been hearing about. They all look
> > good too -- nice and clean, no bulging. Computer's been up a little over 3 months
> > now.
> >
> > The toroidal inductors (big word for a non-electrician ) -- the copper coil is
> > hot though on the ones that appear to be a part of VRM1. Not too hot to touch, but
> > not real comfortable to hold more than 5 seconds or so.
>
> So, would you all say that's normal -- the "relatively hot" inductor?

Mmm. Where'd you guys go?

Some more googling:

http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/s [...] hp?t=10529

leads to think maybe the memory reference errors on closing the ATI app were caused by
transients, in combination with relatively higher temp.

That's my non-engineering degree guess anyway -- unfortunately, can't afford to go back
to school at this point .

In any event, lower temps do seem to have elliminated the problem. The poor thing's
gasping for air.

Bryan

> Bryan
>
> > Bryan

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

kony wrote:

> On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 22:41:53 -0600, David Maynard
> <dNOTmayn@ev1.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>>>61C is MUCH too hot, _IF_ the caps are that temp.
>>>It is irrelevant if the caps are rated to 105C, because they
>>>do not provide adequate service life at that temp. It would
>>>depend on the particular caps of course, but @ 105C and
>>>other "median" environment/circuit they'd be expected to
>>>have roughly 2K hr. life, less than 3 months.
>>
>>True, but then we don't know that the caps are at the 'monitor' temp and
>>it's unlikely someone stuck a thermistor on top of them
>
>
> Yes, this is an important distinction.
>
>
>>At his top end of 61C a 105C (2000 hour) cap life expectancy comes to
>>around 4 years and at his lower number of 56C it's more like 7, *if* that's
>>cap temp.
>
>
> While some specs do appear to suggest this, in real-world
> use I've found it to not be the case. It seems more
> accurate to me to be cautious about any cap above about 50C,
> that it may not last 3 years at that temp. Perhaps the
> difference is the frequency, that it's not 100Hz, nor the
> ripple a more moderate value as these seen failing are
> typically in CPU VRM circuits.

Well, could be but, in theory, the frequency and ripple current are simply
what's causing the temperature rise. But I'm not a cap designer.

I'm more inclined to suspect marginal VRM design and/or component quality.


>>> Then of
>>>course it depends on how over-spec they were, to what extent
>>>a degradation in function will effect the circuit.
>>
>>Quite right.
>>
>>Interesting graph here of elna 105C aluminum electrolytics.
>>
>>http://www.elna.co.jp/en/ct/c_g10.htm
>>
>>A roughly 4% capacitance degradation to 2,000 hours, another percent or so
>>to 4,000, but almost flat from there on out to 10,000.
>>
>>(source page is here http://www.elna.co.jp/en/ct/c_al03.htm)
>
> One problem I have with those is that relatively speaking,
> they're unsuitable for the circuits stressing a cap.
> They're outperformed by even Rubycon's old ZL series, which
> has been abandoned as inferior to most newer generations
> from any name-brand manufacturer (including Rubycon's own
> MBZ/MCZ/etc) even if only considering standard low-ESR
> electrolytics.

Oh, I wasn't 'recommending' them. It's just illustrative that 'life span'
doesn't mean they suddenly go belly up 59 minutes 59 seconds into hour 2000.


>>>Of course, they aren't running at 105C, but my personal
>>>experiences have been that if a cap feels too hot to leave
>>>your fingers on comfortably, a dozen seconds or so roughly,
>>>they may be problematic within 2-3 years, potentially
>>>causing intermittent crashing (depending on particular
>>>function, circuit) if not yet venting. The problem is seen
>>>more often on systems running extended periods of time at
>>>high CPU utilization, for example video encoding or gaming,
>>>SETI, etc, especially if overclocking.
>>
>>Well, we've gone from a VRM 'monitor' reading to presuming that's cap temp.
>
>
> Yep ;-)
>
> Every now and then I'll see a dead FET but most often the
> caps go first, if not alone.

Definitely. The caps usually go first, unless it's a VRM I've driven well
past it's intended design.

