Bitch Session

Personally I think Microsoft dropping improvement support for Win2K Pro really sucks, any of us that know just how good Win2K Pro is, should be upset about this, Win2K Pro w SP4 actually performs better than Microsoft had expected it to, and is seriously cutting into their expectations of WinXP becoming the OP/SYS of choice.

Too many companies today are using Win2K Pro and their systems are running just fine, so obviously they're not too keen on changing to another OP/SYS when the one they're using is doing the job, not to mention the money involved, downtime, and possible problems with switching over to another OP/SYS.

Why drop improvement support on a perfectly good OP/SYS thats performing as well as Win2K Pro does, I know its about money, but sometimes Microshaft just doesn't make sense!

What do you think?

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I think Windows 2000 is 5 and a half years old. Let it die! :evil:

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Reply to Ned_Flanders

Both my mother and father are still running WinNT 2000, but they are old and resist change
XP is much better, and hey, if 2000 floats yer boat, sail away

<pre>°¤o,¸¸¸,o¤°`°¤o \\// o¤°`°¤o,¸¸¸,o¤°
And the sign says "You got to have a membership card to get inside" Huh
So I got me a pen and paper And I made up my own little sign</pre>

Reply to RichPLS

XP does not run on 486 systems anyway

<pre>°¤o,¸¸¸,o¤°`°¤o \\// o¤°`°¤o,¸¸¸,o¤°
And the sign says "You got to have a membership card to get inside" Huh
So I got me a pen and paper And I made up my own little sign</pre>

Reply to RichPLS

Oh Great! The only replies I get, are from Dumb and Dumber!

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Reply to 4ryan6

Cry me a river.

@ RichPLS - You are SO dumber! :lol:

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Reply to Ned_Flanders

ROFL How've you been doing Ned? I did give you prestige over Rich

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Reply to 4ryan6

Just cracking on you guys, I don't think either one of you is dumb, thats for sure!

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Reply to 4ryan6

Quote :

I think Windows 2000 is 5 and a half years old.

Its probably the best of Microsofts accomplishments besides XP, for the business world its still seriously hanging in there, and would stay a threat to XP if Microsoft hadn't dropped improvement support for it.

Which will cause problems in the long run security wise because some business owners just aren't going to spend the money to change to a new OP/SYS.

Quote :

Let it die!

That surely isn't up to me Ned, but I do dual boot with Win2K Pro and WinXP Pro, Win2K is my business end and XP is my play end of things.

Using both OP/SYS really gives me the opportunity to see the best and worst of both of them and 2K is still really good, especially after SP4 was released.

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Reply to 4ryan6

From what you posted there really wasn't anything worth replying to, So have a nice day! OK.

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Reply to 4ryan6

2k is good. XP has slight improvements over it, but until there is a major improvement over 2k, let it live. It uses AD and works with XP and Server nicely.

They're looking for the money, but it's also expensive to keep people around supporting that system. They want to use their talent that created 2k to update XP also.. which also requires a lot of time. I understand what you're saying and agree. I think 95/98/NT should die off.

But at my work.. we're still using things back to Win 3.11 on a very few computers. We have a huge amount of 95/98/ME..

I'm in the IT department. My boss doesn't want to move to VLK because he doesn't understand the benefits.

I'm glad that Microsoft is dropping support because that causes people to update their systems.. Crazy as it is, my IT department doesn't hold sway in telling users what OS they're going to be using.

This causes my company to get updated at least.

Reply to riser

I understand your point its amazing to me just how many major corporations are still using even Win95 on their systems that do not have internet capabilities, and they're like "Hey Its Working Just Fine For What We're Using It For.".

We're fooling ourselves if we think even dropping 2Ks improvement support, is the end of it, I do wonder when Microsoft was first pushing the heck out of XP, did they even realize how many corporations were still using systems like 95, 98, and NT, and had no intentions of changing?

It is a money thing as you said and Microsoft will be wanting to drop XP support, shortly after Longhorn is marketed, and I'll bet you some of these stubborn companies will still be running 95. ROFLMAO

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Reply to 4ryan6

Microsoft is trying to move from a feast/famine type market.. where they make huge surges of money in one year when they release a new OS or Office product.. then for 2-3 years they don't make any money.. that's where the VLK comes into play where you buy for 3 years.. they know their revenue for the next 3 years.. you can't blame them on that front.. by doing that, everyone would get XP.. business-wise.. if you don't go with that then they have to support older systems..

