Steve Bonoit -- Please Help

First off, I'm not Steve (and probably don't know as much).
Second, I don't pretend to know the absolutely factual answer, but I do have my own idea about this...

Like most high-tech products, cpu's are put through a Quality Control (QC) testing process in order to ascertain if they meet spec. Therefore, it's only logical (at least to me) that the 200MHz DDR T-birds are QC'd to only satisfy 200MHz performance, whereas the 266MHz DDR T-birds are QC-tested to satisfy 266MHz performance. So IMO, some percentage of 200MHz T-birds (had they been subjected to 266MHz QC) would be rejected at that higher performance spec.

In all likelihood, the odds are that you can unlock a 200MHz T-bird, change the multiplier on the board or bios, and get the same results for less $$$ (many people have). BUT there is some element of risk, and surely AMD won't guaranty your desired result!!!

Damn, I am lucky I really started reading this forum before taking an OEM C or a B Athlon...I bet a lot of people are saying "dammit" right now.

*smiles*

=Quantum
AO Admin
The Dr.Twister Network
http://ao.drtwister.com

What I forgot to mention is this is also the reason why OEM CPUs carry only a 90-day warranty, while BOXED CPUs carry a 3-year warranty!

Steve Benoit

Stable Technologies
'The way IT should be!'

Stable, is it really worth it to the average user to buy the retail version? I checked on pricewatch and the 850 t-bird retail version costs 60% more, and the 1.2 ghz is over $50 more. I suppose for the 1.2ghz it is worth it, but the 850 which I'm looking at is really a big difference...

is it worth it...to me?

Really appreciate all the responses. I've got the answer I didn't get elsewhere.

Very sorry for the mis-spelling of your last name Steve.
I guess it just shows both my fingers & mind need to be upgraded once I identify the bottleneck.

Fanbelt1

I'm replying to answer questions regarding the OEM versus Boxes questions in another chain, thus saving myself from having to retype all of this stuff over again. The comments in this string go a long way to answering the questions in recent strings.

Thanks
Steve Benoit


Stable Technologies
'The way IT should be!'

It means that if you buy an OEM CPU it will most likely (95% likely) be aluminum, if you buy a Boxed CPU AT OR ABOVE 1.2GHz it will be copper. They put that in because

1) They don't want you to know there is a difference.
2) They don't want you to know how to get copper.
3) They can't guarantee which of the two you will get because of items 1 & 2.


*** Please note the correction above made on 4/24/01 It now says, "AT OR ABOVE 1.2GHz", whereas I accidentally put "Above" in there before... Sorry for the confusion folks.


Steve Benoit


Stable Technologies
'The way IT should be!'<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by stable on 04/24/01 03:41 AM.</EM></FONT></P>

95% likely to get Aluminum.

Steve Benoit

Stable Technologies
'The way IT should be!'

So where can I get a MB bundle assembled and tested with a copper 1.33 266fsb in a a7v133a w/256 pc133 cas2 name brand memory and know that's what I'm going to get! I hate getting screwed!!! and I almost did! Thanks!!!!!!!

We have those systems here, or you can find a number of on-line sources for purchasing that configuration. I would ONLY recommend finding an Authorized AMD and Asus dealer and you must INSIST on getting the empty boxes and ALL documentation. We include those things standard with every system, but you should ask when it comes to others. What's more, you may want to consider calling your local dealers, since if you should have questions or problems, they will be there for you whereas some of the online houses don't have that kind of reputation. You may pay $20 or $30 more using the method, but for that little expense, ease of mind is well worth it.

Of course your final option is to buy all the stuff at the best price and put it together yourself. The biggest disadvantage to this scenario is that you wouldn't get an OEM copy of your operating system which has MANY advantages included preloaded cab files in the Windows/Options/cabs directory. Additionally, you would have to spend quite a few hours doing updates that are normally done for you by the reputable dealers.

One of the main reasons why we don’t do online board only sales (or many I should say) is because we want to avoid the support hassles associated with having to explain all of the steps necessary to build a stable system. Especially, by people who are using problematic or inferior components. By doing a complete system build, we are assured that all of the settings are correct and that the drives, RAM, CPU, Power Supply and cards are all installed in the right places and are using the latest and greatest drivers.

Sure, it takes us some time to do this, but these configurations yield much faster benchmarks and are rock solid stable. What’s more, when you plug them it in, the only thing that you need to do to start using the system is enter in your name, and the serial number (off the sticker on the back of the case). If you look for updates, you won’t find any since everything (AND I MEAN EVERYTHING) is current.

You should look for a dealer in your area that builds systems in this manner. You’ll save yourself a TON of money in the long run, not to mention time, grief and frustrations. Rule #1 when talking to a dealer is to ASK FOR REFERENCES! If they can't give you at least 3 references, don't waste your time. You should call all of these references and talk to them about what they purchased and how they feel about what they bought. Additionally, you should ask about the service they've received and any support issues. I always like to ask if they have received follow-ups and notifications about new drivers or other useful information. You would be surprised how many haven't.

Good luck in your purchase.
Steve Benoit


Stable Technologies
'The way IT should be!'