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 01:01:35 -0500, Bryan Hoover
<bhoover@wecs.com> wrote:


>> The toroidal inductors (big word for a non-electrician ) -- the copper coil is
>> hot though on the ones that appear to be a part of VRM1. Not too hot to touch, but
>> not real comfortable to hold more than 5 seconds or so.
>
>So, would you all say that's normal -- the "relatively hot" inductor?

Some are hotter than others, it's not "abnormal" for it to
be hot, rather a function of the particular part and load.
Most Athlon or P4-not-mostly-HALT-Idling are relatively
warm->hot.

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

Bryan Hoover wrote:

> David Maynard wrote:
>
>
>>What's your case temp to begin with?
>
>
> 40C, often 38C, as low as 34C.

If that's in a 25C ambient, and really case temp instead of a thermistor on
the board being heated by adjacent components, then it's a bit warm at 40.
Warm like an off the rack Best Buy 'special of the week'. Not 'out of
spec', per see, but since you're worried about temps...

A 6C case rise should not be too difficult with reasonable ventilation.


>>Frankly, I'm suspicious of this 'temperature' solution and tend to think
>>that if a few degrees C make the difference between 'working' and memory
>>errors that you've got a memory, driver, or PSU problem.
>
>
> System 12V is 14.054 in Tyan's system monitor program.

If it's really 14 volts then you have a PSU problem. If it's not then you
have a monitoring problem. One way or the other it ain't right.

> Bios shows it at a steady 12.34
> though, but this is a boot, before Windows, and displaying graphics. All the other voltages
> in the bios, and system monitor program are well within spec. Don't have a multimeter (yet).

Time to get one.

> No reason to suspect bad memory,

Except you have a system problem that can be caused by it. I'd say that's
at least a 'potential' reason

> but of course, it hasn't shown up on TV in a perp walk or
> anything either.
>
> The ATI driver, I've heard tales about, but sensitive to heat?

Hey, with ATI software you never can tell. Anything can happen.

Of course, it could be the *card* is getting too warm.

But the obvious thing is the 14 volt 12 volt rail. Red flag, Red flag.

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

Bryan Hoover wrote:

> David Maynard wrote:
>
> > Bryan Hoover wrote:
> >
> > > David Maynard wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >>What's your case temp to begin with?
> > >
> > >
> > > 40C, often 38C, as low as 34C.
> >
> > If that's in a 25C ambient, and really case temp instead of a thermistor on
> > the board being heated by adjacent components, then it's a bit warm at 40.
>
> It's what SiSoft reports as case temp. AT this point, I think a big USELESS is warrented on the
> software monitoring stuff. That is, unless you have better measurements to calibrate by first. So
> I don't know -- and I don't have thermometer in the house, but based on the furnace thermostate,
> I'd say it's around 70 in here.

Well, not USELESS, and SpeedFan is great. Just need to know more precisly exactly what the sensors are
sensing .

Bryan

> > Warm like an off the rack Best Buy 'special of the week'. Not 'out of
>
> Bite your tongue.
>
> > spec', per see, but since you're worried about temps...
> >
> > A 6C case rise should not be too difficult with reasonable ventilation.
> >
> > >>Frankly, I'm suspicious of this 'temperature' solution and tend to think
> > >>that if a few degrees C make the difference between 'working' and memory
> > >>errors that you've got a memory, driver, or PSU problem.
> > >
> > >
> > > System 12V is 14.054 in Tyan's system monitor program.
> >
> > If it's really 14 volts then you have a PSU problem. If it's not then you
> > have a monitoring problem. One way or the other it ain't right.
>
> I'm sure hoping that 14 volts is WRONG! And that the bios temperature is right. Obviously, of
> course.
>
> > > Bios shows it at a steady 12.34
> > > though, but this is a boot, before Windows, and displaying graphics. All the other voltages
> > > in the bios, and system monitor program are well within spec. Don't have a multimeter (yet).
> >
> > Time to get one.
>
> Yep. Recommendation(s)??
>
> > > No reason to suspect bad memory,
> >
> > Except you have a system problem that can be caused by it. I'd say that's
> > at least a 'potential' reason
>
> Touché. But it looked so nice in the package .
>
> > > but of course, it hasn't shown up on TV in a perp walk or
> > > anything either.
> > >
> > > The ATI driver, I've heard tales about, but sensitive to heat?
> >
> > Hey, with ATI software you never can tell. Anything can happen.
> >
> > Of course, it could be the *card* is getting too warm.
>
> AGP temp 41, though don't know what that sensor is measuring. Card feels okay -- just luke warm.
> It's getting good ventillation -- sits below the bottom exauhst fan, resonably in front of intake
> fan, and probably getting air off of cpu fan.
>
> > But the obvious thing is the 14 volt 12 volt rail. Red flag, Red flag.
>
> Multimeter, yes. Recommendations?
>
> Bryan

