Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,uk.comp.sys.palmtops,news.software.readers (More info?)

Our sales are suffering because of the ubiquitous GUI standards of the
modern desktop where resources (filespace/RAM and CPU/speed) are essentially
infinite.
Despite our confidence that we are giving users what they need, there is a
steady stream of complaints (and, worse yet, a distinct lack of sales)
because we are not giving them what they think they want.

Is it possible to convince potential users/customers that a different,
simpler (even "plain" ) UI is not merely tolerable but is actually
domonstrably "better" when it comes to limited, imbedded (or semi-inbedded)
hardware/OS environments such as palmtop computers? Or is the only hope of
appeasing the complainers (and generating sales) to make the app more
cubmersome and bloated so as to better "fit in" with the common user (i.e.
desktop) experience? We know what the "right" thing to do is but we have a
business to run and I have to consider the bottom line and right now our "if
you build it (right) they (buyers) will come" strategy is not working.

The essential question is, how important is it for a GOOD piece of
software to make a good first impression? And, if it is as important as we
are beginning to realize it is, is it justifiable to sacrifice limited
resources and useability (RAM, speed and elegant simplicity) to give the
user what he is expecting to see even though it is merely a ruse to secure
his comfort level (towards a sale)? This is an age-old delima that has
plagued business from aracades (if I cannot get the player to insert the
first quarter, it doesn't matter
how good my game is; the player will never give it a chance to find out) to
restaurants (just make the food on the menu look great even if what is
served is nothing like it). It is as much a moral delima it is a marketing
decision because there is always a cost.

That is the broad question and as a specific example, I put forth our
just-released version 3.0 of New Yanoff (NY) 3.0
(http://www.PalmYanoff.com). We have gotten several surprisingly harsh
criticisms lately with which I cannot agree. However, I am beginning to
question whether I am correct in my disagreement (could the complainers
really be right?) and so I am beginning this open discussion on UI for Palm
in general, and for Usenet newsreader clients on Palm in particular.

We have had a very difficult time getting any specific criticism
(constructive or otherwise) about NY (with the exception of comments in
regards to PocketPurchase which have been resolved, thankfully). Most of
the feedback that we have seen really doesn't make much sense to looking at
it as a PALM
USER. As a PALM USER even when considering a hypothetically "near-perfect"
Palm Usenet newsreader, what do you consider essential (must-have) or,
alternatively, must-avoid functionality/features?

Here is an amalgomation of some recent conversations we have had to seed
this discussion:

> IMHO a newsreader that cannot group messages by thread is useless­.

I agree that's why the first feature I added to New Yanoff was full
threading (GPL had a pathetic threading algorithm)!

GPL Yanoff barely threaded at all (only father-son) but NY now threads very,
very well (and the PC-side software when using the Java Conduit threads
perfectly)!
Have you tried 3.0?

> (no thread trees)

Thread trees seem to have so little practical utility as to be virtually
useless; certainly of so little use so as not to bother trying to make sense
of them on such a small screen as exists for Palm devices. Please tell me
how you use thread trees in actual practice and I am relatively certain that
NY currently has a way to do achieve the same result (or, if not, it could
be modified to do so without resorting to thread trees).

> The icon is still monochrome (the only monochrome icon
> out of over 200 applications I have installed).
> I spent much money to have a better display and
> today in 2005 a commercial product with a b/w,low-res icon...

I could add a color icon but won't until I add color features; to do
otherwise would be misleading. We also have a commitment to remain
backwards compatible with older (i.e. low-res, grayscale devices) but that
can be done while adding color features. For a text-based newsreader the
same argument we used in regards to thread trees applies: what use of color
can ONLY be done with color? The only one I can think of is
quote-level-coloring. This is actually a valid answer but the reality is
not so simple as it might seem due to gross limitations/oversight in the
Palm OS itself. We have looked at adding this feature and, believe it or
not, multi-colored text fields require a HUGE investment of time and code
(all the built in text functions have to be abandoned as there is no
built-in support/API for multi-colored text fields)! But, other than this,
where is color crucial to a specific useful feature? We would love some
good ideas for how color should/might be used in a Palm OS newsreader (so
long as it does NOT require multi-colored text in a single text field) to
give us the justification we need to move to a color icon!

