Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

A question for you folks that have DirecTv and DVR / DVD burners.
The DirecTivo records the digital stream to the hard drive and therefore the
playback looks the same as live DirecTv. Are there boxes that can record to DVD
in the same manner? If so is the DVD playback limited to playing back through
that box or can the DVDs playback on any DVD player?
The root of my question has to do with how much video / audio you can squeeze
onto a single layer DVD and have decent playback. The DirecTivo records almost
one hour of program per one gigabyte of hard drive space. But trying to squeeze
3 hours of TV program onto a single layer DVD usually results in a degraded
playback.
Another question. When watching "live tv" on a DirecTivo am I "really" watching
live tv? (not an immediate playback off the hard drive) Could be my imagination
but it seems that the picture quality of my R10 is not as good as my old
original RCA box.

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

"DanR" <dhr22@sorrynospm.com> wrote in message
news:%Vnge.638$sb5.229@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
> A question for you folks that have DirecTv and DVR / DVD burners.
> The DirecTivo records the digital stream to the hard drive and therefore
the
> playback looks the same as live DirecTv. Are there boxes that can record
to DVD
> in the same manner? If so is the DVD playback limited to playing back
through
> that box or can the DVDs playback on any DVD player?
>
This may not directly anser your question, but the Tivo can output to DVD as
easily as VCR, or so the manual claims.

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

* DanR Wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:

> A question for you folks that have DirecTv and DVR / DVD burners.
> The DirecTivo records the digital stream to the hard drive and
> therefore the playback looks the same as live DirecTv. Are there
> boxes that can record to DVD in the same manner? If so is the DVD
> playback limited to playing back through that box or can the DVDs
> playback on any DVD player? The root of my question has to do with
> how much video / audio you can squeeze onto a single layer DVD and
> have decent playback. The DirecTivo records almost one hour of
> program per one gigabyte of hard drive space. But trying to
> squeeze 3 hours of TV program onto a single layer DVD usually
> results in a degraded playback.

You can use a program like DVD Shrink (Freeware) to do the
compression. THis program lets you take a dual layer store bought DVD
and compresses it to fit on a single layer DVD. IME it still ooks
very good. I only have a 36" TV and no HiDef so I am not sure if it
looks worse under different circumstances but I'd say its worth a
shot if you dont find an easier more direct solution

http://www.dvdshrink.org/what.html

> Another question. When watching "live tv" on a DirecTivo am I
> "really" watching live tv?

No. You are actually a second or so behind live.

--
David

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

"Robert B. Peirce" <rbp@cooksonpeirce.com> wrote in message
news:428215c3$1_3@news.nauticom.net...

> > A question for you folks that have DirecTv and DVR / DVD
> > burners. The DirecTivo records the digital stream to the
> > hard drive and therefore the playback looks the same as
> > live DirecTv. Are there boxes that can record to DVD
> > in the same manner? If so is the DVD playback limited to
> > playing back through that box or can the DVDs playback
> > on any DVD player?
> >
> This may not directly anser your question, but the Tivo can output
> to DVD as easily as VCR, or so the manual claims.

Yes, but that's after the DTivo converts from digital to analogue and
then the DVD recorder converts it once again from analogue back to
digital. Each conversion introduces some loss in signal quality.

AFAIK, there's no DTivo box with a built-in DVD recorder. DirecTV and
Tivo have deliberately designed their equipment NOT to allow you to
transfer the DirecTV digital signal to DVD without converting from
digital to analogue and then back again.

DanR raises an interesting question. DVDs will hold an hour of video in
XP mode (highest quality) and 2 hours of video in SP mode. If the Tivo
hard drive holds about one hour of video per GB, then theoretically, you
could get 4.5 hours of video at DTivo quality on a one single sided DVD.
Seems hard to believe. Is the DirecTV compression scheme that much
better than what's available on DVD recorders and PCs?

Perhaps someone who's hacked their DTivo can address the questions that
DanR raises.

