Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

Hi,

I've recently bought a new Michell Gyro SE with Origin Live Silver
tonearm and Reson Aciore cartridge. I have a problem with aligning the
cartridge. I've used both the protractor that came with the Hi Fi News
Test LP and the Turntable Basics (www.turntablebasics.com) protractor.

Both protractors imply that for correct alignment there should be
cartridge underhang and not overhang. This does not seem right to me.
I've taken some photos to show you:

http://www.patre.com/michell


I'm pretty certain I've used both protractors correctly. Also can
someone please tell me what order I should make the adjustments to my
turntable ie tracking force, VTA adjustment etc.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Many thanks,

Rupesh Patre

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

rupesh@patre.com wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I've recently bought a new Michell Gyro SE with Origin Live Silver
> tonearm and Reson Aciore cartridge. I have a problem with aligning
the
> cartridge. I've used both the protractor that came with the Hi Fi
News
> Test LP and the Turntable Basics (www.turntablebasics.com)
protractor.
>
> Both protractors imply that for correct alignment there should be
> cartridge underhang and not overhang. This does not seem right to me.
> I've taken some photos to show you:
>
> http://www.patre.com/michell


I'm not sure what exactly you mean by underhang. But if your cartridge
is lining up as prescribed by both protractors you are probably doing
just fine.




>
>
> I'm pretty certain I've used both protractors correctly. Also can
> someone please tell me what order I should make the adjustments to my
> turntable ie tracking force, VTA adjustment etc.



Adjust tracking force to suggested manufacturer's setting and then VTA.
Then listen. Then adjust tracking force by ear and then adjust VTA by
ear. Go back and forth until you have the best sound you can get.





>
> I look forward to hearing from you.
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Rupesh Patre

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

I always thought that the stylus should be on the centred spot ? You seem
to have set the system up with the cartridge too far forward in the arm. I
have usually found that the cartridge mounts at the back of the mounting
lugs and that the additional lines are to get the cartridge parallel.
Richard
New Ash Green Hi-Fi Club
<rupesh@patre.com> wrote in message news6q5md0f27@news1.newsguy.com...
> Hi,
>
> I've recently bought a new Michell Gyro SE with Origin Live Silver
> tonearm and Reson Aciore cartridge. I have a problem with aligning the
> cartridge. I've used both the protractor that came with the Hi Fi News
> Test LP and the Turntable Basics (www.turntablebasics.com) protractor.
>
> Both protractors imply that for correct alignment there should be
> cartridge underhang and not overhang. This does not seem right to me.
> I've taken some photos to show you:
>
> http://www.patre.com/michell
>
>
> I'm pretty certain I've used both protractors correctly. Also can
> someone please tell me what order I should make the adjustments to my
> turntable ie tracking force, VTA adjustment etc.
>
> I look forward to hearing from you.
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Rupesh Patre

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

In article <d6tq8o01p7r@news2.newsguy.com>,
"Richard Wall" <Richard@richardwall.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> I always thought that the stylus should be on the centred spot ? You seem
> to have set the system up with the cartridge too far forward in the arm. I
> have usually found that the cartridge mounts at the back of the mounting
> lugs and that the additional lines are to get the cartridge parallel.
> Richard
> New Ash Green Hi-Fi Club
> <rupesh@patre.com> wrote in message news6q5md0f27@news1.newsguy.com...
> > Hi,
> >
> > I've recently bought a new Michell Gyro SE with Origin Live Silver
> > tonearm and Reson Aciore cartridge. I have a problem with aligning the
> > cartridge. I've used both the protractor that came with the Hi Fi News
> > Test LP and the Turntable Basics (www.turntablebasics.com) protractor.
> >
> > Both protractors imply that for correct alignment there should be
> > cartridge underhang and not overhang. This does not seem right to me.
> > I've taken some photos to show you:
> >
> > http://www.patre.com/michell
> >
> >
> > I'm pretty certain I've used both protractors correctly. Also can
> > someone please tell me what order I should make the adjustments to my
> > turntable ie tracking force, VTA adjustment etc.
> >
> > I look forward to hearing from you.
> >
> > Many thanks,
> >
> > Rupesh Patre

Maybe too obvious, but think that it is the diamond that needs to be in
the right spot, this sometimes makes the cartridge look out of place...
--
Joakim Wendel
Remove obvious mail JUNK block for mail reply.