> ... and minimalist interface/gra­phics

OK, this is something I have heard quite a bit from many people who are used
to other programs. Screen space is very scarce and the more buttons and
icons exist, the less room there will be for what is *really* important:
TEXT!
New Yanoff is *not* a clone of Outlook Express (or any other newsreader).
GPL Yanoff and New Yanoff were designed and built from the beginning with
the
Palm HW and its inherent limitations in mind. They were DESIGNED to exploit
the reality of PALM!
NY does not pretend to be OE-on-Palm because OE's design would be WAY too
cluttered, confusing and inappropriate. One of the reasons our registered
users love NY is *BECAUSE* it works so well for their device and does not
try to cram a desktop design onto a minimalist OS/machine! And yet, as
happy as our current user base is, I sense we are winning the battle but
losing the war.

> the buttons are using "Dude Speak" (yes, I can see to save space)
> but buttons with abbreviations instead of icons is not a good idea.

Almost all of the buttons are user-definable and SO ARE THEIR TEXT LABELS!
Just what kind of icon can represent functions such as:
"Delete all Unlocked Articles from cursor on up, move to Next Newsgroup and
goto 1st unread article"?
And how would that icon differ from the sister function:
"Delete all Read Articles, move to Next Newsgroup and goto top article"?
You see, in actual fact, it is not as simple as it might seem and there are
many justifications for doing it the way we have in our implementation.

But even if that weren't so, why should we waste the memory (yes, on PDAs,
RAM is very scarce) adding bitmaps especially when they wouldn't be
intuitive? Remember, this is an app DESIGNED for the limited environment of
Palm OS (where memory can be VERY tight). The last thing people will use or
appreciate is a 1Gb PRC! We are already receiving complaints that the PRC
is "too large"...

> many of the other menu options and buttons
> don't seem organized well at all.

This is just the kind of useless comment that drives designers crazy!
The words "many", "other", "seem" are worthless because they are too vague!
PLEASE: If you don't like how something has been done, be specific!
Say something like, "Menu Y's option 3 and Menu X's option 2 should be under
a new Menu called "Z" because they are related in such-and-such a manner."
That is something we can consider accomodating!

> If you need inspiration, you can take a look to TuNews

I have seen it and I strongly disapprove. It is (along with most portable
newsreaders, especially the PPC ones) trying to be exactly what NY is trying
avoid: OutlookExpressCrammedOntoPalmOS.
The goal of a newsreader should be convenient access to (and manipulation
of) news threads.
With NY we have attempted to maximize that goal TAKING FULL CONSIDERATION of
the limited environment that exists on the Palm OS/hardware.

> But it is much more promising than NY, in my opinion.

Besides icons (totally disagree), thread-trees (can agree in principle but
in practice this does not seem to be a real issue) and color (I agree on
color and and am working on it), what does TuNews (or any other portable
Usenet client) do better than NY? Those of you who "don't like" NY, have
you actually spent time getting to know NY or did you just take a peek at it
and say to yourself, "doesn't look like OE so it must not be any good"? I
think if you give NY a sincere try, you will find that it does nearly
everything you really want a newsreader to do and it does so very well (even
though it may do it in a different fashion than how you may be accostomed).
We are begging here for elaboration. Please, give NY a fresh try and give
us specific feedback. We are not afraid of competition so better yet, try
both and then let us know what you think. Try to set aside your prejudices
and OE-bias and evaluate the apps on how well they actually achieve the goal
of accessing text in a reliable, pleasant and efficient mannter. Don't
forget to sample the advanced features such as killfiles and SPAM avoidance
(which OE and TuNews do not have) which greatly contribute to a sastifactory
user experience.

> I hope this dont offend you

Be assured, it does not; after all, we are BEGGING for critical/constructive
feedback!

> I know that a program like Yano­ff requires many,
> many months of hard work,

That really isn't a valid consideration.
If a piece of software is junk, it is junk, regardless of how long the junk
took to create, right?
And if NY is junk, we really do want (need) to know.

> but today PalmOS PDA are powerful, and we are accustomed to
> ­very complex programs,with many advanced funtions, graphics etc.

So please elaborate as to what NY should have that it does not.
You can't just say, "it needs to exploit my color screen" and not explain
how! The prepodnerance of color devices does not, in itself, provide a
justification the expense of adding color to an app (although perhaps, from
a purely marketing standpoint it does). Even more importantly, WHY should
NY have this thing that you feel it needs; how would you use this thing and
why is it so important? What is it you desire to do now that cannot
currently be done just as well? The "how" and "why" will help us to decide
if your desire has genuine
validity.

> NY looks like a very old and amateurish program when
> it is compared to best P­almOS software;

The same could be said of any newsreader on any platform when compared to
the flashiest software (such as games) on that same platform.
NY is for TEXT-based Usenet; how flashy can text be?
How flashy is your favorite desktop newsreader?

When was the last time OE was updated?
How does OE compare to IE or Word or Doom3?
Seriously, have you tried it to see how it handles text articles?
Was your user experience seriously lacking somehow?
God willing, NY will *never* be OE and that is a GOOD thing!

