We've built and tested our low-, mid- and higher-cost systems at standard and overclocked speeds. Now we're ready to compare their performance, price, and value.

http://www.tomshardware.com/2008/0 [...] index.html

I'd just like to say that TH is still doing great articles like they always have, and methinks the complainers have budget issues (less budget issues than I, that's for sure) or just have a bad attitude.
If we don't get exactly what we want in a review, it's not easy to extrapolate what we personally want to do(or wanted to know) in or for our own purchases, but then that's what learning the ins and outs of the reviews is for - and with READING it, and thinking, one can usually make solid conclusions.
Do your own thinking, and you can tweak out the conclusions you need from the review articles, and so base your own purchases/knowledge on what you need it for to begin with.
That being said, this bum would:
Stick with dual striped CHEAP sata, and (add a 3rd $45 hardrive if need be - $135 FAST triple striper) and an overlclocked lower end dual core or core 2 duo, a "low board" <$100 (sli or crossfire -yes they're out there) , then save for a second 9600GT, and to tell you the truth, that would be a smoking hot system, more than beyond the average gamers needs, even the hardcore gamer would be fine.
I'd sure like to be surrounded by the high end hardware - where the bottom choices are above my budget... but TH has allowed me to KNOW how to spend my dollars on upgrades.
My golly, even the very top systems sometimes cannot play the latest games at high rez with a successful framerate - whereas a lower end (lower , lower , lower end according to the fat wallets around here) can do just fine, and with what has been learned from these excellent articles, a cheap system can be a screamer.
Thanks TH, this is one long time fan who has taken it kinda personally when I see complaints on the "quality of articles" here at TH. No offense to the complainers either, I'm just saying, think a little, they cannot do everything under the sun, and nitpicking single words in the titles or whatever is really silly when you think about it.
Thanks for a great site, and good posters too, yes even the people pointing out/complaining make helpful tips, even when I consider their complaints a bit misplaced.

Seriously, I could have built a sweet gaming system with the low end's $1000 budget that performs similar to the Mid-Cost PC. I don't understand why Tom's paid so much for feeble parts. An E8400 ($200), GA-EP35-DS3R ($130), 4GB Ram ($50), 8800GTX ($290) or 2X 3870 ($360), a good Antec case + PSU ($120) and some cheap misc. parts will beat the Mid-Cost PC in game and half the office suits.

I believe I mentioned the E8400 was not available at retail when we built the systems. if it was I would certainly have chosen it. The sub $200 choices were E6750 and 9500, and the 9500 stands up well in that comparison.

Cleeve's right, Intel isn't exactly handing out E8400's to reviewers, a few E8500's and that was it. Someone would have had to buy an E8400, and they were only available for a few hours as I recall before they all vanished.

It would be MUCH easier to read the comparison graphs if the order of the systems was kept consistent and meaningful. I would much rather be able to quickly determine whether the overclocked mid-price system beat the high-end system than to have the bars be all pretty and in descending order. The point of a bar graph is to have the length of the bars show their value, not their location.

meaningful order ->
descending order ->

phenom wasn't exactly a budget overclocking part... it's a budget cpu with good price/performance rating on stock only...

What's the time frame you're talking about, late January? E8400 OEM is $190 at Newegg and 4GB memory has been at sub $100 for a while now.

"Our machines were intended to serve as examples of balanced machines for various price brackets, but your particular needs should govern any purchasing decision."

Translation, we screwed up, here is our excuse.

No, the translation comes from you, ie "I Blood_Raven am a moron". As in, a moron who would tell people to use a Raptor drive in a multimedia machine designed for both playing games and working with HD content.

Thanks for reaffirming your irrelavence, but please quit distracting others from more useful persuits.

First and foremost... Holy ****, new forums. They're actually usable. Nice.