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

On Wed, 11 May 2005 10:25:07 -0400, "Robert B. Peirce"
<rbp@cooksonpeirce.com> wrote:

>
>"DanR" <dhr22@sorrynospm.com> wrote in message
>news:%Vnge.638$sb5.229@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
>> A question for you folks that have DirecTv and DVR / DVD burners.
>> The DirecTivo records the digital stream to the hard drive and therefore
>the
>> playback looks the same as live DirecTv. Are there boxes that can record
>to DVD
>> in the same manner? If so is the DVD playback limited to playing back
>through
>> that box or can the DVDs playback on any DVD player?
>>
>This may not directly anser your question, but the Tivo can output to DVD as
>easily as VCR, or so the manual claims.

I think he means ripping the mpegs so he can burn lossless without going
through the analog conversion.

Try visiting the forums at www.dealdatabase.com

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

>>This may not directly anser your question, but the Tivo can output to DVD as
>>easily as VCR, or so the manual claims.
>
>
> I think he means ripping the mpegs so he can burn lossless without going
> through the analog conversion.
>
> Try visiting the forums at www.dealdatabase.com

I think he *really* wants to record the video to DVD in the compressed
satellite format to maximize space. The problem with doing this is that
no DVD player would be able to play it back, since the compression is
proprietary to Directv. So the answer is basically no. Even if Directv
released a Directivo/DVD combo, the video would have to be converted to
a DVD compatible MPEG2 format before it was recorded. That's better
than doing a compressed digital --> analog --> DVD digital conversion,
but it still involves a conversion.

Randy S.

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

SINNER wrote:
> * DanR Wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
>
>> A question for you folks that have DirecTv and DVR / DVD burners.
>> The DirecTivo records the digital stream to the hard drive and
>> therefore the playback looks the same as live DirecTv. Are there
>> boxes that can record to DVD in the same manner? If so is the DVD
>> playback limited to playing back through that box or can the DVDs
>> playback on any DVD player? The root of my question has to do with
>> how much video / audio you can squeeze onto a single layer DVD and
>> have decent playback. The DirecTivo records almost one hour of
>> program per one gigabyte of hard drive space. But trying to
>> squeeze 3 hours of TV program onto a single layer DVD usually
>> results in a degraded playback.
>
> You can use a program like DVD Shrink (Freeware) to do the
> compression. THis program lets you take a dual layer store bought DVD
> and compresses it to fit on a single layer DVD. IME it still ooks
> very good. I only have a 36" TV and no HiDef so I am not sure if it
> looks worse under different circumstances but I'd say its worth a
> shot if you dont find an easier more direct solution
>
> http://www.dvdshrink.org/what.html
>
>> Another question. When watching "live tv" on a DirecTivo am I
>> "really" watching live tv?
>
> No. You are actually a second or so behind live.

When my downstairs RCA (old model) DirecTV receiver is tuned to the same channel
as my upstairs DirecTivo (R10) there is approximately a 1/4 to 1/2 second delay
between the two. The DirecTivo is delayed. So I'm thinking that I'm always
watching off the buffer on the R10. So when people say the quality is the same
for live and playback... seems that we are always watching playback. But... if
the digital signal sent to the video circuits is the same both ways it shouldn't
matter. Or does it? Might there be extra compression happening as the signal is
recorded to the hard drive.

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

Randy S. wrote:
>>> This may not directly anser your question, but the Tivo can output to DVD as
>>> easily as VCR, or so the manual claims.
>>
>>
>> I think he means ripping the mpegs so he can burn lossless without going
>> through the analog conversion.
>>
>> Try visiting the forums at www.dealdatabase.com
>
> I think he *really* wants to record the video to DVD in the compressed
> satellite format to maximize space. The problem with doing this is that
> no DVD player would be able to play it back, since the compression is
> proprietary to Directv. So the answer is basically no. Even if Directv
> released a Directivo/DVD combo, the video would have to be converted to
> a DVD compatible MPEG2 format before it was recorded. That's better
> than doing a compressed digital --> analog --> DVD digital conversion,
> but it still involves a conversion.
>
> Randy S.

My question is mostly theoretical. Wondering how DirecTv is able to squeeze the
video so much and still maintain acceptable image quality.