My homepage : http://violinist.nu

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

Not even close. This used to be a high-end audio forum where you could
get good answers to those questions. Now it seems that all that is
discussed are compressed digital formats on I-pods...
At any rate, if the original poster wants some real info, he might try
the Vinyl Asylum where there are quite a few knowledgable folks who
will be eager to help. Basically, the question can't be answered short
of asking for more info as we don't know why he can't align the
cartridge without more info. First however, you need to establish the
correct VTA. Second the correct overhang, which will eliminate any
"position in the headshell" silliness. Third the VTF and fourth the
anti-skating.
-Bill
www.uptownaudio.com
Roanoke VA
(540) 343-1250

"Richard Wall" <Richard@richardwall.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news6tq8o01p7r@news2.newsguy.com...
>I always thought that the stylus should be on the centred spot ? You
>seem
> to have set the system up with the cartridge too far forward in the
> arm. I
> have usually found that the cartridge mounts at the back of the
> mounting
> lugs and that the additional lines are to get the cartridge
> parallel.
> Richard
> New Ash Green Hi-Fi Club
> <rupesh@patre.com> wrote in message
> news6q5md0f27@news1.newsguy.com...
>> Hi,
>>
>> I've recently bought a new Michell Gyro SE with Origin Live Silver
>> tonearm and Reson Aciore cartridge. I have a problem with aligning
>> the
>> cartridge. I've used both the protractor that came with the Hi Fi
>> News
>> Test LP and the Turntable Basics (www.turntablebasics.com)
>> protractor.
>>
>> Both protractors imply that for correct alignment there should be
>> cartridge underhang and not overhang. This does not seem right to
>> me.
>> I've taken some photos to show you:
>>
>> http://www.patre.com/michell
>>
>>
>> I'm pretty certain I've used both protractors correctly. Also can
>> someone please tell me what order I should make the adjustments to
>> my
>> turntable ie tracking force, VTA adjustment etc.
>>
>> I look forward to hearing from you.
>>
>> Many thanks,
>>
>> Rupesh Patre
>

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

Uptown Audio wrote:
> Not even close. This used to be a high-end audio forum where you could
> get good answers to those questions. Now it seems that all that is
> discussed are compressed digital formats on I-pods...
> At any rate, if the original poster wants some real info, he might try
> the Vinyl Asylum where there are quite a few knowledgable folks who
> will be eager to help. Basically, the question can't be answered short
> of asking for more info as we don't know why he can't align the
> cartridge without more info. First however, you need to establish the
> correct VTA. Second the correct overhang, which will eliminate any
> "position in the headshell" silliness. Third the VTF and fourth the
> anti-skating.
> -Bill
> www.uptownaudio.com
> Roanoke VA
> (540) 343-1250
>
I have not read much about compressed formats on Ipods, rather about DBT and
Harry Lavos variant of it. It also seems the phono affectionados are in a
minority here, due to the sound and maintainance problems that come with it,
as well in the OP.
Now it doesn't make sense to lament about changes that time brings,
especially not by a top-poster. It seems your newsreader is not configured
rightly. I use OE-quotefix
http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/ which will put your
response and your sig to the bottom.

What refers to the OP, my impression is that the arm is not mounted in the
right position or has to be shortened. The cart suspension is normed and
should not be modified, though many carriers allow for horizontal length
adjustment, but not more than a few millimeters(~0.2" ).
--
ciao Ban
Bordighera, Italy

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

In article <d7qcuq014ji@news2.newsguy.com>, "Ban" <bansuri@web.de>
wrote:

> Uptown Audio wrote:
> > Not even close. This used to be a high-end audio forum where you could
> > get good answers to those questions. Now it seems that all that is
> > discussed are compressed digital formats on I-pods...
> > At any rate, if the original poster wants some real info, he might try
> > the Vinyl Asylum where there are quite a few knowledgable folks who
> > will be eager to help. Basically, the question can't be answered short
> > of asking for more info as we don't know why he can't align the
> > cartridge without more info. First however, you need to establish the
> > correct VTA. Second the correct overhang, which will eliminate any
> > "position in the headshell" silliness. Third the VTF and fourth the
> > anti-skating.
> > -Bill
> > www.uptownaudio.com
> > Roanoke VA
> > (540) 343-1250
> >
> I have not read much about compressed formats on Ipods, rather about DBT and
> Harry Lavos variant of it. It also seems the phono affectionados are in a
> minority here, due to the sound and maintainance problems that come with it,

As to sound: that, of course, is a matter of opinion. :-)

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

Uptown Audio wrote:
> Not even close. This used to be a high-end audio forum where you could
> get good answers to those questions. Now it seems that all that is
> discussed are compressed digital formats on I-pods...
> At any rate, if the original poster wants some real info, he might try
> the Vinyl Asylum where there are quite a few knowledgable folks who
> will be eager to help. Basically, the question can't be answered short
> of asking for more info as we don't know why he can't align the
> cartridge without more info. First however, you need to establish the
> correct VTA. Second the correct overhang, which will eliminate any
> "position in the headshell" silliness. Third the VTF and fourth the
> anti-skating.
> -Bill
> www.uptownaudio.com
> Roanoke VA
> (540) 343-1250