I see where they're coming from.. Bally's Total Fitness does the same thing.. you have to sign up for a 2-3 year contract at a set amount because they're on the public stock exchange.. investors want to know they're yearly revenue and know it'll hold steady.

Now, for my company.. we have more money than anyone knows what to do with.. its insane how much extra capital this company has.

But for some reason they don't want to upgrade computers until it dies.. and my manager really isn't up to date in the business world of computers.. he moved the company from a domain to a workgroup as it expanded.. he made things harder instead of easier.. because he didn't want to learn how to use 2k or XP in a domain.

Yet he won't push to make everyone update to at least 2000 and he won't push for a VLK agreement with microsoft.. so we spend ungodly amounts of money buying new versions of office.. we buy dell desktops and ibm laptop for some reason.. office versions are licenses while laptop and desktop OSs are per machine.. but we keep buying more and more office copies after a machine is dead.. when with the VLK we would already have it and not need to buy new..

it's crazy and it gives me a headache when I think about it.. heh.

Kudos to microsoft for taking a stance though.. but 2k should stick around... though having 1 OS to support would be much easier.. as most company IT departments find that ideal too.

Reply to riser

Win2k3 has huge improvements in Active Directory over Win2k's. There is a lot more customization/scalability in 2k3 over 2k.

Security improvements are the biggest I notice. 2k3 comes locked down and with basic security setup, while 2k comes unlocked.

For beginners, 2k3 requires a complex password. That's the first major noticable thing. 2k3's security has been overhauled.

If you don't notice an improvement from 2k to 2k3, it's about the same as saying you didn't notice an improvement from win2k to winxp?

Remote Desktop along is worthwhile.. it's the upgraded version of TC and it works so much better and a lot faster.

Reply to riser

Quote :

It's Bills way of showing kindness to people like me.

What do you mean?

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Reply to 4ryan6

He's referring to VLK copies of Windows.

But it's all recorded by Microsoft.. so when the agreement comes up for renewing (3 years) and you don't get the update from Microsoft, your Windows with VLK supposed is no longer supported..

Reply to riser

VLK meaning? Volume License Keyed copies I assume?

I don't have any experience with VLK copies or their restrictions, only OEM.

Quote :

But it's all recorded by Microsoft.. so when the agreement comes up for renewing (3 years) and you don't get the update from Microsoft, your Windows with VLK supposed is no longer supported..

Now that does seem seriously inconvenient to me, when you say no longer supported, are you actually saying the OP/SYS will not function anymore after the 3 yr time period?

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Reply to 4ryan6

Not sure how exactly it's not supported anymore.. it's what microsoft says.

I know the Keys expire after the contract. Maybe they won't allow updates or something to that effect. I don't know any companies that have hit their 3 year mark yet.. I don't think the 3 year mark ends (since the incorporation of the VLK) until the end of 2005 or 2006.

OEM is on a per computer basis, meaning if you buy a Dell computer, you can't install that OS on any other computer regardless. Retail means you own 1 legitimate copy per license purchased, like out of the store.

VLK means you can install as much as you want, but when it comes around, they have record of how many current are installed and the company pays a set price per piece of software.

For example.. you have 100 computers, that need 100 copies of 2003 office pro. M$ says you get a volumn discoun if you buy more.. so you agree to pay for 100 copies of each.. let's say for fun it's 10,000. You only use 90 of each.. so 180 out of your 200 you paid for.. you lose that money.
Let's say you use 120 on each, so 240, 40 over your 200. You pay a reduced amount for those extra 40.. could be 20 dollars a license. really cheap.. It basically ensures that after 3 years M$ will have no less than X amount but possibly Y amount more in revenue, but no less.

It's a marketing thing where they want their investors to know they have a solid revenue.. so for at least 3 years you know that Microsoft has money coming in. With people signing up for 3 years at a time, they easily over lap and money is constantly coming in.

But I think that after a certain time your VLK expires and you're issued new ones.. and your older ones are no longer supported for updates and such - based on a key code and installation date. I'm sure there will be a way to get around it though.

Reply to riser

Enterprise edition is just corporate. It means there are unlimited installs on that license. It can be installed unlimited and will never need to validate. I don't exactly know what happens after the 3 year term.. if they force a change in the key or if the company is fined if found out to be using that key code after it's expired.

Reply to riser

as i understand it they will still patch security holes as they come up. they just wont be making any improvements. how do you have a problem with this? do you expect the company that made your car to continue updating the engine after you have bought it just to make it a little better?

go tell your alien brothers, that ronnie cordova says they're gay!!! <A HREF="http://sockbaby.com" target="_new"> sock baby </A>

Reply to jihiggs

Thats really a lousy comparison [car and engine] to a software operating system, and I'm fully aware they will patch security holes, in Win2K its just since the release of SP4, 2K has really become an extremely dependable OP/SYS probably the best Microsoft has released yet, but it did take them to SP4 to get there.

