Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

whats the difference of a regular Tivo and the Direct tv Tivo? :-\

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

Evil Raphy wrote:
> whats the difference of a regular Tivo and the Direct tv Tivo? :-\

Have you looked at any of the previous postings in this newsgroup?
I answered that question here a week ago.

=======================================================
GTD wrote:

> I've just started looking into Tivo, and have a few questions:

What kind of TiVo are you looking at?

Standalone = local broadcasts, unscrambled analog cable channels,
A/V inputs for external tuner/sat-receiver/cable-box.

TiVo with DVD recorder = Standalone that can record programs
or groups of programs to a DVD. Certain models
can operate without a TiVo subscription. This
"Basic Service" is free but limited.

DirecTV combo units = satellite only, but has two tuners.
This is a TiVo recorder built inside of a DirecTV
receiver; product support comes from DirecTV instead
of from TiVo. Recording two shows at once is great.

HD DirecTiVo = High-definition DirecTV (two satellite tuners)
and local digital broadcast (two ATSC tuners).
Does not do analog broadcasts nor cable-TV.

A TiVo subscription is required for all but the ones that come
with Basic Service (or the older Series 1 units).


-Joe

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

"Joe Smith" <joe@inwap.com> wrote in message
news:Ef-dnb37hKPmD1rfRVn-oQ@comcast.com...
> Evil Raphy wrote:
>> whats the difference of a regular Tivo and the Direct tv Tivo? :-\
>
> Have you looked at any of the previous postings in this newsgroup?
> I answered that question here a week ago.
>
> =======================================================
> GTD wrote:
>
> > I've just started looking into Tivo, and have a few questions:
>
> What kind of TiVo are you looking at?
>
> Standalone = local broadcasts, unscrambled analog cable channels,
> A/V inputs for external tuner/sat-receiver/cable-box.
>
> TiVo with DVD recorder = Standalone that can record programs
> or groups of programs to a DVD. Certain models
> can operate without a TiVo subscription. This
> "Basic Service" is free but limited.
>
> DirecTV combo units = satellite only, but has two tuners.
> This is a TiVo recorder built inside of a DirecTV
> receiver; product support comes from DirecTV instead
> of from TiVo. Recording two shows at once is great.
>
> HD DirecTiVo = High-definition DirecTV (two satellite tuners)
> and local digital broadcast (two ATSC tuners).
> Does not do analog broadcasts nor cable-TV.
>
> A TiVo subscription is required for all but the ones that come
> with Basic Service (or the older Series 1 units).

Another important distinction between Direct TV Tivos and the rest is that
DirectTivos record the satellite mpeg stream directly, there is no encoding
done in the unit. This means that there is no quality setting on a
DirectTivo, everything is recorded at best quality. Generally, DTivos
record a much better picture in a lot less space on the HD. A 80 hour
standalone Tivo may only get 30 hours at best quality, but an 80 hour Dtivo
gets about 80 hours at highest quality. The prime reason for this
difference is DTV can afford to buy top end mpeg encoders and do multipass
encoding of the video, standalones have to get by with a cheaper single-pass
encoder.

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

> Another important distinction between Direct TV Tivos and the rest is
that
> DirectTivos record the satellite mpeg stream directly, there is no
encoding
> done in the unit. This means that there is no quality setting on a
> DirectTivo, everything is recorded at best quality.

No, it means the recording will be done at the same quality as it was
transmitted. This does not mean "best" quality. Some programs are sent at
quite a compressed rate, enough that significant artifacts can crop-up from
time to time.

> but an 80 hour Dtivo
> gets about 80 hours at highest quality.

Again, not wrong but not entirely true. If you record a wide mix of content
it does seem to record "more" than a standalone unit might. But if you end
up recording a lot of stuff that's sent without as much compression (all
movies) it can easily slip to getting less than 80 hours. Nowhere near as
low as an SA unit on Best; more like around 50 hours.

