If you havnt heard, ATI is to use the Havok engine in the future. Havok is used in many games, in many ways. ATI until now was somewhat without a true physics engine thats used in gaming as well as for cpu usage. Heres a few links http://www.amd.com/us-en/Corporate [...] 48,00.html and http://www.tgdaily.com/html_tmp/co [...] 7-135.html In my opinion, this is a shutout for nVidia, and TWIMTBP. Not using DX10.1 and saying its not important after what we all saw with AC may have been the last straw for the AMD/ATI team. I know it looks weird to see AMD heading towards an Intel subsidiary, but after all the things that nVidia had possibly done to control gaming, this just may be payback. This will leave nVidia in a bad spot. Something had to happen as ATI needed this, but going with nVidia wasnt in the cards. Another blow to nVidia here. Thoughts?

im happy to see ati back in the game. now those arrogant green team wont overprice there cards. everyday more and more amazing info is coming out of ati wonder wats next. nvidia seems quite now wonder how those gtx 280/260 going to perform. anyone no the final release dates for the ati and nvidia cards?

With competition one improves.
Without competition, nVidia grew arrogant and somehow bullied other companies.
Now the Intel and AMD are taking their revenge.
Somehow reminds me of the good old Gordon Frohman...

hmmm crossfirex advantage... supported by amd and intel chipsets

weird bed fellows... hmmm

Remember, physics is becoming a huge aprt of gaming. It can currently be done with CUDA or Havok. One or the other. That means TWIMTBP is going to lose many influences with this, and we will start seeing some benefits using ATI cards now too. As this is also supported by Intel , and eventually Larrabee, this is going to effect nVidia. I see this cenario. nVidia eventually goes in this direction as well, and this becomes a sort of standard, where no one will have a clear advantage in games, unlike the past

I see it as a way for AMD/ATI to be able to guarantee it's continued existence. It can work more closely with Intel keeping a fairly open relationship on the Video card Crossfire side of things. Making it so AMD/ATI can leverage the graphics side of the company while the CPU side is failing to compete on the higher end.

Could also mean that even if the CPU side of things fail we'll still see them around as a video card and chipset manufacturer.

yes and run by an arrogant arrogant man, well go on ati

its like all my birthdays/Christmas's rolled in to one

don't like to kick anyone when there down but in this case, BOOT

Quite a brilliant move by intel, if you ask me. Since AMD offers graphics solutions on the intel platform and intel has a Physics engine but no GPUs, why not let AMD compete with NVidia on intels platform. And while AMD will try to establish havoc physics and probably even help to improve it, intel can develop their own physics processor/larrabee/many-core/whatever-you-call it. Once they are done, they just slip in with their own offering.
In addition to all that, once AMD starts to put the GPU on the CPU-die, i bet they will put a few instructions in that were born out of this very cooperation. If that happens, Havoc will be the new physics standard. Would be a good thing too.

^ Thats exactly what Im thinking. As I kept hearing Larrabee is coming , and would be a viable product in graphics from the get go, I was wondering how this would happen with nVidia having such a lead with CUDA. Now, everyones going to give ATI their due, ONLY because of this. They really never had a TWIMTBP system going like nVidias, and this lets them have one, and sets the market for Larrabee when it arrives. Like I said, bad news for nVidia

I know most of us know this but lets not forget that ATI falling behind was never their fault. They probably could have chucked it in and produced a new arch by now but they stuck with what they had and knew that in time the arch they have would pay dividends. To me this is a welcome development, both are heading in the same direction with the long term goal being a CP/GPU ( im not sure what the correct term is). One of the things that came out of the whole larabee/ray tracing thing was that the DX would nt be needed. It could be that in the fullness of time the joint efforts of these two companies may give both M$ and Nvidia the comeuppance the bullying attitude they tend to display deserves.
Mactronix

The problem is, if Intel refuse to give Havok rights after the Larrabee system is ready or increase the payment that has to be payd for usin havoc engine techology.
This can cause Nvidia to try to find more supporter to PhysX engine from other companies. There will be many games that has only one of those systems supported in the short term. Much like HD-DVD and Blue ray. In long term there can only be one winner in this competition..

They already are the physics standard, and have been for a while.
Far more games are power by Havoc than Novodex (Ageia/PhysX/nV), the only major title for nV is UE3 based games, and while they're ok the're far from the major force and PhysX acceleration was optional and not eally used (which limits its short term use too since no plans). Compare title support;

First Havok:
http://www.havok.com/content/blogcategory/29/73/

Now Ageia:
http://www.ageia.com/physx/

Oh wait that's right they've moved that old name is dead (why kill the old links and not just re-direct?), here it is;
http://www.nzone.com/object/nzone_physxgames_home.html

You decide what are the big names on those lists, keeping in mind GRAW is built on Havoc not PhysX which is add-on stuff.

This makes alot of sense for AMD because they also do the CPU thing, which is the traditional and easy way to do physics, supporting nV's CUDA based standard promotes a new way limited to nV's style, which is even more limited.

The best option was always M$ bringing out their own API, which doesn't seem to be in the cards anymore. That would've kept it to whomever does the best implementation, now that it' divided into camps there's politics and PR involved, which means people will bribe developers to stick with one or the other, and not just pick the best.

Another thing I was afraid of too. M$ is falling asleep here. This hurts nVidia, helps both Intel and ATI, but like you said, and I feared, leaves us with no standards.

@ Everyone...very nice thread. Surprised this didn't break out into a poo flinging RvG brawl....yet...

It will be interesting to watch Intel and ATI/AMD try to squeeze NV out of the picture. Intel has done a swell job getting NV on it's own little island and now we have ATI getting back up to speed. Is it possible that GITG will make a comeback?...and I thought 2008 was going to be a dull year

Already have read it, but seems this one confirms it aswell.

I think this was just a more desperate move than anything else. And if Larrabee and/or Buldozer starts using havoc in its microcode, well, we got ourselves a standart. Nvidia PhyscX has to really good to beat this combination.

Oh well, im happy ATI got Havok anyway. I think 2008 will continue to be a year of twists and turns. Witch is fine and dany for us, the users

A good excuse to hold on to your old graphics card. Potentially now I can buy a 4870 and then run PhysX through my old 8800GTS 640.

Thanks for Nice thread but I just wonder if Havok technology can merge into HD4870 when it is available in market as the time seems too rush for having Havok technology inside.