Hi Steve,

Just got through reading and sorting out what you have written, and the various points you raised. Pretty informative stuff to be sure. Just one question though: You say that OEM CPU's carry a 90 day warranty. Well, around 3 weeks ago, I purchased an OEM Athlon 1.33 for just under $300 -- and was informed that the warranty on all OEM CPU's was 30 days, and not 90. At least that was what this particular vendor told me at a local computer fair, as well as a good majority of vendors who claimed the same 30 day window. Just thought I'd mention that :-)

Sidebar -- I'm not too worried about the OEM vs the retail controversy, since I've been able to overclock my OEM 1.33 to a stable 1.5 GHz in Win_98.

However, I most definitely WILL keep a note on the differences between the Texas fab aluminum vs the copper Dresen fab, and how they are packaged and sold. I had simply not a clue otherwise.

Again, really appreciate the info.

RJD

Just as a heads up, the color means nothing at all. Some aluminum CPUs have blue cores, some do not. Color has ABSOLUTELY no relationship to where the CPU was made. This has been tested and proven by not only our lab, but others as well. Some basic research on the web should easily verify this information.

If a CPU only comes with a 30-day warranty, chances are VERY GOOD that it is from an outside of channel wholesaler. What this means (in a nutshell) is that the CPU is the lowest possible grade of processor and while it may overclock to a high rate, it will run hot and it will burn out far sooner than a copper core CPU carrying a 3-year warranty… Additionally, chances are also very good that it is an OEM reject in which case it will burnout even sooner.

While I hate to be the bearer of bad news, the truth only hurts when people don’t investigate what they are buying. While there’s not much I can do about people buying low-grade junk from others, I can only reiterate that we don’t sell, endorse or recommend any of the untraceable products outside the normal distribution chain. If the person tells you that you are only getting a 30-day warranty, then chances are VERY GOOD that the CPU that you are buying is anything but quality and CERTAINLY not a copper core. The heat generated should be you first clue, burnup should be your final.

Steve Benoit


Stable Technologies
'The way IT should be!'

Thanks very much for the info. This clears up a lot for me, I was planning to order an OEM 1.3GHz Athalon-C, but now I know better.

Are the fans that come with the box suitable if I am not planning to overclock or should I really get a different one?

Falwynn

In reply to the question about the Rev. 1.05 board.

We haven't seen that one yet. We have 1.02 and 1.03 boards in our last two shipments, which use separate BIOS to control ATA-100 functions. It appears as though Asus has finally integrated this now, in which case we are mostly curious to know whether they plan on cutting the number of ATA interfaces from four to two. Thus giving you the ability to only have 4 drives instead of 8.

In the manuals (1.02 and 1.03) the ports add up to two being ATA-66 while the other two are ATA-100. We were actually only able to locate the 1.05 manual online by changing the ftp address listed (pointing to the 1.02 manual) to a 5 at the end, as it is not listed on any Asus site. (We actually only found the 1.03 manual on the Germany site). From what we have found out, this board just left Taiwan on March 26th, so we're not really surprised that we haven't seen it yet as we maintain about a 20-day supply, plus we are typically getting stock from distributors maintaining a pretty large stock, so chances are fair that they had not cut into the 1.05 stock yet when we placed our last order.

The big surprise in the new manual is the mention of a new motherboard, the Asus A7V133-C. We suspect (as with the CUSL2) that this -C version identifies a new "Cheaper" version of the A7V133 with fewer features. The manual identifies the Promise ATA-100 chip as an option, so we have a feeling that the -C board will only have 2 IDE connections, but with Asus, who knows for sure.

We are also interested in determining other impacts as a result of modifications. So far the highlights look like this.

It appears as though they are using Promise (FastTrak lite) RAID control on only the RAID IDE connectors, allowing up to 2 drives in a RAID 0 configuration (one drive on each cable) and 2 or 3 drives in a RAID 1 array. (Thus, you still only see up to 4 drives on the 2 "NON-RAID" controllers in your system BIOS)

The regular channels look as though they have been upgraded from ATA66 to ATA100. There may be more changes, but again we won't know for sure until we have some for testing.

This is just another example of Asus not providing information to the channel when they make revision modifications. Something that is defined in detail as a requirement for ISO 9001/9002 compliance and certification.

As soon as some arrive, we'll post our findings.

Steve Benoit





Stable Technologies
'The way IT should be!'

Steve,

Asus never updates their site. It is rather difficult getting any information on the boards you mentioned as well as the Sis730 based and other integrated boards for example. I think it takes them months to translate their info.

Regarding the warranty I notice that OEM chips come with 15,20,30,90 day, and 1 yr warrantys. Am I to assume that these vendors are getting different grades of rejects? I've already decided to go retail, but I'm curious.

Also, I've heard that the AVIA are better than the AXIA. Any thoughts on what is so special about these chips? Have you run your own tests on them?

I fixed your last name btw...

<font color=red>Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.</font color=red>
Pablo Picasso

LOL.. Thanks!

