I see complete systems (w/o monitor) being offered with
these cpu's and I haven't found any reviews of them -
does anyone have any experience or a pointer to a webpage?
They are really low-priced, but I wonder if they are junk?
Littleberry

Via C3 CPUs are geared for low power and low heat meaning they work well in small form factor PCs.

The fastest model is 1ghz but doesn't perform like a 1ghz athlon or pentium. In many applications it is quite a bit slower.

So in short, this is a workstation chip, not a gaming/code crunching chip.

Here's tom's review of the C3:
http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/20020605/index.html

You can find more info about what people are doing with the C3 here:
http://www.mini-itx.com

Thankyou, TknD. I read those webpages and I am impressed,
especially with the low power/low noise aspect, while still
being a pretty good processor for things like general
editing and websurfing. I am only wondering about the power
supply noise - I asked tranguilPC about that, but, until
they reply, do you have any experience with a noiseless
power supply? That would seal the deal for me.
Thanks again, Littleberry

A VIA C3 1000 has nearly as much performance as a K6-III 450. It could rock your world! But seriously, a low voltage Celeron would be a better choice. Heck, I even ran a Celeron 1200 Tualatin at 800MHz, undervolted to 1.30v on a Slot-T adapter, using a passive cooler. It still had twice the performance of a C3-1000, of course.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>

People commonly use laptop power supplies to run their C3 systems. These PSUs only offer 55W to 90W of power and need the external ac adapter you commonly see with laptops. The other part of the PSU is a simple circuit board that connects to the ATX power connector and has a connection for the ac adapter. Fan count: zero.

Here's some links:

Circuit board thing:
http://www.idot.com/TheStore/Deskt [...] atus=green

AC adapter (picture):
http://www.idot.com/Images/Products/Case/807_small.jpg

The only catch is that you're limited on how much power you have available. You need the epia board with the C3 soldered on the board and offers a complete low power package with onboard video/sound/lan tuned specifically for the C3. You also have to watch what hard drive and cdrom you use. People typically use laptop drives for this purpose. If you can get your hands on a good enough PSU however, you might be able to dodge the bullet and use standard components.

As for truly silent systems, that is only possible with the VIA Epia ME6000 (667Mhz) or Epia 500 (533Mhz). Both boards come with passively cooled CPUs. Epias faster than that will come with faster C3 chips that have a small fan on the heat sink. People however have modded the Epia 800 to be passively cooled using a larger heat sink. Combine it with a laptop PSU and you got yourself a dead silent computer (except for hard drive).

The pre-packaged system like the Tranquil PC bypass the standard heat sink/fan and integrate the heatsink as part of the casing. So the fins you see on the side of the case is technically the heatsink as well.


I myself have a C3, namely the Epia ME6000 platform with 512MB of RAM. The size of the board is incredibly small and the chip is passively cooled. I haven't spent the time in gathering the right components to run on a laptop psu so it is currently running off a standard ATX psu. But since the board draws so little power the psu fan barely generates noise since the PSU is far from reaching full load. The system is currently acting as a gateway router and soon to be server for my appartment. I've installed winXP pro on the system and it runs very well. When using the system for everyday tasks such as browsing the net I rarely feel the slow processor at work. I can't say the same for my duron 650Mhz (with 256MB of RAM) system at home which has win2k loaded on it but you could argue that the duron system doesn't have as much ram to work with.

The processor is definitely not for everyone; it targets a specific set of users and is very popular among the users that want to build custom embedded systems for themselves.

If you want more information or a community the interact with, the sudhian forum is very popular for discussing small form factor pcs including the C3:

http://forums.sudhian.com

Mini-itx / Via board:
http://forums.sudhian.com/categori [...] &forumid=1

Also, I believe THG reviewed the first version of the C3 1Ghz chip which is a bit slower than the latest C3 1Ghz core (nehemiah) which has a number of improvements.

Yeah you could do the celeron thing if you want...but you'd have to get your hands on the right parts and it wouldn't be compact.

Also, the celeron will eat up more power than the C3. In fact you could probably run an entire epia 1ghz system on the power used by just the celeron chip.

But if power and space isn't an issue, then there are all kinds of things you can do to make a fast and silent system.

Unfortunately for people like me who live in california, electricity isn't so cheap so power can be an issue.

Personally, I'm just impressed with how compact and low power these things are.

I'm not impressed at all! I mean, the Celeron wouldn't produce THAT much more heat at 1.30v. In fact, if you think about the performance level, the VIA processor is terribly inefficient. My P4 is probably more efficient. I say this because, a video it takes me 2 hours to encode would probably take the VIA platform around 8. Now that means I'd have to have the entire system up for 4x as long, since I do most of this while I'm sleeping, and set the computer to shut off when finished!