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

Bryan Hoover wrote:
> David Maynard wrote:
>
>
>>Bryan Hoover wrote:
>>
>>
>>>David Maynard wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>What's your case temp to begin with?
>>>
>>>
>>>40C, often 38C, as low as 34C.
>>
>>If that's in a 25C ambient, and really case temp instead of a thermistor on
>>the board being heated by adjacent components, then it's a bit warm at 40.
>
>
> It's what SiSoft reports as case temp.

Well, sisoft is reporting whatever the hardware is reporting. It's
basically just a 'display' tool.

> AT this point, I think a big USELESS is warrented on the
> software monitoring stuff. That is, unless you have better measurements to calibrate by first.

Not entirely true but pretty close. If everything is 'ok' then it's a mild
assurance that everything is 'ok'. The problem comes when there's a problem
because you don't have any assurance, or means to determine, what thing is
'right', if indeed anything is, vs what might be wrong, and that includes
the monitoring software which might be guessing the wrong sensor, using an
improper scale factor, assuming a measurement exists that doesn't, etc.

For example, I've got some motherboards where MBM confidently reports
voltages that there's no hardware monitoring for. Needless to say there's
little reason to panic if MBM thinks v-bat is -129v because one can resolve
that on the grounds of 'intuitively apparent non reality' but, while one
will normally conclude warm fuzzy 'success' on getting things configured
correctly when 12v comes out reading something close to 12v, is 14v on the
12v rail a 'real' reading?

None of which solves your problem but it explains how we got here


> So
> I don't know -- and I don't have thermometer in the house, but based on the furnace thermostate,
> I'd say it's around 70 in here.

Give or take 5F and that's still close enough to say your case ventilation
seems to be lacking, or the 'case temp' isn't really case temp (which is
quite likely as the sensor is, most likely, mounted on the motherboard).


>>Warm like an off the rack Best Buy 'special of the week'. Not 'out of
>
>
> Bite your tongue.

Hehe. Why? It successfully got the point across


>>spec', per see, but since you're worried about temps...
>>
>>A 6C case rise should not be too difficult with reasonable ventilation.
>>
>>
>>>>Frankly, I'm suspicious of this 'temperature' solution and tend to think
>>>>that if a few degrees C make the difference between 'working' and memory
>>>>errors that you've got a memory, driver, or PSU problem.
>>>
>>>
>>>System 12V is 14.054 in Tyan's system monitor program.
>>
>>If it's really 14 volts then you have a PSU problem. If it's not then you
>>have a monitoring problem. One way or the other it ain't right.
>
>
> I'm sure hoping that 14 volts is WRONG! And that the bios temperature is right. Obviously, of
> course.
>
>
>>> Bios shows it at a steady 12.34
>>>though, but this is a boot, before Windows, and displaying graphics. All the other voltages
>>>in the bios, and system monitor program are well within spec. Don't have a multimeter (yet).
>>
>>Time to get one.
>
>
> Yep. Recommendation(s)??