I know Microsoft isn't full of stupid people they realize many more improvements and 2K will exceed XP, but they sure as hell don't want that now do they, although there are quite a lot of business's out there that already know this.

IMO 2K's continued improvements will seriously impeed Microsofts future sales because companies don't like giving up something thats working for them, and thats completely understandable because we're talking major amounts of money here, Microsoft wants it but a hell of a lot of companies don't want to spend it to upgrade Operating systems.

Microsoft would be rolling in the money if every company out there still running Win95, 98, 98SE, ME, and 2K, decided now, to switch to XP, but theres still companies today running XP SP1 that don't trust going to SP2 no matter how much hype and threats Microsoft has pitched on that one, because it cost money just to switch to SP2 in tech support, and if something goes wrong with a major corporation, it could be quite a financial disaster.

So I guess as a personal gripe, we've waited so long for operating systems from Microsoft to really be good and worth spending your money on, without having to reload your Operating system every couple of months because it turns to crap, that I'd like to see a really good operating system stick around for a while, is that really that hard for you to understand?

I dual boot Win2K Pro, and WinXP Pro so I get to see the two in operation every day and Microsoft can drop everything today, and I will still use Win2K Pro and so will a lot of others, and so do a lot of others!

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Reply to 4ryan6

I like 2k but I like XP also. As a tech, I find XP gives me more security and about the same control that 2k does. They're both good.

It's stupid for Microsoft to drop 2k support from an end user's view. But then again, they don't have a team of 10-15-20 people doing security for 2k. They have 100s, if 1000s doing security on it. It's getting tedious for them to keep putting the updates out.

As far as the money for Microsoft goes.. they came out with VLK Agreements and Open Agreements for this exact reason.

Currently, if you agree to a 3 year term with Microsoft for a set fee.. which a license is far cheaper with VLK than buying individually like one would do before.
Now the VLK does 2 major things that is very smart on Microsoft side.

1) Under VLK agreement, the company is entitled to any and all upgrades for any software covered in their agreement. If you have all Windows 2000 machines, you can upgrade to Windows XP for no cost. This goes for 3 years until the contract is up for renewal. If you signed up at the right time, you might be lucky enough to have started with Win2k, then get WinXP free and MAYBE even get Vista free before you have to renew your contract. That means, you pay 1 price, you get access to all agreed software and a set amount of licenses.

2) VLK keeps Microsoft stable financially. Every year they can guarentee companies to resign for 3 years. Financial security for 3 years becaue of that contract and after it expires, probably all or a large majority will sign up again for another 3 years. Financial security.

The last company I worked for went through 2 major upgrades. First, we were on Win NT workstation. We joined the VLK and moved up to 2000 which was awesome. Then under that same contract when XP came out, we staged an upgrade for that. I left just before the WinXP roll-out happened. The best part was we never had to pay an extra dime to go from NT, to 2000, to XP. Even with our servers to go from NT to 2000 to 2003.

You buy 1 license, you get the latest software for the next 3 years for that 1 fee. It won't cost you anything more.. it's actually a perk.

Which is why Microsoft can say they're not going to support 2k any more, because it's mainly companies that are getting effected, but they better be on VLK otherwise they're wasting a lot of money. They can upgrade to XP SP2 for free and it's very stable and shouldn't cause any problems. If they need something older, they're free to use anything since they actually own ALL version of whatever software they purchased with their VLK.

Reply to riser

Quote :

So I guess as a personal gripe, we've waited so long for operating systems from Microsoft to really be good and worth spending your money on, without having to reload your Operating system every couple of months because it turns to crap, that I'd like to see a really good operating system stick around for a while, is that really that hard for you to understand?

