Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

http://tuxtops.com/?q=node/241

The above was Slashdotted a couple of minutes ago. Some final words: "If you
are after gaming, multimedia, good WiFi+Bluetooth support, a lot of
accessories and versatility, go with Pocket PC. If you are after small and
stylish devices with good battery life, simple interface and simple PIM
apps, go with PalmOS."

I hope it is interesting and helpful enough for me to point out in this
newsgroup. The conclusions reached are similar to the ones I have argued
for in the past.

Roy

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Roy Schestowitz wrote:

> http://tuxtops.com/?q=node/241
>
> The above was Slashdotted a couple of minutes ago. Some final words: "If
> you are after gaming, multimedia, good WiFi+Bluetooth support, a lot of
> accessories and versatility, go with Pocket PC. If you are after small and
> stylish devices with good battery life, simple interface and simple PIM
> apps, go with PalmOS."
>
> I hope it is interesting and helpful enough for me to point out in this
> newsgroup. The conclusions reached are similar to the ones I have argued
> for in the past.

Looks like wince advocacy to me. "Palm sync is unnecessarily complex and
confusing" indeed. What part of "push the button" is he having trouble
with?

> Roy

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:14:32 -0400, "J. Clarke"
<jclarke.usenet@snet.net.invalid> wrote:

>Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>
>> http://tuxtops.com/?q=node/241
>>
>> The above was Slashdotted a couple of minutes ago. Some final words: "If
>> you are after gaming, multimedia, good WiFi+Bluetooth support, a lot of
>> accessories and versatility, go with Pocket PC. If you are after small and
>> stylish devices with good battery life, simple interface and simple PIM
>> apps, go with PalmOS."
>>
>> I hope it is interesting and helpful enough for me to point out in this
>> newsgroup. The conclusions reached are similar to the ones I have argued
>> for in the past.
>
>Looks like wince advocacy to me. "Palm sync is unnecessarily complex and
>confusing" indeed. What part of "push the button" is he having trouble
>with?

Acually, looks to me like he used to use a Palm and has switched to
WinCE, so is arguing to justify his choice. Notice how many of his
WinCE "disadvantages" are cancelled by noting an application which
fixes them. None of the Palm's are. And 30,000 Palm apps versus 20,000
for WinCE? Every other estimate I've seen gives more like a 5 to 10
to 1 ratio.

In short, really pathetic.

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 15:00:15 -0500, Mike Koenecke <mkoenecke@spamhole.com>
spewed forth these words of wisdom:


>
>Acually, looks to me like he used to use a Palm and has switched to
>WinCE, so is arguing to justify his choice. Notice how many of his
>WinCE "disadvantages" are cancelled by noting an application which
>fixes them. None of the Palm's are. And 30,000 Palm apps versus 20,000
>for WinCE? Every other estimate I've seen gives more like a 5 to 10
>to 1 ratio.
>
>In short, really pathetic.

And they don't mention Palm's 320 x 480 support.

--
"I'm not a cool person in real life, but I play one on the Internet"
Galley

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Hello, J. Clarke!
You wrote:

> Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>
> > http://tuxtops.com/?q=node/241
> >
> > The above was Slashdotted a couple of minutes ago. Some final words:
> > "If
> > you are after gaming, multimedia, good WiFi+Bluetooth support, a lot
> > of
> > accessories and versatility, go with Pocket PC. If you are after small
> > and
> > stylish devices with good battery life, simple interface and simple
> > PIM
> > apps, go with PalmOS."
> >
> > I hope it is interesting and helpful enough for me to point out in
> > this
> > newsgroup. The conclusions reached are similar to the ones I have
> > argued
> > for in the past.
>
> Looks like wince advocacy to me. "Palm sync is unnecessarily complex
> and
> confusing" indeed. What part of "push the button" is he having trouble
> with?
>
I agree. The author of the article seems to be a tad disingenuous. The
comments below the article are pretty informative and do a good job of
correcting the most glaring inaccuracies.
--
<BANG> "Let her go! Damn, did that backwards."
-- Virgil Webster from The Inside

Roberto Castillo
robertocastillo@ameritech.net

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

This article presents several glaring inaccuracies:

-2. OS looks better, more modern, than PalmOS. Support for Clear Type.

This is subjective; many find the Palm interface more attractive.
Support for anti-aliasing can be obtained with 3rd-party utilities
(FontSmoother).

-3. It has good support for the Exchange server that most businesses
care about.

I don't know how well it works, but Versamail also supports Exchange.

-9. Runs on faster XScale hardware than PalmOS usually.