> The prime reason for this
> difference is DTV can afford to buy top end mpeg encoders and do multipass
> encoding of the video, standalones have to get by with a cheaper
single-pass
> encoder.

Yes, DTV's equipment and expertise in managing the downlink bandwidth does
seem to do a better job overall.

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

uray wrote:
> "Joe Smith" <joe@inwap.com> wrote in message
> news:Ef-dnb37hKPmD1rfRVn-oQ@comcast.com...
>> Evil Raphy wrote:
>>> whats the difference of a regular Tivo and the Direct tv Tivo? :-\
>>
>> Have you looked at any of the previous postings in this newsgroup?
>> I answered that question here a week ago.
>>
>> =======================================================
>> GTD wrote:
>>
>>> I've just started looking into Tivo, and have a few questions:
>>
>> What kind of TiVo are you looking at?
>>
>> Standalone = local broadcasts, unscrambled analog cable channels,
>> A/V inputs for external tuner/sat-receiver/cable-box.
>>
>> TiVo with DVD recorder = Standalone that can record programs
>> or groups of programs to a DVD. Certain models
>> can operate without a TiVo subscription. This
>> "Basic Service" is free but limited.
>>
>> DirecTV combo units = satellite only, but has two tuners.
>> This is a TiVo recorder built inside of a DirecTV
>> receiver; product support comes from DirecTV instead
>> of from TiVo. Recording two shows at once is great.
>>
>> HD DirecTiVo = High-definition DirecTV (two satellite tuners)
>> and local digital broadcast (two ATSC tuners).
>> Does not do analog broadcasts nor cable-TV.
>>
>> A TiVo subscription is required for all but the ones that come
>> with Basic Service (or the older Series 1 units).
>
> Another important distinction between Direct TV Tivos and the rest is that
> DirectTivos record the satellite mpeg stream directly, there is no encoding
> done in the unit. This means that there is no quality setting on a
> DirectTivo, everything is recorded at best quality. Generally, DTivos
> record a much better picture in a lot less space on the HD. A 80 hour
> standalone Tivo may only get 30 hours at best quality, but an 80 hour Dtivo
> gets about 80 hours at highest quality. The prime reason for this
> difference is DTV can afford to buy top end mpeg encoders and do multipass
> encoding of the video, standalones have to get by with a cheaper single-pass
> encoder.

How would they do multipass encoding?

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

wkearney99 wrote:
>> Another important distinction between Direct TV Tivos and the rest is that
>> DirectTivos record the satellite mpeg stream directly, there is no encoding
>> done in the unit. This means that there is no quality setting on a
>> DirectTivo, everything is recorded at best quality.
>
> No, it means the recording will be done at the same quality as it was
> transmitted. This does not mean "best" quality. Some programs are sent at
> quite a compressed rate, enough that significant artifacts can crop-up from
> time to time.
>
>> but an 80 hour Dtivo
>> gets about 80 hours at highest quality.
>
> Again, not wrong but not entirely true. If you record a wide mix of content
> it does seem to record "more" than a standalone unit might. But if you end
> up recording a lot of stuff that's sent without as much compression (all
> movies) it can easily slip to getting less than 80 hours. Nowhere near as
> low as an SA unit on Best; more like around 50 hours.
>

Do you know how DTV determines how much compression each channel uses? You
mention "movies". Do you mean PPV movies only? Do more popular channels get less
compression than less popular ones? Or do sports channels get less compression
to minimize motion artifacts? Are these consciously made decisions or are they
automated depending on the content of a particular channel at a particular time.
(VBR)

>> The prime reason for this
>> difference is DTV can afford to buy top end mpeg encoders and do multipass
>> encoding of the video, standalones have to get by with a cheaper single-pass
>> encoder.
>
> Yes, DTV's equipment and expertise in managing the downlink bandwidth does
> seem to do a better job overall.