ITS 5 FREAKIN YEARS OLD! xp is just as good when you scale down the services you dont need. that is an eternity in the computer biz. is it so hard for you to understand that you can only make old technology better to a point, after that its pointless to keep modifying old code to make it do somthing it wasnt meant to, just make a new os from the bottom up. its not like xp is bad at all. 2k will do what it does today, 50 years from now. if you need it to do somthing else you need to buy a better os. why do you expect ms to pump money into a product that is no longer their main selling item? you have already bought it, who in their right mind would expect a company to continue improving a product for free years after they bought it? ms does it anyway then 5 years later your pissing and moaning that your prescious os isnt going to get any better even though you had no plans of paying for the further developement. your just a whiny spoiled brat that wants the world and doesnt want to pay for it. how can you complain about not getting somthing for free that they gave you for 5 years when they didnt even have to?

go tell your alien brothers, that ronnie cordova says they're gay!!! <A HREF="http://sockbaby.com" target="_new"> sock baby </A>

Reply to jihiggs

Post deleted by 4ryan6

Reply to 4ryan6

Post deleted by 4ryan6

Reply to 4ryan6

then what are you complaining about!!!

go tell your alien brothers, that ronnie cordova says they're gay!!! <A HREF="http://sockbaby.com" target="_new"> sock baby </A>

Reply to jihiggs

and you're still the closed minded self righteous fool i always remembered.

go tell your alien brothers, that ronnie cordova says they're gay!!! <A HREF="http://sockbaby.com" target="_new"> sock baby </A>

Reply to jihiggs

Below is a quote from one of your posts to someone in the Other Sections Gay Marriage thread, by the way you were acting in that thread it almost seemed like you were professing to be a Christian.

Quote :

the story here is you have no idea what being a christian means. you have studied and studied but learned nothing. and i got all that from just a few sentances of yours.

What do you think of the examples we're setting here today jihiggs, I think we can do better don't you?

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Reply to 4ryan6

our little spat here could be considered childish but i make no excuses for what i said in that thread, it is what i beleive and i would say it again. yes i am a christian.

go tell your alien brothers, that ronnie cordova says they're gay!!! <A HREF="http://sockbaby.com" target="_new"> sock baby </A>

Reply to jihiggs

Good you're a Christian, believe it or not so am I, you don't have to make excuses for that thread thats not why I posted it, I posted it because you can be quite reasonable at times and I really don't have anything against you.

I know we've had words in the past but it doesn't have to be an ongoing thing.

As far as this thread is concerned I just like the Win2K OP/SYS but what you've said is right on the money, it is 5 yrs old and being phased out and spending money updating code is not the way to go for something thats going to end up a dead stick anyway.

I just got mad when you ended it up with insults, I thought that was uncalled for, and I didn't act any better.

OK so neither of us is perfect, and it was childish so lets just at least try to be civil towards each other I'm game if you are.

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Reply to 4ryan6

...here we go again.

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Reply to Ned_Flanders

I thought you were Ryan, but you are now Game?

<pre>°¤o,¸¸¸,o¤°`°¤o \\// o¤°`°¤o,¸¸¸,o¤°
And the sign says "You got to have a membership card to get inside" Huh
So I got me a pen and paper And I made up my own little sign</pre>

Reply to RichPLS

Hey I blow it on a regular basis Ned, but I am trying to do better, at least give me that OK.

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Reply to 4ryan6

Maybe, Maybe Not!

I do have to say you remind me of a Vulture Rich, always showing up to pick the meat off the carcas, after the fact, at least Ned stands his own ground, I do respect him for that and as far as I'm concerned I've said and made my points, we're talking about an OP/SYS being phased out here and my comments were really in appreciation of a job well done by Microsoft with Win2K, but it doesn't seem that anyone got that from what I've said, it appears that I was only understood to try and force Microsoft to resurrect the dead, well thats just not the case.

So Microsoft well done on your accomplishment with Win2K, I sincerely hope the future will hold equally successful accomplishments in your future OP/SYS developements, because a lot of us do depend on you being successful! Ryan

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Reply to 4ryan6

Microsoft WV debuts soon, on a PC near you! [caw caw caw]

<pre>°¤o,¸¸¸,o¤°`°¤o \\// o¤°`°¤o,¸¸¸,o¤°
And the sign says "You got to have a membership card to get inside" Huh
So I got me a pen and paper And I made up my own little sign</pre>

Reply to RichPLS

BTW, American Eagle is just a glorified buzzard...

<pre>°¤o,¸¸¸,o¤°`°¤o \\// o¤°`°¤o,¸¸¸,o¤°
And the sign says "You got to have a membership card to get inside" Huh
So I got me a pen and paper And I made up my own little sign</pre>

Reply to RichPLS

ROFLMAO! Pretty Good Rich!

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Reply to 4ryan6

Quote :

its pointless to keep modifying old code to make it do somthing it wasnt meant to, just make a new os from the bottom up.