Sorry but these are some pretty bad answers IMO. First of all we don't
even know if the poster has failed to align his cartridge. Azimuth and
antiskate compensation are two different things and he seems to think
they are one thing. *If* the protractors are telling him the overhang
is right then it's right. That has nothing to do with azimuth or
antiskate force.
1. Proper alignment of a cartridge in the headshell is not fixed by
adjusting overhang and VTA. They are seperate geometrical issues. This
is terrible advice. The FIRST thing one must do is get the
cartridge/headshell geometry right. That means geting the cantiliver in
the right direction in the headshell. That has to be done right, it has
to be done first and no other adjustment will fix it if it isn't right.
2. Overhang is adjusted before VTA and tracking force. There is no way
to know if the VTA and tracking force are right if the overhang is
wrong. Period. Changes in VTA and tracking force in theory affect
overhang but if you do the math you will realize the real effect is
microscopic. So get the overhang right first. Start with the recomended
tracking force of the manufacturer and start with a level VTA. Then set
the antiskate force in relationship to the tracking force. Then use the
test record to adjust the antiskate force. Then adjust VTA and tracking
force by ear. Evey time you adjust tracking force you must readjust
antisakte force. *If* your arm allows for azimuth adjustments do that
after setting the tracking force as per manufacturer's recomendations
and after starting VTA at level and after initial setting of antiskate
force. But do it before fine tuning VTA and tracking force et al.





Scott Wheeler

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

I just looked at your photos. Because of the angles the pictures are
taken from, it's hard to be sure but it looks like the double lines on
the protractor are not aimed precisely at the arm pivot. If these lines
were not so aimed, the protractor would give you an incorrect overhang
position.


---MIKE---
>>In the White Mountains of New Hampshire
>> (44° 15' N - Elevation 1580')

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

I have been out of the vinyl business for over 20 years having switched
to CD. I still have a few LPs and a turntable. As I recall, an offset
arm would have a stylus OVERHANG of about 3/8" when properly set up. If
the alignment jig indicates an UNDERhang then I would suspect the jig is
not being used properly. The normal setup procedure would be - level
arm, proper overhang, azimuth (using a mirror), VTA (if adjustment is
possible), tracking force (using a gauge not by sound), anti skating.
Many people feel that anti skating is not really needed, that the effect
varies with program material (loud or soft) and where on the record you
check it.


---MIKE---
>>In the White Mountains of New Hampshire
>> (44° 15' N - Elevation 1580')

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

On 3 Jun 2005 20:31:04 GMT, Jenn <jennconducts@hotmail.com> wrote:

>In article <d7qcuq014ji@news2.newsguy.com>, "Ban" <bansuri@web.de>
>wrote:

>> I have not read much about compressed formats on Ipods, rather about DBT and
>> Harry Lavos variant of it. It also seems the phono affectionados are in a
>> minority here, due to the sound and maintainance problems that come with it,
>
>As to sound: that, of course, is a matter of opinion. :-)

Not really. Even those who *prefer* vinyl, generally acknowledge the
*technical* limitations of the medium. There are others who are simply
in denial, but that's life for you! :-)

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

---MIKE--- wrote:

> Many people feel that anti skating is not really needed, that the effect
> varies with program material (loud or soft) and where on the record you
> check it.

I am not going to say it doesn't matter (unless you have a linear
tracking arm) but skating force does vary with drag, and therefore with
groove modulations, loud or soft; also since drag also varies with
velocity, which decreases as the stylus approaches the center of the
record; and since the skating vector is derived from the angle at which
the groove is traveling under the stylus relative to stylus-pivot axis,
skating force does vary as to where on the record you check it.

Speaking of linear tracking arms: one of my cartridges, with which I
have a Ken Kessler-type love/hate relationship, is the Decca Super Gold.
In no pivoted arm has it ever performed as well as it does in an ancient
Rabco SL-8, with a custom arm tube and headshell adapted to plug in,
using the same Amphenol connector that Rabco used; mounted on an ancient
AR-XA turntable with a bolt-on suspension adapter to hold and suspend
the Rabco. None of it was designed with complicated computer analysis;
only by cut-and-try, see-how-it-works mechanics. In the Rabco/AR it
tracks better and is more consistently well-behaved than in any other
arm/turntable I have tried. When I get the urge to listen to records
with a Decca, it's easier and more advantageous to swap the entire
turntable, than it is to swap out whatever I have in the "main"
turntable's arm and swap in the Decca.

-GP