For broad brush generic measurement purposes it doesn't really matter much
as almost anything will be within a percent or two, usually under 1%, and
while that wouldn't be good enough for the QA department it'll certainly
resolve 14 vs 12

And, while I'm at it, the % number bears a comment as people became
confidently confused with the advent of the 'digital world'. By that I
mean, people tend to 'believe' numbers whereas, before, it was intuitive
that an analog reading was 'roughly that' because you have to 'estimate' it
the last bit with your eyes anyway. E.g. ask a person with a dial watch
what time it is and they'll say something like "oh, about half past two" or
"almost 2:30" but ask someone with a digital and you're likely to get "it's
2:28:42" even if the watch is 3 minutes slow. (similar problem with
'digital' motherboard temperature and voltage measurements)

An amusing story, of some value, to further illustrate. The conventional
understanding of 'normal' body temperature being 98.6F came from
translating a German experiment using Centigrade. It was, first of all, an
average but when it got translated that fact was ignored along with the
significant digits (stating 37 implies 37 -+ .5C) so '37C' became the
'direct conversion' of 98.6F, which is more digits and implied 'accuracy'
than the original 37C. I.E. The corresponding 'normal body temp' F range is
really more like 97.7 to 99.5, not simply '98.6'. In other words, it went
from an implied accuracy of 1C (-+ .5) to an implied accuracy of .1F, an 18
fold 'improvement', simply because people accept numbers, and digits, when
they see them.

The point is, if you're using a digital multimeter with 1% accuracy don't
panic if a reading suggests '1% off' because you can't tell better than 1%,
which means it can be exactly right yet read 1% off. And just because 'a
lot of digits' are displayed (or printed in the translated text) doesn't
mean they are 'significant'

Way to much talking but I was having fun

I'm sure someone will puke at this one but I got this el-cheapo for my
travel kit.

http://www.softwareandstuff.com/dm_m810bm.html

Good enough for general measurement and cheap enough that I won't cry if it
gets left or lost somewhere. (And with the added bonus it fits inside an
ancient T.I. calculator belt clip carrying case I had lying around from
back in the days when they still made the outside from cow and padded the
inside.)

Mine came with a 'surprise', unlisted, bonus temperature probe. I don't
know how well it works as I have a more convenient temperature
probe/monitor made from a Radio Shack dual readout indoor/outdoor
thermometer. I mean, it works well enough for room temp but it's a 3 inch
long metal rod probe and I haven't tested it to see how fast, or
accurately, it responds to point tipping on an I.C. or heatsink.

If the thing still comes with a temp probe that would probably be good
enough for room temp/case temp measurement, at least, and a pretty good
deal for 5 bucks plus around 6, or so, for shipping even without it.

You can also get el-cheapo 'pocket' (fold flap) multimeters for 20 bucks,
or so, but as rough an environment as mine sometimes end up in I don't like
attached probes.

'Semi-professional' digital multimeters start in the 50 buck range with an
entry level Fluke being $140, or so, unless you can find an older one for a
song and a dance in a garage sale.


>>>No reason to suspect bad memory,
>>
>>Except you have a system problem that can be caused by it. I'd say that's
>>at least a 'potential' reason
>
>
> Touché. But it looked so nice in the package .



Have you tried lowering your BIOS RAM settings?


>>>but of course, it hasn't shown up on TV in a perp walk or
>>>anything either.
>>>
>>>The ATI driver, I've heard tales about, but sensitive to heat?
>>
>>Hey, with ATI software you never can tell. Anything can happen.
>>
>>Of course, it could be the *card* is getting too warm.
>
>
> AGP temp 41, though don't know what that sensor is measuring. Card feels okay -- just luke warm.
> It's getting good ventillation -- sits below the bottom exauhst fan, resonably in front of intake
> fan, and probably getting air off of cpu fan.

Sounds like it's temp is ok.

>>But the obvious thing is the 14 volt 12 volt rail. Red flag, Red flag.
>
>
> Multimeter, yes. Recommendations?

See over done text, above.

>
> Bryan
>

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

Bryan Hoover wrote:
> David Maynard wrote:
>
>
>>Bryan Hoover wrote:
>>
>>>David Maynard wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Bryan Hoover wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>David Maynard wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>What's your case temp to begin with?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>40C, often 38C, as low as 34C.
>>>>
>>>>If that's in a 25C ambient, and really case temp instead of a thermistor on
>>>>the board being heated by adjacent components, then it's a bit warm at 40.
>
>
> I don't trust it. SpeedFan is showing one of the LM75's as 34C, while cpu temps are around 50. This
> is with the case off. VRM1 (close to cpu1, and memory, and always, as is cpu1, hotest) is pretty
> steady at 54, and VRM2 is steady at 51.>

"ONE of the LM75s"? What does that mean?