An excellent point you made and from an angle I hadn't even looked at it from, I guess my angle is from a consumers point of view of frustrating past experiences with Microsofts various existing operating systems and seeing them finally have a really good one thats going to be put on the shelf, and reluctant to let it go, but technology moves on and so must we, if we want to stay current and up to date with technological hardware and software changes.

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Reply to 4ryan6

I wish other programs did this more often, Using AutoDesk's Land Desktop Survey is a pain, and has only had cosmetic changes since R-14, but you pay through the nose for upgrades, or else you lose right to upgrade!
MS is tame compared to AutoDesk.

<pre>°¤o,¸¸¸,o¤°`°¤o \\// o¤°`°¤o,¸¸¸,o¤°
And the sign says "You got to have a membership card to get inside" Huh
So I got me a pen and paper And I made up my own little sign</pre>

Reply to RichPLS

Imagine the disgust if MS said you have two years from each release to upgrade to newest version or next purchase will be full price!

<pre>°¤o,¸¸¸,o¤°`°¤o \\// o¤°`°¤o,¸¸¸,o¤°
And the sign says "You got to have a membership card to get inside" Huh
So I got me a pen and paper And I made up my own little sign</pre>

Reply to RichPLS

Good Point, but Microsoft still has companies out there using operating systems as old as Win95, now whether all those business's are connected to the internet or not I don't know, some I do know for sure are not, but they are small grocery chains, tire stores, repair shops, and up to 3 yrs ago a local hospital in my locality was still running Win95, when I found that out I couldn't believe it.

I guess eventually they're going to end up on a subscription basis or something, but what about companies that refuse to upgrade that Microsoft can't touch, like the ones I mentioned thats going on all across the country, it seems things like activation keys and such being an afterthought on MS's part are going to bite them in the rear for sure, but we will suffer for it in the prices we'll have to pay to make up the difference.

Any business isolated from the internet doesn't matter what OP/SYS they run to conduct their everyday business functions, as long as the OP/SYS is doing its job, so whats the deal there?

MS cannot make these types of business's upgrade, what could they possibly offer them to get them to do so, they would almost have to buy the OP/SYS back from them at such a rate that they couldn't refuse the offer, but there in again if they're completely isolated from the internet, why do they need to upgrade?

I'm not saying this as an arguement point of view but from a fact point of view, I don't know if you're aware of the existing companies still using older operating systems but they are out there.

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Reply to 4ryan6

I think they are aware, just wave they hands in the are like they just don't care. I mean they supplied a product, and it outlived the PC's life expectancy installed on, and this makes those users the minority.
Same way with AutoDesk.
You bought it once, now keep buying it over and over or else we don't need you.

<pre>°¤o,¸¸¸,o¤°`°¤o \\// o¤°`°¤o,¸¸¸,o¤°
And the sign says "You got to have a membership card to get inside" Huh
So I got me a pen and paper And I made up my own little sign</pre>

Reply to RichPLS

Quote :

I mean they supplied a product, and it outlived the PC's life expectancy installed on,

ROFL Some of the business's I mentioned are still running the old PC's, they're like Timex watches, take a licking and keep on ticking, now the majority upgraded the PC's a step or two and reloaded the old OP/SYS on them. I think for some upgrading the OP/SYS also means replacing computers, because some of the computers still running do not meet the minimum requirements of XP. So those are even looking at more money to upgrade, and the longer they wait the more its probably going to cost them from this point.

AutoDesk is that some kind of CAD software?

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Reply to 4ryan6

Quote :

I think Windows 2000 is 5 and a half years old. Let it die :evil:

Would you do the honors and perform the funeral services Ned? :frown:

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Reply to 4ryan6

Yes AutoDesk Land Developemt Desktop with Civil/Survey runs around $9,000 per seat, and upgrades for around $3,000 per year current and if you do not upgrade within 2 years of new release, you have to start anew with purchase of a seat.
This inlcudes AutoCAD.

<pre>°¤o,¸¸¸,o¤°`°¤o \\// o¤°`°¤o,¸¸¸,o¤°
And the sign says "You got to have a membership card to get inside" Huh
So I got me a pen and paper And I made up my own little sign</pre>

Reply to RichPLS

Agreed. Why pay the extra money for XP. Just for the eye candy. My Question to M$ They are Beta testing Messenger 7.5. But I don't have XP or greater. So when Beta testing is over. All the millons of people who don't have XP can't use Messenger 7.5. Smart real smart.

Reply to HardWareBoss

A lot of people are waiting for Longhorn. Now Vista before changing OS's

Reply to HardWareBoss

Forum Windows 2000/NT : Windows 2000/NT General Discussion - Bitch Session

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