A far better platform would be a Pentium M or a ULV PIII-M. Yes, SOME company could put on on a desktop board. When you think about it, the low performance and low power consumption of the C3 puts it in the same market as a Transmeta Crusoe, which is a laptop CPU (also available on a desktop developers platform).

If you really want to economize I suggest a Pentium 233MMX.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>

If you want more power, you can buy <A HREF="http://www.commell.com.tw/Product/SBC/LV-670.HTM" target="_new">Mini-FlexATX</A> P4 motherboards. These are 17cm x 17cm, just like Via's own Mini-ITX platform. However if you are also into silence and low power consumption, Mini-ITX is the only way to go, for now. I do expect Pentium M processors to eventually make it into Mini-FlexATX desktop mobos, but as of yet, I have only seen them in embedded and micro-ATX versions. If all you need is something to surf and edit with, I see no reason why a Via C3 would not suit you. There is already an established market for these, with lots of <A HREF="http://www.mini-itx.com/reviews/hush/" target="_new">sexy</A> <A HREF="http://www.mini-itx.com/reviews/cubit/" target="_new">enclosures</A> available. And after all, not all solutions involve a bigger hammer.

<font color=white><b>_________________________________________________</font color=white></b>
Armadillo<font color=orange>[</font color=orange><font color=green>TcC</font color=green><font color=orange>]</font color=orange> at Lanwar and MML

Micro ATX is better in almost every way than Mini-ITX. The only difference between the 2 is that Micro ATX is around 1.5 inces longer, to support 2 added PCI slots. There is NO additional noise nor heat from those two slots unless...you put cards in them. And now I'm supposing you'll argue "but since those 2 slots aren't on the ITX board, you wouldn't have that problem". That's like saying a Eunoch is better than a Man because he can't get blueballs.

You can get Micro ATX cases that resemble a briefcase or a stereo. Mini-ITX only shortens the case by that 1.5 inches. Of course the Micro ATX boards won't fit in a Cube, but cubes are
1) Taller than Micro ATX desktops, making them a bad solution for home theater (less verticle rack space, with the rack at a fixed width).
2) Wider than a Micro ATX thin tower, taking up more space on a desktop (desk area is best measured in verticle surface area).

Of course a Mini-ITX board can be placed in a Micro ATX case, or a tower could be made shorter (which wouldn't help space considerations), or a desktop narrower (same storry), so Mini-ITX has no point in the home nor office. No advantages, just fewer slots.

So a review of what you said:

PCI slots don't make noise, nor do they draw power if they are not being used, so Mini-ITX has no advantages over Micro ATX in either silence or power consumption. An embedded Micro board be better in nearly every respect than an embedded Mini board.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>

LOL my platform can beat up your platform!! Crashman is always good for a smile... I liked the way you implied that I assumed PCI slots make noise. Very classy. In fact, I had not even given a single thought to the PCI slots. You simply missed some key points. The Mini-ITX specification <i>requires</i> that the board be run off no more than 100 watts. Most of the time you can get away with using an <A HREF="http://www.mini-itx.com/store/default.asp?c=9#p67" target="_new">external PSU</A> (similar to a laptop's) with zero moving parts (read: zero noise). With the PSU no longer part of the case, guess what? Smaller case. And the reason you can use such a low-powered PSU is due to the low voltage of the VIA Eden and C3 CPUs, which [drum roll] can be cooled without the aid of a fan.

The cube was just one example of a sexy enclosure for the mini-ITX. You apparently completely ignored my other link, so here it is <A HREF="http://www.mini-itx.com/store/hush.asp" target="_new">again</A>. Note the complete absence of fans and an internal PSU. I challenge you to find a Micro-ATX sytem as small and as quiet -- and as sexy, for that matter -- as this. With the faux cooling fins along the side, a black one would look right at home next to my Adcom amp... *drool*

<font color=white><b>_________________________________________________</font color=white></b>
Armadillo<font color=orange>[</font color=orange><font color=green>TcC</font color=green><font color=orange>]</font color=orange> at Lanwar and MML

They do make passivly cooled ATX PSU's that can deliver more than 300 watts...so i am sure they make low output/form factor PSU's that would not require you sticking to a very low output laptop psu...

Next...have you though of looking at mobile Athlon xp cpu's...they sell on new egg...not sure on the specs but i would immagine they have low power/heat output...i dunno about low form factor mobos for them...they are socket A though...