>>>It's what SiSoft reports as case temp.
>>
>>Well, sisoft is reporting whatever the hardware is reporting. It's
>>basically just a 'display' tool.
>>
>>
>>> AT this point, I think a big USELESS is warrented on the
>>>software monitoring stuff. That is, unless you have better measurements to calibrate by first.
>>
>>Not entirely true but pretty close. If everything is 'ok' then it's a mild
>>assurance that everything is 'ok'. The problem comes when there's a problem
>>because you don't have any assurance, or means to determine, what thing is
>>'right', if indeed anything is, vs what might be wrong, and that includes
>>the monitoring software which might be guessing the wrong sensor, using an
>>improper scale factor, assuming a measurement exists that doesn't, etc.
>>
>>For example, I've got some motherboards where MBM confidently reports
>>voltages that there's no hardware monitoring for. Needless to say there's
>>little reason to panic if MBM thinks v-bat is -129v because one can resolve
>>that on the grounds of 'intuitively apparent non reality' but, while one
>>will normally conclude warm fuzzy 'success' on getting things configured
>>correctly when 12v comes out reading something close to 12v, is 14v on the
>>12v rail a 'real' reading?
>
>
> Meanwhile, SpeedFan shows this rail at 11.31V at the moment. SpeedFan voltage readings for this rail
> are always low, and Tyan System Monitor always high. Core in both is steady 1.74V (Socket A (MP's)).
>
>
>>I'd say it's around 70 in here.
>
>
>>Give or take 5F and that's still close enough to say your case ventilation
>>seems to be lacking, or the 'case temp' isn't really case temp (which is
>>quite likely as the sensor is, most likely, mounted on the motherboard).
>>
>>
>>>>spec', per see, but since you're worried about temps...
>>>>
>>>>A 6C case rise should not be too difficult with reasonable ventilation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>Frankly, I'm suspicious of this 'temperature' solution and tend to think
>>>>>>that if a few degrees C make the difference between 'working' and memory
>>>>>>errors that you've got a memory, driver, or PSU problem.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>System 12V is 14.054 in Tyan's system monitor program.
>>>>
>>>>If it's really 14 volts then you have a PSU problem. If it's not then you
>>>>have a monitoring problem. One way or the other it ain't right.
>>>
>>>
>>>I'm sure hoping that 14 volts is WRONG! And that the bios temperature is right. Obviously, of
>>>course.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Bios shows it at a steady 12.34
>>>>>though, but this is a boot, before Windows, and displaying graphics. All the other voltages
>>>>>in the bios, and system monitor program are well within spec. Don't have a multimeter (yet).
>>>>
>>>>Time to get one.
>>>
>>>
>>>Yep. Recommendation(s)??
>>
>>For broad brush generic measurement purposes it doesn't really matter much
>>as almost anything will be within a percent or two, usually under 1%, and
>>while that wouldn't be good enough for the QA department it'll certainly
>>resolve 14 vs 12
>>
>>And, while I'm at it, the % number bears a comment as people became
>>confidently confused with the advent of the 'digital world'. By that I
>>mean, people tend to 'believe' numbers whereas, before, it was intuitive
>>that an analog reading was 'roughly that' because you have to 'estimate' it
>>the last bit with your eyes anyway. E.g. ask a person with a dial watch
>>what time it is and they'll say something like "oh, about half past two" or
>>"almost 2:30" but ask someone with a digital and you're likely to get "it's
>>2:28:42" even if the watch is 3 minutes slow. (similar problem with
>>'digital' motherboard temperature and voltage measurements)
>>
>>An amusing story, of some value, to further illustrate. The conventional
>>understanding of 'normal' body temperature being 98.6F came from
>>translating a German experiment using Centigrade. It was, first of all, an
>>average but when it got translated that fact was ignored along with the
>>significant digits (stating 37 implies 37 -+ .5C) so '37C' became the
>>'direct conversion' of 98.6F, which is more digits and implied 'accuracy'
>>than the original 37C. I.E. The corresponding 'normal body temp' F range is
>>really more like 97.7 to 99.5, not simply '98.6'. In other words, it went
>>from an implied accuracy of 1C (-+ .5) to an implied accuracy of .1F, an 18
>>fold 'improvement', simply because people accept numbers, and digits, when
>>they see them.
>>
>>The point is, if you're using a digital multimeter with 1% accuracy don't
>>panic if a reading suggests '1% off' because you can't tell better than 1%,
>>which means it can be exactly right yet read 1% off. And just because 'a
>>lot of digits' are displayed (or printed in the translated text) doesn't
>>mean they are 'significant'
>>
>>Way too much talking but I was having fun
>
>
> Difference between a digital meter, and a "needle meter", is that an inaccurate digital meter will
> report its inaccurate readings more accurately .