This is debatable, as PocketPC is often thought to be more sluggish
than Palm.

-11. Apps use the full 320x240 resolution (instead of the 160x160 that
most PalmOS apps use and double-pixel at 320x320)

Almost all Palm apps run at the full 320x320; some Palms even have
320x480 screens.

-11. Better office format compliancy, MS Office is usually bundled with
the PDA

All recent PalmOne PDAs come with Documents To Go, which is actually
just as good as MS Office (check at CNET.com)

-15. Able to install/run apps from flash addon cards and built-in
storage

Last time I checked, my Tungsten E (which is now several years old)
could run apps from the SD card...

-17. More PocketPC devices include a microphone for voice notes. 18.
Supports resolutions up to VGA and there are already at least 5 devices
shipped with it.

Most PocketPC devices have a 320x240 screen; most Palm devices have a
320x320 screen... Also, support for VGA is not built into the OS on
most of these devices.

-2. Most apps run at 160x160, even if the screen is capable of 320x320
or more (they double-pixel).

That's just wrong; ALL the apps I use run at 320x320 properly.

-5. PalmOS doesn't let you install applications on built-in storage or
flash cards, at least not without third party, nasty, hacks. Only data
can be installed on flash cards

False.

-9. Hey PalmOS, the mid-90s called, they want their UI and fonts back

I agree that native Palm fonts aren't great, but they can be changed
easily enough (FontSmoother again). As for an ugly UI... Am I the only
one who hates that nauseating shade of turquoise they put on buttons?

-10. Doesn't use memory as efficiently as PPC does.

While the dynamic memory system on PocketPC might be better (I don't
really know), Palm apps are about twice as memory-efficient...

Looks like the writer of that wasn't exactly up-to-date...

I rest my case.

(please feel free to correct any mistakes I may have made)

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

nekrophage wrote:

> This article presents several glaring inaccuracies:
>
> -2. OS looks better, more modern, than PalmOS. Support for Clear Type.
>
> This is subjective; many find the Palm interface more attractive.
> Support for anti-aliasing can be obtained with 3rd-party utilities
> (FontSmoother).
>
> -3. It has good support for the Exchange server that most businesses
> care about.
>
> I don't know how well it works, but Versamail also supports Exchange.

Depends on what you want to do with Exchange--it does more than just
mail--it provides central management of just about everything that is a
standard feature of Palm Desktop and adds some bells and whistles such as
shared calendars--it also allows an organization to back all that stuff up
in one shot.

However, it is fully integrated with Outlook and hotsynching with Outlook
provides as much Exchange support as I've ever needed in a PDA (I also have
cell phone, desk phone, and smart wristwatch support that way).

There are also direct synchronization solutions from OneBridge and
Intellisync, and most Palms that can access the Web can access Exchange
Server directly via the Web interface.

> -9. Runs on faster XScale hardware than PalmOS usually.
>
> This is debatable, as PocketPC is often thought to be more sluggish
> than Palm.
>
> -11. Apps use the full 320x240 resolution (instead of the 160x160 that
> most PalmOS apps use and double-pixel at 320x320)
>
> Almost all Palm apps run at the full 320x320; some Palms even have
> 320x480 screens.
>
> -11. Better office format compliancy, MS Office is usually bundled with
> the PDA
>
> All recent PalmOne PDAs come with Documents To Go, which is actually
> just as good as MS Office (check at CNET.com)
>
> -15. Able to install/run apps from flash addon cards and built-in
> storage
>
> Last time I checked, my Tungsten E (which is now several years old)
> could run apps from the SD card...

Ditto my NX-70.

> -17. More PocketPC devices include a microphone for voice notes.

Maybe "more" do but whether this is an advantage depends on your
environment. Some businesses do not want employees walking around with
recording devices in their pockets. In any case my NX-70 has no problem
recording voice, still pictures, or video.

> 18.
> Supports resolutions up to VGA and there are already at least 5 devices
> shipped with it.
>
> Most PocketPC devices have a 320x240 screen; most Palm devices have a
> 320x320 screen... Also, support for VGA is not built into the OS on
> most of these devices.
>
> -2. Most apps run at 160x160, even if the screen is capable of 320x320
> or more (they double-pixel).
>
> That's just wrong; ALL the apps I use run at 320x320 properly.
>
> -5. PalmOS doesn't let you install applications on built-in storage or
> flash cards, at least not without third party, nasty, hacks. Only data
> can be installed on flash cards
>
> False.
>
> -9. Hey PalmOS, the mid-90s called, they want their UI and fonts back
>
> I agree that native Palm fonts aren't great, but they can be changed
> easily enough (FontSmoother again). As for an ugly UI... Am I the only
> one who hates that nauseating shade of turquoise they put on buttons?
>
> -10. Doesn't use memory as efficiently as PPC does.
>
> While the dynamic memory system on PocketPC might be better (I don't
> really know), Palm apps are about twice as memory-efficient...
>
> Looks like the writer of that wasn't exactly up-to-date...
>
> I rest my case.
>
> (please feel free to correct any mistakes I may have made)

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

> -3. It has good support for the Exchange server that most businesses
> care about.
>
> I don't know how well it works, but Versamail also supports Exchange.