> the only chance of success for NY is the complete lack of alternatives

Ouch; that one hurt! :>

> and I hope you will make a g­ood newsreader in the future

And I hope everyone will continue this discussion until
we can come to some points of agreement so we can
make NY more of what everyone would like to use!

P.S. Before you non-English speakers flood us please know that we are
painfully aware that we do not have satisfactory multi-language support and
are also working on this.

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,uk.comp.sys.palmtops,news.software.readers (More info?)

In article <3674g4F4sbor7U1@individual.net>, Gregg Woodcock wrote:
> built-in support/API for multi-colored text fields)! But, other than this,
> where is color crucial to a specific useful feature? We would love some
> good ideas for how color should/might be used in a Palm OS newsreader (so
> long as it does NOT require multi-colored text in a single text field) to
> give us the justification we need to move to a color icon!

Article scoring would be a good use of colour.

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,uk.comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

In article <3674g4F4sbor7U1@individual.net>, "Gregg Woodcock"
<usenet@SonLightSoftware.com> wrote:

> Is it possible to convince potential users/customers that a different,
> simpler (even "plain" ) UI is not merely tolerable but is actually
> domonstrably "better" when it comes to limited, imbedded (or semi-inbedded)
> hardware/OS environments such as palmtop computers? Or is the only hope of
> appeasing the complainers (and generating sales) to make the app more
> cubmersome and bloated so as to better "fit in" with the common user (i.e.
> desktop) experience? We know what the "right" thing to do is but we have a
> business to run and I have to consider the bottom line and right now our "if
> you build it (right) they (buyers) will come" strategy is not working.

In my marketing terms, the right thing to do is to provide the customer
with something that improves his "experience." Experience, in this case,
means not only the use of your product, but the benefits from it as well,
that is, it helps the customer do his work more
easily/quickly/cheaply/happily perhaps in ways he never even considered.

So, in that context, the user's perception of your product does matter
although it would be worthwhile to find out if the UI is what's holding
your customers back or if there's something else more streamlined (and
closer to what your company thinks is "right" ) that would improve sales --
new functionality, tweaks to the existing UI without going whole-hog
graphic, performance improvements, etc.

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,uk.comp.sys.palmtops,news.software.readers (More info?)

In article <3674g4F4sbor7U1@individual.net>, usenet@SonLightSoftware.com
says...
> what does TuNews (or any other portable Usenet client) do better than NY?
>

Thanks for pointing out Palm TuNews, I must have missed it's release.
Love it's tree threading and wonderfull use of color. The screen-shot
shows an 'Arthur Hagen' thread highlighted, coincidence?
<http://tinyurl.com/4zwo7> *Art, are you getting royalties for using
your name in their ads?

--
Hope this helps.
Jim Anderson
( 8(|) To email me just pull my_finger

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,uk.comp.sys.palmtops,news.software.readers (More info?)

On 2005-01-31 08:16:43 -0800, "Gregg Woodcock"
<usenet@SonLightSoftware.com> said:
>> The icon is still monochrome (the only monochrome icon
>> out of over 200 applications I have installed).
>> I spent much money to have a better display and
>> today in 2005 a commercial product with a b/w,low-res icon...

I have to agree there. It looks really silly to have 1 monochrome app
icon in a sea of color icons. Not to mention if I see a b/w icon, I
presume that the app is *old* (ie, pre-dates color icons).

>
>> ... and minimalist interface/gra­phics

I took a look at the screen shots at the product web page, and I'd have
to agree.

While it *is* a text app, you can still make use of some color. For
example, you could provide a "ledger view" where you alternate between
white and blue for the list view.

>
>> the buttons are using "Dude Speak" (yes, I can see to save space)
>> but buttons with abbreviations instead of icons is not a good idea.

If the idea is to "keep things simple", then having a button called
"v^" doesn't make sense at all. Is this a newsreader for people that
previously used tin via dialup? You shouldn't need to be a command line
geek to use a newsreader.

>> NY looks like a very old and amateurish program when
>> it is compared to best P­almOS software;
>
> The same could be said of any newsreader on any platform when compared to
> the flashiest software (such as games) on that same platform.
> NY is for TEXT-based Usenet; how flashy can text be?
> How flashy is your favorite desktop newsreader?

For a good example, compare an older Newsreader (such as Thoth) with a
modern "flashy" one such as Unison (these are on Mac). One of them has
the "text feel", the other feels more like a modern app - icon bars,
drawers that hold favorites, etc. They both deal with text, but one
feels more like a modern app, the other feels more like a text app.