Hehe. From a George Carlan perspective, yeah.


>>I'm sure someone will puke at this one but I got this el-cheapo for my
>>travel kit.
>>
>>http://www.softwareandstuff.com/dm_m810bm.html
>>
>>Good enough for general measurement and cheap enough that I won't cry if it
>>gets left or lost somewhere. (And with the added bonus it fits inside an
>>ancient T.I. calculator belt clip carrying case I had lying around from
>>back in the days when they still made the outside from cow and padded the
>>inside.)
>>
>>Mine came with a 'surprise', unlisted, bonus temperature probe. I don't
>>know how well it works as I have a more convenient temperature
>>probe/monitor made from a Radio Shack dual readout indoor/outdoor
>>thermometer. I mean, it works well enough for room temp but it's a 3 inch
>>long metal rod probe and I haven't tested it to see how fast, or
>>accurately, it responds to point tipping on an I.C. or heatsink.
>>
>>If the thing still comes with a temp probe that would probably be good
>>enough for room temp/case temp measurement, at least, and a pretty good
>>deal for 5 bucks plus around 6, or so, for shipping even without it.
>
>
> Looks good. I think I will get it. I hope it comes with the temperature probe too. It didn't show
> the hot, and ground connector things, but I assume they come with it , and look and function no less
> well then the more expensive ones I seen in my recent foray into this subject.

Yes, mine came with probes.


>>You can also get el-cheapo 'pocket' (fold flap) multimeters for 20 bucks,
>>or so, but as rough an environment as mine sometimes end up in I don't like
>>attached probes.
>>
>>'Semi-professional' digital multimeters start in the 50 buck range with an
>>entry level Fluke being $140, or so, unless you can find an older one for a
>>song and a dance in a garage sale.
>>
>>
>>>>>No reason to suspect bad memory,
>>>>
>>>>Except you have a system problem that can be caused by it. I'd say that's
>>>>at least a 'potential' reason
>>>
>>>
>>>Touché. But it looked so nice in the package .
>>
>>
>>
>>Have you tried lowering your BIOS RAM settings?
>
>
> No. Something else to look at. In fact, I'm not even sure that's a bios option (can't reboot at the
> moment). I don't think there are such options, and I don't see it in the .pdf documentation for this
> board. I don't know how much that has to do with over or under clocking, but this is definately not an
> overclocker's board.
>
> BTW, looking around on the subject of case mods, and cooling, I did come across several sites with side
> panel window replacements that have holes pre-cut. And also, a Chenming case that was nicely pre-cut
> for 2 80mm fans in the door -- door would probably fit my case, but I have not found just door for sale
> anywhere.
>
> http://www.frozencpu.com/c3p-28.html
>
> http://www.frozencpu.com/scan/se=W [...] earch.html
>
> This is the ChenMing with the pre-cut side panel:
>
> http://www.techfreaks.org/reviews/chenming301.shtml
>
> and this is one of the linked closeups of it:
>
> http://www.techfreaks.org/images/r [...] e/side.JPG
>
> Be nice to have the whole door -- a replacement door, with the pre-cut hole(s).
>
> Eventually, having saved up for it, I hope to get:
>
> http://www.crazypc.com/Merchant2/m [...] _Code=8177
>
> Bryan

Whatever happened to the idea of simply cutting your own hole?