Now that that's out of the way, I was once a loyal regular of tomshardware, but a few years ago the site and I just got out of sync. I forget exactly when it happened, but one day I read an article it was just flat out wrong. In my eyes, TH sold out or our differing views just became too different. I keep an eye on TH hoping that some day we may agree again. Your benchmarks are much closer to other sites now, but it's articles like this that really break my heart.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea, but I think it's misguided/flawed and really doesn't provide any useful information for me. To me, the systems build lack a direction or goal other than a price point. The conclusion derived from the benchmarks really doesn't help me decide much of anything.

What I would have liked to have seen:

Expected user profiles - Know who your building a system for, know what their needs are, and make a meaningful conclusion based off of it. Pick some typical users and give them titles. A few examples: the Gamer, the MMOer, the Surfer(aka Mom), the Artist, the Modeler, the Overclocker, the Guy-who-likes-to-flash-his-bling...

Performance goals- Establish minimum acceptable benchmarks before building and testing the systems. This sort of fits in with the profiling idea.

Don't use price points - Aim for general tiers, build the lowest reasonable system you can, then try to up it by just 1. I suspect the build range would be something like $500-700, $800-1000, $1200-1500, $2k+.

Please the fanboys - Try and have a side by side comparison for each tier. Or at least discuss the opposing factions in your build options. Explain the price or performance difference, let the fanboys know what their alligence is costing them.

Factor for the difference of OCing - Talk about the difference at a minimum. Try and compare the differences if you can. Let the overclocker see how much $ he can save, but also show the person who doesn't want the risk/work what the better stock options are.

And with that, I'm late for class.

installing a radiator inside a case only moves heat around inside the case. while the single radiator is small the dual top radiator would have worked fine for just cooling the cpu and mobo.

2 radiators sideways would not be as clean as the dual set up

overall nice build! but why no dual raptors with storage?

i have 2 raptors with storage on this microatx box with only a lowly e6750 - raptors increase responsiveness while overpriced quad core cpus do little but make nice bench marks

I'd disagree, I prefer the descending order for most benchmarks, so long as they're color coded the same though out the article. Maybe the conclusion section could be sorted by build price, but for the bulk of the benchmarks I prefer sorted by performance.

Ah, but the top radiator is cooled by warm case air while the bottom radiator is cooled by intake air. So sending the coolant to the top radiator reduces it to case temperature, while sending it from the top radiator to the bottom radiator reduces the temperature even further. Add to that, the bottom radiator is also the reservoir, after all you do need some way to fill the system.

that may be wrong - it may appear to be right but if you measure the air in those spots i think you find that you are wrong with both set ups.

since the first radiator is in line first most of the heat is dumped back into the case rasing the entire temp of the case. so that the bottom air may be warmer over time

key is moving heat out of the system - its very simple concept and it can not be beat. regardless the radiator is way oversize the temps will be about the same.

you think i just like to argue if you read my posts - well its true - my physics prof wanted to toss me from class i had 98% in the class- this list goes on.

its a nice build and you did a good job - i guess i just have to ship a unit for you guys to test!

since the system is called high end, it should be high end - high end is dual loop with all heat vent externanally.

i will post pictures on this thread of do this right. dual loop, 3 radaitors (3 120size) with 6 fans in push pull config - it beats any set up and i am sure it will be copied like all my stuff.


remember THG said you need nitrogen to get 4.1ghz at the same time i wad building 4.1ghz air cooled pentium systems!

Yeh, three 120mm radiators, or one double and one single 120mm radiator. The top fans are both exhaust, the front fan is indeed an intake. None of the radiators are 100% efficient, and to top it off there's a flow imbalance of 4 exhaust fans an 1 intake fan that will force air to be pulled from other places. The imbalance can't be fixed.

the pictures are of a newly started system - sorry no time to throw a mobo and mount the rear rad/fan assembly. this was proprietary - only sold to existing customers. now its out i am sure it will be copied - if anyone else knows of dual fan, dual loop triple rad set