Brian

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,uk.comp.sys.palmtops,news.software.readers (More info?)

On 2005-01-31 08:16:43 -0800, "Gregg Woodcock"
<usenet@SonLightSoftware.com> said:

> This is an age-old delima that has
> plagued business from aracades (if I cannot get the player to insert the
> first quarter, it doesn't matter
> how good my game is; the player will never give it a chance to find out) to
> restaurants (just make the food on the menu look great even if what is
> served is nothing like it). It is as much a moral delima it is a marketing
> decision because there is always a cost.

Why not strike a balance? When you do a new release, make sure to
include a balance of new (technical) features and at least one or two
"features" that provide "sizzle". That way the sizzle/eye-candy gets
you press coverage, downloads, etc, and the technical features endear
you to those that appreciate depth.

Keeping an app 100% b/w just because it will save a few bytes/CPU
cycles may be admirable from a "purist" view, but if the marketplace
had determined b/w was desirable, we'd still be clamoring for Palm Vs
(a wonderful machine in its day, but there is a reason nobody sells a
b/w business class handheld).

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,uk.comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 18:12:46 GMT, Guy Bannis wrote:

> In article <3674g4F4sbor7U1@individual.net>, "Gregg Woodcock"
> <usenet@SonLightSoftware.com> wrote:
>
>> Is it possible to convince potential users/customers that a different,
>> simpler (even "plain" ) UI is not merely tolerable but is actually
>> domonstrably "better" when it comes to limited, imbedded (or semi-inbedded)
>> hardware/OS environments such as palmtop computers? Or is the only hope of
>> appeasing the complainers (and generating sales) to make the app more
>> cubmersome and bloated so as to better "fit in" with the common user (i.e.
>> desktop) experience? We know what the "right" thing to do is but we have a
>> business to run and I have to consider the bottom line and right now our "if
>> you build it (right) they (buyers) will come" strategy is not working.
>
> In my marketing terms, the right thing to do is to provide the customer
> with something that improves his "experience." Experience, in this case,
> means not only the use of your product, but the benefits from it as well,
> that is, it helps the customer do his work more
> easily/quickly/cheaply/happily perhaps in ways he never even considered.
>
> So, in that context, the user's perception of your product does matter
> although it would be worthwhile to find out if the UI is what's holding
> your customers back or if there's something else more streamlined (and
> closer to what your company thinks is "right" ) that would improve sales --
> new functionality, tweaks to the existing UI without going whole-hog
> graphic, performance improvements, etc.

Along the lines for "something else", how about the thought that NNTP
access on Palm Handhelds doesn't have a large market to begin with?

That is, I think it's a neat idea. And TuNews doesn't appear from the
screenshot to really have a better interface than Yanoff. And I could
probably use either of them, if I wanted to access newsgroups on my
Palm.

But I don't want to.

I'm a recovering usenet junkie who's cut his subscribed groups
drastically this year. The groups I subscribe to, like this one, are
not necessarily things in which I read every post or feel like I might
miss something if I'm away from the computer for a few days.

How many other Usenet posters are in the same situation? I doubt that
they're the minority.

I agree with the comment that the button labels are a bit of a
drawback. But even fixing that isn't going to make me suddenly feel
the need for Yanoff.

--
Derek

The nice thing about losing one's marbles is that you only have to
pick up the ones you want.

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,uk.comp.sys.palmtops,news.software.readers (More info?)

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 12:01:04 -0800, Brian Hall wrote:

> On 2005-01-31 08:16:43 -0800, "Gregg Woodcock"
> <usenet@SonLightSoftware.com> said:
>
>> This is an age-old delima that has
>> plagued business from aracades (if I cannot get the player to insert the
>> first quarter, it doesn't matter
>> how good my game is; the player will never give it a chance to find out) to
>> restaurants (just make the food on the menu look great even if what is
>> served is nothing like it). It is as much a moral delima it is a marketing
>> decision because there is always a cost.
>
> Why not strike a balance? When you do a new release, make sure to
> include a balance of new (technical) features and at least one or two
> "features" that provide "sizzle". That way the sizzle/eye-candy gets
> you press coverage, downloads, etc, and the technical features endear
> you to those that appreciate depth.
>
> Keeping an app 100% b/w just because it will save a few bytes/CPU
> cycles may be admirable from a "purist" view, but if the marketplace
> had determined b/w was desirable, we'd still be clamoring for Palm Vs
> (a wonderful machine in its day, but there is a reason nobody sells a
> b/w business class handheld).

Or, better yet, take a lesson from Microsoft. "It's not a drawback,
it's a feature." That is, turn the criticisms into assets.