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

kony wrote:

> On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 04:30:40 -0500, Bryan Hoover
> <bhoover@wecs.com> wrote:
>
> >> Whatever happened to the idea of simply cutting your own hole?
> >
> >I was entertaining the idea before I came across the pre-cut ones. I don't have the tools, though I have a
> >good friend who's a bit of a craftsman. But I might just as soon buy a ready made solution. The entire door
> >would be perfect -- 'cause I don't have a rivit gun either.
> >
> >Still, do it yourself, remains an option -- cheaper, just need the need the fan, I think, and I guess some
> >rubber or something. Well, there are kits.
>
> If I were to cut a hole on one of those, I'd put in a
> 120x38mm Panaflo (FBA12G12L1A)
> undervolted, or the current cheaper option, FBA12G12M
> ["M"=Med instead of "L"ow speed, just undervolt more/less]

Yeah, I'd rather bigger, quieter fan too.

> http://www.bgmicro.com/prodinfo.asp?prodid=FAN1080

That's a sweet deal!

> Installed about 2/3 of the way down towards the back such
> that it blows under video and also above towards upper mobo

I don't know -- I want that VRM to be "suffocating" with air flow, and it's a little higher up. I think the
video's getting enough air from the intake, exhaust, and cpu as it is. Certainly it's the hotest of any card
that'll ever be plugged into the board (don't you think?), and it is not, by any means, too hot to touch as it
is. Higher placement would get the chipset too.

Bryan

> & CPU, then slap a woven mesh grill on it like this,
> http://www.xoxide.com/12alfanfil.html

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 21:00:26 -0500, Bryan Hoover
<bhoover@wecs.com> wrote:


>> If I were to cut a hole on one of those, I'd put in a
>> 120x38mm Panaflo (FBA12G12L1A)
>> undervolted, or the current cheaper option, FBA12G12M
>> ["M"=Med instead of "L"ow speed, just undervolt more/less]
>
>Yeah, I'd rather bigger, quieter fan too.
>
>> http://www.bgmicro.com/prodinfo.asp?prodid=FAN1080
>
>That's a sweet deal!

Yep, 120mm fans are often higher priced but sometimes it's
just silly what a place will charge for a Panaflo, not to
mention Papst.

>
>> Installed about 2/3 of the way down towards the back such
>> that it blows under video and also above towards upper mobo
>
>I don't know -- I want that VRM to be "suffocating" with air flow, and it's a little higher up. I think the
>video's getting enough air from the intake, exhaust, and cpu as it is. Certainly it's the hotest of any card
>that'll ever be plugged into the board (don't you think?), and it is not, by any means, too hot to touch as it
>is. Higher placement would get the chipset too.

Is the chipset instable?
There isn't necessarily any need to cool the northbridge
beyond having a good margin of stability.

Unless you were overclocking, the VRM FETs should stay cool
enough too, providing overall chassis airflow is sufficient.
To a certain extent it comes back to basics, that the same
parts most vulnerable for most, might be for you. That
might include video (caps & fan(?)) and motherbaord caps.

Touch-test the motherboard caps... forget about the temp
measurements the system provides as they're not of a part
that has substantially short lifespan in the ranges
mentioned. The CPUs on the other hand, have a lower stable
temp, but it goes without saying that they must be kept cool
enough.

So my take on this is that until you know the temps of the
caps it's not really known whether there is any particular
need to go to elaborate measures putting more air on that
region, beyond simply increasing overall chassis flow. If
you really wanted highest rates on the VRM you'd not use a
side-panel fan at all, rather a bracket-mounted one just a
few cm above the area.

The suggestion for location of side-panel fan also took into
consideration that ultimately, you'll end up with a case
having good/quiet airflow that can be reused for the next
build, as the platform is upgrade-limited at this point,
eventually you may upgrade for performance reasons.