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

>>No. You are actually a second or so behind live.
>
>
> When my downstairs RCA (old model) DirecTV receiver is tuned to the same channel
> as my upstairs DirecTivo (R10) there is approximately a 1/4 to 1/2 second delay
> between the two. The DirecTivo is delayed. So I'm thinking that I'm always
> watching off the buffer on the R10. So when people say the quality is the same
> for live and playback... seems that we are always watching playback. But... if
> the digital signal sent to the video circuits is the same both ways it shouldn't
> matter. Or does it? Might there be extra compression happening as the signal is
> recorded to the hard drive.

The difference shouldn't be attributable to the fact that it's recorded,
the signal is digital, and directivo's record the original digital
signal (since compression is probably *more* important to save satellite
bandwidth than saving hard drive space, the compression is already
better than anything your Tivo could do unassisted).

However, there could be a difference in the video circuitry between the
two units. If the RCA unit has higher quality circuitry, then the image
could definitely appear higher quality.

Randy S.

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

"David Z" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:3eelfcF2nhq1U1@individual.net...
> "Robert B. Peirce" <rbp@cooksonpeirce.com> wrote in message
> news:428215c3$1_3@news.nauticom.net...
>
>> > A question for you folks that have DirecTv and DVR / DVD
>> > burners. The DirecTivo records the digital stream to the
>> > hard drive and therefore the playback looks the same as
>> > live DirecTv. Are there boxes that can record to DVD
>> > in the same manner? If so is the DVD playback limited to
>> > playing back through that box or can the DVDs playback
>> > on any DVD player?
>> >
>> This may not directly anser your question, but the Tivo can output
>> to DVD as easily as VCR, or so the manual claims.
>
> Yes, but that's after the DTivo converts from digital to analogue and
> then the DVD recorder converts it once again from analogue back to
> digital. Each conversion introduces some loss in signal quality.
>
> AFAIK, there's no DTivo box with a built-in DVD recorder. DirecTV and
> Tivo have deliberately designed their equipment NOT to allow you to
> transfer the DirecTV digital signal to DVD without converting from
> digital to analogue and then back again.
>
> DanR raises an interesting question. DVDs will hold an hour of video in
> XP mode (highest quality) and 2 hours of video in SP mode. If the Tivo
> hard drive holds about one hour of video per GB, then theoretically, you
> could get 4.5 hours of video at DTivo quality on a one single sided DVD.
> Seems hard to believe. Is the DirecTV compression scheme that much
> better than what's available on DVD recorders and PCs?
>
> Perhaps someone who's hacked their DTivo can address the questions that
> DanR raises.
>
>
>
You can indeed record the directivo files in a lossless way. Directv does
create files that are a little over 1 gb/hour. You can fit 4 hours on a dvd
with no loss in quality from the original directv program. How does directv
do this? They use a lot of compression, which results in some quality loss.
Most people don't seem to notice it, but it is definitely there. Video is
clear, but soft, if that makes sense. You need to hack your dtivo to
transfer the recordings. The site was mentioned earlier in this thread, it
is not for the faint of heart, or the technically challenged. It requires
you to remove the hard drive from your tivo, put it in a pc, and do some
software changes.

Rick

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

Randy S. wrote:
> >>This may not directly anser your question, but the Tivo can output
to DVD as
> >>easily as VCR, or so the manual claims.
> >
> >
> > I think he means ripping the mpegs so he can burn lossless without
going
> > through the analog conversion.
> >
> > Try visiting the forums at www.dealdatabase.com
>
> I think he *really* wants to record the video to DVD in the
compressed
> satellite format to maximize space. The problem with doing this is
that
> no DVD player would be able to play it back, since the compression is

> proprietary to Directv. So the answer is basically no. Even if
Directv
> released a Directivo/DVD combo, the video would have to be converted
to
> a DVD compatible MPEG2 format before it was recorded. That's better
> than doing a compressed digital --> analog --> DVD digital
conversion,
> but it still involves a conversion.
>
> Randy S.