There are Palm apps that support MS software but MS Software does NOT
support palm devices... I wonder why.

> -9. Runs on faster XScale hardware than PalmOS usually.
>
> This is debatable, as PocketPC is often thought to be more sluggish
> than Palm.

Agreed

> -11. Better office format compliancy, MS Office is usually bundled with
> the PDA
>
> All recent PalmOne PDAs come with Documents To Go, which is actually
> just as good as MS Office (check at CNET.com)

I find it to be better than syncing office docs on a PPC

> -15. Able to install/run apps from flash addon cards and built-in
> storage
>
> Last time I checked, my Tungsten E (which is now several years old)
> could run apps from the SD card...

As witht the Tungsten C

> -17. More PocketPC devices include a microphone for voice notes. 18.
> Supports resolutions up to VGA and there are already at least 5 devices
> shipped with it.
>
> Most PocketPC devices have a 320x240 screen; most Palm devices have a
> 320x320 screen... Also, support for VGA is not built into the OS on
> most of these devices.

My Tungsten C has a voice recorder built in as with most cell phones and MP3
players these days. Plus, how often are they used? I've never actually
needed or used mine other than to test it..

> -2. Most apps run at 160x160, even if the screen is capable of 320x320
> or more (they double-pixel).
>
> That's just wrong; ALL the apps I use run at 320x320 properly.
>
> -5. PalmOS doesn't let you install applications on built-in storage or
> flash cards, at least not without third party, nasty, hacks. Only data
> can be installed on flash cards
>
> False.

Agreed. Also email attachments can be taken from RAM, not only flash ram as
with my experience on PPCs.

>
> -9. Hey PalmOS, the mid-90s called, they want their UI and fonts back
>
> I agree that native Palm fonts aren't great, but they can be changed
> easily enough (FontSmoother again). As for an ugly UI... Am I the only
> one who hates that nauseating shade of turquoise they put on buttons?

I don't agree. I actually like the UI and fonts. Simple works well in my
opinion for a portable device.

> -10. Doesn't use memory as efficiently as PPC does.
>
> While the dynamic memory system on PocketPC might be better (I don't
> really know), Palm apps are about twice as memory-efficient...

PPC apps are huge compared to apps of the same genere on a Palm device.

> Looks like the writer of that wasn't exactly up-to-date...

I agree. The points you commented on were clearly written by a biased
individual.

> I rest my case.
>
> (please feel free to correct any mistakes I may have made)
>

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

In message <1121151475.96ec74f9c28cc8e962600aa6d0edda8b@teranews>,
Scooterflex <scootertrasher@yahoo.com> writes

>> -11. Better office format compliancy, MS Office is usually bundled with
>> the PDA
>>
>> All recent PalmOne PDAs come with Documents To Go, which is actually
>> just as good as MS Office (check at CNET.com)
>
>I find it to be better than syncing office docs on a PPC

Also, Docs To Go does Powerpoint. I don't think that the PPC offering
does, but correction welcome.
--
Ian Cummings

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Ian Cummings wrote:

> In message <1121151475.96ec74f9c28cc8e962600aa6d0edda8b@teranews>,
> Scooterflex <scootertrasher@yahoo.com> writes
>
>>> -11. Better office format compliancy, MS Office is usually bundled with
>>> the PDA
>>>
>>> All recent PalmOne PDAs come with Documents To Go, which is actually
>>> just as good as MS Office (check at CNET.com)
>>
>>I find it to be better than syncing office docs on a PPC
>
> Also, Docs To Go does Powerpoint. I don't think that the PPC offering
> does, but correction welcome.

PocketPC doesn't support Powerpoint out of the box, but there are several
third-party solutions.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

>>>>-11. Better office format compliancy, MS Office is usually bundled with
>>>>the PDA

Has anyone actually bothered to use these devices on Office documents?