It's not that it doesn't have color feature, it's that it's lean and
quick. It's not that the buttons have weird button labels, it's that
one can customize the labels.

Just a thought.
--
Derek

There is no greater joy than soaring high on the wings of your dreams,
except maybe the joy of watching a dreamer who has nowhere to land but
in the ocean of reality.

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,uk.comp.sys.palmtops,news.software.readers (More info?)

"Derek" <news@gwinn.us> wrote in message news:7tbtq1kk9ssb$.dlg@gwinn.us...
> On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 12:01:04 -0800, Brian Hall wrote:
>
> Or, better yet, take a lesson from Microsoft. "It's not a drawback,
> it's a feature." That is, turn the criticisms into assets.
>
> It's not that it doesn't have color feature, it's that it's lean and
> quick. It's not that the buttons have weird button labels, it's that
> one can customize the labels.

This ("it is actually better this way" ) is actually how we have been
responding since the beginning but this response as often as not has users
come back saying, "then I guess I just won't use your product" which
(besides being a non-sequitur) is unacceptable!

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,uk.comp.sys.palmtops,news.software.readers (More info?)

<Brian Hall> wrote in message
news:2005013112010475249%@news.supernews.net...
> On 2005-01-31 08:16:43 -0800, "Gregg Woodcock"
> <usenet@SonLightSoftware.com> said:
>
> Why not strike a balance? When you do a new release, make sure to
> include a balance of new (technical) features and at least one or two
> "features" that provide "sizzle". That way the sizzle/eye-candy gets
> you press coverage, downloads, etc, and the technical features endear
> you to those that appreciate depth.

This is pretty much where we are. But...

> Keeping an app 100% b/w just because it will save a few bytes/CPU
> cycles may be admirable from a "purist" view, but if the marketplace
> had determined b/w was desirable, we'd still be clamoring for Palm Vs
> (a wonderful machine in its day, but there is a reason nobody sells a
> b/w business class handheld).

It is not just user/HW cycles but also design cycles. The big feature for
4.0 was to have been SSL which obviously will have much more serious benefit
for everyone but now it looks like we are going to "waste" our time
colorizing with mostly-redundant fluff because that (hopefully) will
generate greater eye-appeal and sales. It would seem it is better to be
pretty than it is to be smart!

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,uk.comp.sys.palmtops,news.software.readers (More info?)

"Jim Anderson" <fro2750@frontiernet.my_finger.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1c6844162ec9313f9896ae@news.frontiernet.net...
> In article <3674g4F4sbor7U1@individual.net>, usenet@SonLightSoftware.com
>
> Thanks for pointing out Palm TuNews, I must have missed it's release.

It is not truly released. It is in 0.99 beta and has been so forever.
It has every appearance of being dead (check the Italian NGs they as much as
say so and I believe the designer is Italian).
In any case, it does have a greatly contrasting UI to Yanoff which is why I
mentioned it.

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,uk.comp.sys.palmtops,news.software.readers (More info?)

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:45:07 -0600, Gregg Woodcock wrote:

> "Derek" <news@gwinn.us> wrote in message news:7tbtq1kk9ssb$.dlg@gwinn.us...
>> On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 12:01:04 -0800, Brian Hall wrote:
>>
>> Or, better yet, take a lesson from Microsoft. "It's not a drawback,
>> it's a feature." That is, turn the criticisms into assets.
>>
>> It's not that it doesn't have color feature, it's that it's lean and
>> quick. It's not that the buttons have weird button labels, it's that
>> one can customize the labels.
>
> This ("it is actually better this way" ) is actually how we have been
> responding since the beginning but this response as often as not has users
> come back saying, "then I guess I just won't use your product" which
> (besides being a non-sequitur) is unacceptable!

I'm sorry. The point I didn't make clear was that this shouldn't be a
response. This should be up-front, on the web site. It shouldn't be
something people come to you and ask about.

For example, you've got a screen shot of Yanoff on the front page. The
first thing I notice is that I have absolutely no idea what 3 of the
buttons do. One of the things PalmOS is known for is ease of use. The
screen shot of Yanoff doesn't really look easy to use.

Your site tells me what Yanoff is, but it doesn't prove to me that the
way it is is a good thing, if that makes sense. I mean, you've got 41
items listed in your FAQ, and not all of them are questions. That's
not an FAQ. That's a manual.

If your only market for selling something is online, you've got to
convince people through your site that your product is worth it. As it
is, it just looks like it'd be a hassle to use and not worth the
effort.

I guess that's a criticism of the web site more than of the software.
--
Derek

While good fortune often eludes you, misfortune never misses.