Worse comes to worse...call me up i have an amd 386dx-40 and a video 7 graphics card...all total i bet they draw about 70 watts...great for dos 5.2

So easy to fry yet tastes so good...
Silicon: The other, other, other white meat

But you stated the main reason for not choosing an imbedded Pentium-M desktop solution was because they were only available in Micro ATX. Since the power requirement for such a CPU is similarly small, the only thing I see the ITX offering is a narrower dektop, or a shorter tower. And that's only 1.5-2 inches. Given that most stereo racks are around 19 inches wide (to hold standard 16.5-18.5 inch wide components), narrowing a case (traditional mATX desktop/full sized power supply) from 16 to 14 inches offers no advantage within that rack.

I'm sure you've seen the Coolermaster cases that are the same size as many home theater head units. Yes, they are taller than the one you showed, but still have similar looks that are perfect with a home theater.

A distict disadvantage of the style case you showed me is that nearly every part has to be mounted externally. I'm speaking of any TV-Tuner you may use, any sound upgrades you might consider, and of course you can't upgrade video externally. So the Coolermaster case is a more adequate solution.

You see, simply playing your DiVX movies is not enough to qualify it as a home theater center. Look at the X-Box, it's better in most ways than that thing you showed me. It plays DVD's AND games. Wow! Now, if you add a TiVO unit, WebTV, and a home stereo system, you have...a PC! But now you have a bunch of components!

So what we really need is a Micro ATX case with passive cooling for both the CPU and power supply. And a low power CPU with lots of performance. Such as an embedded Pentium-M based Micro ATX system, with cooling fins on one side of the case for a heatpipe, and on the other side of the case for a stereo amplifier.

Or better yet just use that Coolermaster case, an external stereo amp, a nice Micro ATX board, etc, all good PC parts, and use large low speed fans. Once the PC drops below about 30db you won't hear it from TV viewing distance anyway. And these are parts already on the market.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>

Crashman, you are missing the point. Mini-ITX is popular because it is the smallest, quietest system available today. Sure, it may not be smallest by a wide margin, but nevertheless, it is. It combines two of the latest crazes -- small and silent -- and combines them all into one package. You could certainly build a small Micro-ATX system, and make it relatively silent. You may in fact be able to build one with no fans at all, however I suspect there would be some risk to this, as I have not seen it done yet. Even if you have to use low-speed fans, it would still not be AS small and AS quiet as a mini-ITX system. The power of the system in this case is <i>irrelevant</i>. People are not building these to be workhorses, or even HTPC's for that matter. They are building them because they are small, quiet, and cheap. If you view some of the projects people are making with the mini-ITX board, it becomes obvious that the focus of these systems is not exactly processing power, and being able to externally mount the PSU is a distinct advantage. Also in some cases, the projects would not have been able to be completed if the Mini-ITX board were larger by just fractions of an inch, so a Micro-ATX board would not work. Here are some of my favorites:

<A HREF="http://www.mini-itx.com/projects/c64/" target="_new">http://www.mini-itx.com/projects/c64/</A>

<A HREF="http://www.mini-itx.com/projects/sx64/" target="_new">http://www.mini-itx.com/projects/sx64/</A>

<A HREF="http://www.mini-itx.com/projects/pictureframepc/page2.asp" target="_new">http://www.mini-itx.com/projects/pictureframepc/page2.asp</A> <--- very cool!

<A HREF="http://www.mini-itx.com/projects/guitarworkstation/" target="_new">http://www.mini-itx.com/projects/guitarworkstation/</A>

And finally:
<A HREF="http://www.mini-itx.com/projects/psu-pc/" target="_new">http://www.mini-itx.com/projects/psu-pc/</A> An entire, functioning PC, built inside a standard ATX PSU! Awesome. Lets see you do THAT with a Micro-ATX board!

<font color=white><b>_________________________________________________</font color=white></b>
Armadillo<font color=orange>[</font color=orange><font color=green>TcC</font color=green><font color=orange>]</font color=orange> at Lanwar and MML

Quietest? Nothing as quiet? You can put that crappy VIA CPU on a Micro ATX board, they make them in Socket 370 format. And removing two slots does NOT make it quieter, for more information <A HREF="http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/you.html" target="_new">CLICK HERE</A>

So it's not about silence at all, just size. Nont of those special projects could make use of the expansion slot at all, they would have been better off to use laptop internals and at least gotten some PCMCIA slots. But if you still want to argue that Mini ITX makes it quieter, <A HREF="http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/you.html" target="_new">Read This</A>

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>