This is incorrect. I can't speak for people using Tivo to go (but they
are all SA users anyway, and this is a directv discussion) but I
extract the streams from my HDVR2 and burn them all the time. You'll
need to hack the box (dealdatabase is the best place to start, but, as
was mentioned, not for the faint of heart, although I did manage to
figure it out) and go from there. No re-encoding required, just some
data juggling to change the file from a .ty datastream (the tivo
format) to mpeg2 (which it basically already is, minus header
information, etc.)

Once your directivo is hacked (which is a day's project, probably) you
can see the box on your home network. Use Tytool to grab the .ty
files. They are mpeg2 but not really DVD spec. They're 480x480, but
most new dvd players can read them just fine. Tytool will take you
from grabbing a .ty file, creating a key file (needed for editing
purposes), editing the key file to exclude lead in and lead out,
commercials, etc, creating a .vob file (which DVD players can use), and
authoring the disc. There is no re-encoding required, and the DVDs I
make are EXACTLY the same as what I watch on my HDVR2. This includes
the 5.1 sound, if present. You just need to make sure your DVD player
will like the discs. Mine does, and it's 2 years old (a JWIN
multi-region) and cost 100 bucks. The whole process, from grabbing,
say, Deadwood over the network (at 2 meg/sec) to having a burned disc
of the show, takes about 15 minutes. You can get about 4 hours onto a
disc and the quality is exactly the same as what you see on directv.
If you're happy with that you'll be happy with the disc.

I wrote a walkthrough in this group a while back. Search for it and
you'll have a good place to start with the hacking.

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

> This is incorrect. I can't speak for people using Tivo to go (but they
> are all SA users anyway, and this is a directv discussion) but I
> extract the streams from my HDVR2 and burn them all the time. You'll
> need to hack the box (dealdatabase is the best place to start, but, as
> was mentioned, not for the faint of heart, although I did manage to
> figure it out) and go from there. No re-encoding required, just some
> data juggling to change the file from a .ty datastream (the tivo
> format) to mpeg2 (which it basically already is, minus header
> information, etc.)

Ok, thanks, obviously some incorrectly drawn conclusions on my part. So
Now that I think about it, I should have known that Directv is
broadcasting in MPEG2 natively, and the Tivo is only encrypting it,
which can be disabled by hacking. It's just that the higher quality
compression that Directv is able to do is better than consumer grade
PC's are capable of, though they can certainly play it back just fine.

Rady S.

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

* Wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:

> I wrote a walkthrough in this group a while back. Search for it and
> you'll have a good place to start with the hacking.

http://groups-beta.google.com/grou [...] a50f?hl=en

--
David

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

"Randy S." <rswitt@nospamgmail.com> wrote in message
news5tam5$vta$1@spnode25.nerdc.ufl.edu...
>>>No. You are actually a second or so behind live.
>>
>>
>> When my downstairs RCA (old model) DirecTV receiver is tuned to the same
>> channel
>> as my upstairs DirecTivo (R10) there is approximately a 1/4 to 1/2 second
>> delay
>> between the two. The DirecTivo is delayed. So I'm thinking that I'm
>> always
>> watching off the buffer on the R10. So when people say the quality is the
>> same
>> for live and playback... seems that we are always watching playback.
>> But... if
>> the digital signal sent to the video circuits is the same both ways it
>> shouldn't
>> matter. Or does it? Might there be extra compression happening as the
>> signal is
>> recorded to the hard drive.
>
> The difference shouldn't be attributable to the fact that it's recorded,
> the signal is digital, and directivo's record the original digital signal
> (since compression is probably *more* important to save satellite
> bandwidth than saving hard drive space, the compression is already better
> than anything your Tivo could do unassisted).
>
> However, there could be a difference in the video circuitry between the
> two units. If the RCA unit has higher quality circuitry, then the image
> could definitely appear higher quality.
>
> Randy S.

Very true, and it is wise to remember that it doesn't take much to
cause a minor loss. Even the power circuit (leg) you plug into can
have an effect, if one is noisier that the other.

"DanR", you might see my response to "worrier" in rec.video.desktop.

Luck;
Ken