HOnestly, IMO, they both are terrible at handling anything but
simple documents with little formatting of a few pages in length.
Anything more complex and these devices take forever to scroll, won't
show everything in their correct positions, don't maintain 100% of the
original formatting after being edited on the PDA, can't handle anything
embedded, won't work if there's complex charts and calculations, etc, etc.

Definitely don't believe what the various companies say how
'compatible' these PDAs are - they're not! and they simply won't
replace a notebook for medium to high complexity and length documents.

---

Best solutions thus far?

Any of the mini-notebooks out today.
eg. Sony U50/70 series, oqo, Libretto U100, etc.

These devices, starting at <1lbs, will run everything that runs
under Windows XP, provide 100% compatibility and speed of a decent
notebook, and require no silly conversion, waiting, etc PDAs often do
with a screen that has a high enough resolution to make editing longer
documents worthwhile.

---

And heck, don't even get me started on Adobe Acrobat files - you
can't even get a 100page+ document with graphics onto any of these PDAs
w/o destroying the original layout, crashing the Adobe converter, or
even turning that PDA into a snail flipping pages.

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 16:52:52 -0700, David Chien <chiendh@uci.edu>
wrote:

> And heck, don't even get me started on Adobe Acrobat files - you
>can't even get a 100page+ document with graphics onto any of these PDAs
>w/o destroying the original layout, crashing the Adobe converter, or
>even turning that PDA into a snail flipping pages.

Hmmm, I own a Sony Clie but also a Dell Axim X50v PPC.

The X50v has a VGA 640x480 screen. Using Adobe Reader for PPC, this
can quickly open a native PDF document of 700 pages (file size 8MB)
with full graphics, without any conversion required, displaying the
original layout. The 640x480 resolution makes the document a pleasure
to read. Minimal scrolling required, especially in landscape mode.
The 624 MHz makes flipping pages very fast.

You should try it out yourself, and I think you will be impressed. A
laptop is pretty big to carry in your pocket.

I agree however, that the built in Pocket Word and Pocket Excel on the
PPC leaves much to be desired. All complex formatting is not
displayed, and even worse, is stripped off the file on syncing,
without asking you first. However, third party solutions are great
and 'Textmaker for PPC' is pretty close to the desktop Word, as is
'PlanMaker' compared to Excel. Check out www.softmaker.com if
interested.

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Jason wrote:

> On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 16:52:52 -0700, David Chien <chiendh@uci.edu>
> wrote:
>
>> And heck, don't even get me started on Adobe Acrobat files - you
>>can't even get a 100page+ document with graphics onto any of these PDAs
>>w/o destroying the original layout, crashing the Adobe converter, or
>>even turning that PDA into a snail flipping pages.
>
> Hmmm, I own a Sony Clie but also a Dell Axim X50v PPC.
>
> The X50v has a VGA 640x480 screen. Using Adobe Reader for PPC, this
> can quickly open a native PDF document of 700 pages (file size 8MB)
> with full graphics, without any conversion required, displaying the
> original layout. The 640x480 resolution makes the document a pleasure
> to read. Minimal scrolling required, especially in landscape mode.
> The 624 MHz makes flipping pages very fast.
>
> You should try it out yourself, and I think you will be impressed. A
> laptop is pretty big to carry in your pocket.

Actually, a Sony U-series is not much larger than most PDAs.

> I agree however, that the built in Pocket Word and Pocket Excel on the
> PPC leaves much to be desired. All complex formatting is not
> displayed, and even worse, is stripped off the file on syncing,
> without asking you first. However, third party solutions are great
> and 'Textmaker for PPC' is pretty close to the desktop Word, as is
> 'PlanMaker' compared to Excel. Check out www.softmaker.com if
> interested.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

"J. Clarke" <jclarke.usenet@snet.net.invalid> wrote:

>Actually, a Sony U-series is not much larger than most PDAs.

Sony UX50 4.1" x 3.4" x 0.7" ; 6.2 oz

Palm
m125=4.82 x 3.1 x .87 5.3oz
Z72=4.60 x 2.95x .67 4.8oz
TE=4.5 x 3.1 x .50 4.6oz
TE2=4.5 x 3.1 x .59 4.7oz
T5=4.76 x 3.08 x .61 5.1oz
LD=4.76 x 2.87 x .74 6.8oz
PPC
ASUS A620BT 4.0" x 3.2" x 0.5"
Mio 168 GPS 4.4" x 2.7" x 0.6"
LOOX 410 4.4" x 2.8" x 0.6"
HP iPAQ h22xx 4.5" x 3.0" x 0.6"
HP iPAQ h41xx 4.5" x 2.8" x 0.5"
HP iPAQ hx47xx 4.5" x 2.8" x 0.5"
HP iPAQ rx3115 4.5" x 2.8" x 0.6"
HP iPAQ rz17xx 4.5" x 2.8" x 0.5"
Dell Axim X30 4.6" x 3.0" x 0.6"
Dell Axim X50 4.7" x 2.9" x 0.7"
HP iPAQ hx2750 4.7" x 3.0" x 0.6"
LOOX 720 4.8" x 2.8" x 0.6"