The warranties offered are simply whatever the dealer is giving. The factory warranty is 90-days on all OEM CPUs. Dealers can of course put whatever number they want on them, but they usually do this because:

a) It is a CPU with no warranty (because it is unauthorized and therefore CAN'T be returned) = anything less than 90 days.
b) It is a CPU with a 90-day warranty (FACTORY OEM, HOPEFULLY, but not definitely, still could be an unauthorized OEM CPU)
c) Either of the above, but they want to inflate the value and therefore are giving 1-year.

In any case, our experience is that none of these numbers mean a darn thing, because many of these guys find an excuse not to take it back. Thus, the Boxed is really the only way to go, because AMD will always honor their warranties (sometimes PAST 3-years).

As for the AVIA thing, who knows? I've seen so many different flavors at this point it's hard to keep track. I'm not sure how wild I am about getting too far into the batch code discussions either, as around 10 people showed up today with OEM CPUs wanting us to tell them what they had. We simply told them that they had an OEM CPU, beyond that, there's not much we could tell them.

Steve Benoit


Stable Technologies
'The way IT should be!'

RE: Your Intel guy.

He either doesn't know what he's talking about or he simply just lied about it. They really don't want anyone to know about this issue, as if it were common knowledge, who would ever buy an OEM CPU? This would really impact the profit margins at Dell, Gateway, HP, Compaq and many other "Branded" systems who use OEM CPUs.

The automated QA process at Intel determines what a processor will be (I know, I was there when they developed it.) As previously stated at length, the automated rejection system starts with the highest grade and works its way down. As processors are rejected at a certain speed/multiplier, (for any number of reasons, heat and bad circuits, just being two) they move onto the next grade level down for testing. In order to understand this, you really need to understand HOW exactly processors are made (on a large sheet, not one at a time). Again, as previously stated, OEM is the lowest possible grade for every speed/bus rating. If they didn’t sell it at a discount as OEM, they would have to junk it all together.

The logic of thinking that Intel, AMD and others are willing to write off 50+% in profits because of a lack of a .03 cardboard box, .02 plastic inner tray and .05 manual is a tad ridiculous if you really stop and think about it.

As for the included factory CPU/FAN... Nope, the copper cores (in the case of AMD CPUs) run much cooler, thus the factory assemblies work great, even when overclocking to 20% and in some cases higher... ZERO temperature increase on copper CPUs as indicated in this post and confirmed in other threads here.

In the Intel camp, HEATSINK/FAN assembly sizes are increased accordingly as the CPU specification increases. Keep in mind that a boxed CPU will AUTOMATICALLY run cooler than an OEM CPU because of it's acceptance rating in its' speed class. Thus, the factory fans are capable of adequately cooling the CPU. Defined by Intel QC strictly as a mechanism capable of keeping a non-rejected premium (boxed) CPU “operating within the predefined temperature scale” with cooling capabilities to support “up to a 20% increase above the predefined rating, caused by environmental conditions and/or overclocking.” The documentation goes on to describe recommendations for case fan specifications when using secondary components within the assembly which may increase the environmental temperatures and affect performance of not only the CPU Heatsink/Fan, but also the CPU itself due to the altered conditions.

Steve Benoit


Stable Technologies
'The way IT should be!'

So is there any reason why my Retail 1.33 Athlon "C" runs at 56 *C? I use the HS/Fan that came with it, and the thermal pad that was already on the HS and it was at 59 I changed to paste and it is at 56 now. So much for running cooler, oh its AXIA also. Also since you know a bunch that I don't, should I return the chip for replacement? It has a darker color in two areas, almost looks burnt. It never was above 60*c to my knowledge. I also heard that a chip running hot like that could actually be a defect in the chip, is that true? Sorry for bad grammer.


Crap, all the good ones are already taken.

Steve,

First, I might be wrong but I am getting the impression that you work or own a pc components shop/website? What is the URL or physical address?

Next, what you stated about OEM processors with short warranties like 30, 60, or 90 makes sense. If a retailer is offering a "one year dealer warranty" is that more likely a copper core? Or is it them simply trying to get more sales on their copper core cpus over the next competitor?

Finally, what markings on the CPU will tell you that is was made in Dresden and not in Texas?

Thanks in advance....Chris

It worked yesterday!

Also Steve, I'd like to point out that several years ago(Intel)chips on these wafer sheets were getting different quality chips depending on where they were in the sheet.If I remember correctly, the inner most chips in the wafer were usually the ones used in retail "boxed" cpu and would usually o/c better and run cooler. Thanks for the headsup on the copper cpu

I decided to go for the RETAIL/BOXED version for many of the reasons listed in this thread. I order one (5/2) and it was backordered till (5/18). Today, I get a message that it is backordered till July or so. Obviously, I'm not too happy since this is the last component I need.

Can anyone recommend a vendor with reasonable prices (Say $220-ish) for a 1.33GHz RETAIL? (In stock would be nice

Thanks,
MCI

I think my finger is still shaking from wanting to click the purchase button. It does seem like they know what's going on because they are charging $40 more for Boxed vs. OEM. Most other places are only $15-$20.

Tell me it's slow and it wasn't worth it!

My GeForce3 is gathering dust ...