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

"DanR" <dhr22@sorrynospm.com> wrote:
>uray wrote:
>> The prime reason for this difference is DTV can afford to buy top
>> end mpeg encoders and do multipass encoding of the video, standalones
>> have to get by with a cheaper single-pass encoder.
>
>How would they do multipass encoding?

Basically: Delay the video a few seconds and have one chip make a pass
on the video and send some information to a second processor in the
chain so it has a better idea of what to do.

See these results for more information:

http://www.google.com/search?q=lookahead+mpeg

[DirecTV could also do more advanced multipass encoding on PPV movies
since they have those long in advance of airing, but I have no clue if
they actually do this]

--
<script language="JavaScript">// Scott Seligman
for(var i=0;i<73;i++)document.write(String.fromCharCode(("lsYrsiwb7pir~~|=~fr"+
"~}Rvvrxv~Q}gx~}lz~wmwiqz|sq~tuBpNpzyvp@Lu[" ).charCodeAt(i)-("P2Y*!$1E5#()2*-"+
"#+##*)E!#-*1*1*$)*)+,:*$4!,.0.c0/!@R)cM8-$$=4=" ).charCodeAt(i)+32));</script>

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

wkearney99 (wkearney99@hotmail.com) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
> Again, not wrong but not entirely true. If you record a wide mix of content
> it does seem to record "more" than a standalone unit might. But if you end
> up recording a lot of stuff that's sent without as much compression (all
> movies) it can easily slip to getting less than 80 hours. Nowhere near as
> low as an SA unit on Best; more like around 50 hours.

There are no SD channels on DirecTV with bitrates so high that an 80GB drive
would only record 50 hours. The highest bitrates are less than 3.5Mbps, and
those only show up for short times during high-motion sequences. The
average bitrate is 3Mbps or less for all SD channels, so around 65 hours is
the absolute worst case on an 80GB drive.

The reality is that most channels use far less than this, though, so it's
not uncommon to get more than 80 hours on an 80GB drive.

--
Jeff Rife | "What are you looking at? You're laborers; you
| should be laboring. That's what you get for
| not having an education."
| -- Professor Hathaway, "Real Genius"

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

"wkearney99" <wkearney99@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9pidnaXWhawc2lbfRVn-2g@speakeasy.net...
>> Another important distinction between Direct TV Tivos and the rest is
> that
>> DirectTivos record the satellite mpeg stream directly, there is no
> encoding
>> done in the unit. This means that there is no quality setting on a
>> DirectTivo, everything is recorded at best quality.
>
> No, it means the recording will be done at the same quality as it was
> transmitted. This does not mean "best" quality. Some programs are sent
> at
> quite a compressed rate, enough that significant artifacts can crop-up
> from
> time to time.

Yes it does, because you can't do any better than that. "Best" means the
best recording you can make of the signal, the fact that the signal may
already be degraded is not relevant. Since the Dtivos record the mpeg
stream directly you can't get any better, therefore it's the "best" quality
for the recording.

>> but an 80 hour Dtivo
>> gets about 80 hours at highest quality.
>
> Again, not wrong but not entirely true. If you record a wide mix of
> content
> it does seem to record "more" than a standalone unit might. But if you
> end
> up recording a lot of stuff that's sent without as much compression (all
> movies) it can easily slip to getting less than 80 hours. Nowhere near as
> low as an SA unit on Best; more like around 50 hours.

My recordings tend between about 700meg to 1.2gig per hour. Overall it
averages to about a gig an hour. Certainly far better than the 50 hours you
are claiming.

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

> Yes it does, because you can't do any better than that. "Best" means the
> best recording you can make of the signal, the fact that the signal may
> already be degraded is not relevant.

You're wrong but you're just arguing semantics, so it's not like it matters.

> My recordings tend between about 700meg to 1.2gig per hour. Overall it
> averages to about a gig an hour. Certainly far better than the 50 hours
you
> are claiming.