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:19:17 GMT, AaronJ <noemail@noemail.com> wrote:

>"J. Clarke" <jclarke.usenet@snet.net.invalid> wrote:
>
>>Actually, a Sony U-series is not much larger than most PDAs.
>
>Sony UX50 4.1" x 3.4" x 0.7" ; 6.2 oz

I think he was referring to the new Sony U50/70 series, not the old
Sony PEG UX50.

Sony U50/70 4.5" X 6.5" X 1"

http://jkontherun.blogs.com/jkonth [...] eview.html

It won't fit in *my* trouser pocket, but looks like a very nice new
gadget if the size fits you.

>Palm
>m125=4.82 x 3.1 x .87 5.3oz
>Z72=4.60 x 2.95x .67 4.8oz
>TE=4.5 x 3.1 x .50 4.6oz
>TE2=4.5 x 3.1 x .59 4.7oz
>T5=4.76 x 3.08 x .61 5.1oz
>LD=4.76 x 2.87 x .74 6.8oz
>PPC
>ASUS A620BT 4.0" x 3.2" x 0.5"
>Mio 168 GPS 4.4" x 2.7" x 0.6"
>LOOX 410 4.4" x 2.8" x 0.6"
>HP iPAQ h22xx 4.5" x 3.0" x 0.6"
>HP iPAQ h41xx 4.5" x 2.8" x 0.5"
>HP iPAQ hx47xx 4.5" x 2.8" x 0.5"
>HP iPAQ rx3115 4.5" x 2.8" x 0.6"
>HP iPAQ rz17xx 4.5" x 2.8" x 0.5"
>Dell Axim X30 4.6" x 3.0" x 0.6"
>Dell Axim X50 4.7" x 2.9" x 0.7"
>HP iPAQ hx2750 4.7" x 3.0" x 0.6"
>LOOX 720 4.8" x 2.8" x 0.6"

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

AaronJ wrote:

> "J. Clarke" <jclarke.usenet@snet.net.invalid> wrote:
>
>>Actually, a Sony U-series is not much larger than most PDAs.
>
> Sony UX50 4.1" x 3.4" x 0.7" ; 6.2 oz

Vaio U-series, not Clie UX-series. The US-market model is the

Sony VAIO U-750 6.6" x 4.25" x 1"; 19.2 oz

It's not a PDA, it's a 1.1 GHz Pentium-M tablet PC with a 20 gig disk and
runs XP.

> Palm
> m125=4.82 x 3.1 x .87 5.3oz
> Z72=4.60 x 2.95x .67 4.8oz
> TE=4.5 x 3.1 x .50 4.6oz
> TE2=4.5 x 3.1 x .59 4.7oz
> T5=4.76 x 3.08 x .61 5.1oz
> LD=4.76 x 2.87 x .74 6.8oz
> PPC
> ASUS A620BT 4.0" x 3.2" x 0.5"
> Mio 168 GPS 4.4" x 2.7" x 0.6"
> LOOX 410 4.4" x 2.8" x 0.6"
> HP iPAQ h22xx 4.5" x 3.0" x 0.6"
> HP iPAQ h41xx 4.5" x 2.8" x 0.5"
> HP iPAQ hx47xx 4.5" x 2.8" x 0.5"
> HP iPAQ rx3115 4.5" x 2.8" x 0.6"
> HP iPAQ rz17xx 4.5" x 2.8" x 0.5"
> Dell Axim X30 4.6" x 3.0" x 0.6"
> Dell Axim X50 4.7" x 2.9" x 0.7"
> HP iPAQ hx2750 4.7" x 3.0" x 0.6"
> LOOX 720 4.8" x 2.8" x 0.6"

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

"J. Clarke" <jclarke.usenet@snet.net.invalid> wrote:

>AaronJ wrote:

>>>Actually, a Sony U-series is not much larger than most PDAs.

>Vaio U-series, not Clie UX-series. The US-market model is the
>
>Sony VAIO U-750 6.6" x 4.25" x 1"; 19.2 oz

Ah. I was fooled when you said it's not much larger than most PDAs. That thing
makes even the brick sized LD look petite...