And I've had plenty of situations where movies were taking nearly 2gb/hr.
What I've discovered, however, is that enough programming on DTV repeats
itself often enough that I really don't bother 'saving' much for very long.
That and there's enough content from other programs to more than satisfy
most of my TV viewing interests. This learning curve seems to be something
a great many Tivo owners eventually discover. But usually long after they
get hung up on free space worries.

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

wkearney99 (wkearney99@hotmail.com) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
> And I've had plenty of situations where movies were taking nearly 2gb/hr.

No, you haven't. DirecTV has never run any SD channels at over 4.5Mbps
average since the introduction of DVRs.

--
Jeff Rife |
| http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/OverT [...] erHair.gif

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

> > And I've had plenty of situations where movies were taking nearly
2gb/hr.
>
> No, you haven't. DirecTV has never run any SD channels at over 4.5Mbps
> average since the introduction of DVRs.

Hey, you go with your anecdotal evidence and I'll go with mine. So please,
spare me the pissing match over it. When I first got my RCADVR49 DirecTivo
I can distincly recally it taking around 2gb/hour for certain recordings,
mostly HBO and PPV movies. I upgraded the drives to a pair of 120's and
stopped worrying about it.

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

DanR wrote:

> Do you know how DTV determines how much compression each channel uses? You
> mention "movies". Do you mean PPV movies only? Do more popular channels get less
> compression than less popular ones? Or do sports channels get less compression
> to minimize motion artifacts? Are these consciously made decisions or are they
> automated depending on the content of a particular channel at a particular time.

They are deliberate decisions made by the network providers.
I wouldn't be surprised if they get cheaper rates for reducing
their VBR for part of the day.

One time, I was watching a "late late night" movie: Attack of the
50 Foot Centerfold. The variable bit rate was cranked down, way
down. Every time the photographer's flash went off, the screen
went completely white, and then took forever to get the details
back. Macroblocking was visible for almost a full second.

The VBR on HBO that same night was much higher; it had no visible
digital artifacts.

-Joe

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

wkearney99 (wkearney99@hotmail.com) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
> When I first got my RCADVR49 DirecTivo
> I can distincly recally it taking around 2gb/hour for certain recordings,
> mostly HBO and PPV movies.

Again, you did not see this. You might have seen 3GB for the full movie
(about 1.5GB/hour), but they haven't had any bitrates that high in a *long*
time, and have never gone to bitrates as high as 4Mbps for *any* SD
channel, let alone the nearly 5Mbps that would be required for an hour
to take 2GB.

There are many, many people that monitor this on a regular basis and post
the results, and none of those support your 2GB/hour claim.

--
Jeff Rife | "Ahhh, what an awful dream! Ones and zeroes
| everywhere...and I thought I saw a two!"
| -- Bender, "Futurama"

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

Speaking of replacing drives for a lager hard drive....what is the easiest
way to get all the info copied from my old drive to my new drive?


"Jeff Rife" <wevsr@nabs.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1d39c9dc783b54ac989e58@news.nabs.net...
> wkearney99 (wkearney99@hotmail.com) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
>> When I first got my RCADVR49
>> DirecTivo
>> I can distincly recally it taking around 2gb/hour for certain recordings,
>> mostly HBO and PPV movies.
>
> Again, you did not see this. You might have seen 3GB for the full movie
> (about 1.5GB/hour), but they haven't had any bitrates that high in a
> *long*
> time, and have never gone to bitrates as high as 4Mbps for *any* SD
> channel, let alone the nearly 5Mbps that would be required for an hour
> to take 2GB.
>
> There are many, many people that monitor this on a regular basis and post
> the results, and none of those support your 2GB/hour claim.
>
> --
> Jeff Rife | "Ahhh, what an awful dream! Ones and zeroes
> | everywhere...and I thought I saw a two!"
> | -- Ben