Archived from groups: comp.dcom.lans.ethernet (More info?)

Hi,

I am new to networks. I have read that Token rings are more
expensive than ethernet. They seems to be using same amount of
cabling, don't they ?, is it expensive to build the NICs for Token
ring ?, is it management cost that is higher in the case of Token ring
?
Can anyone explain me why ?
Can you also tell by what % are Token rings expensive than ethernet in
a typical network with 100 nodes.

-shar

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.lans.ethernet (More info?)

In article <105ab9cd.0409170801.5201d392@posting.google.com>,
sharkie <itsharkopath@yahoo.com> wrote:
: I am new to networks. I have read that Token rings are more
:expensive than ethernet. They seems to be using same amount of
:cabling, don't they ?, is it expensive to build the NICs for Token
:ring ?, is it management cost that is higher in the case of Token ring

I have never used or priced Token Ring, but I can offer some
hypotheses.

In modern switched Ethernet networks, the communication between
different computers can often proceed in parallel. With 10BaseT,
100BaseT, and 100BaseTX, each end-node -must- be connected to a switch
or router [more exactly, each segment must consist of exactly two devices.]
With full duplex, that implies no collisions on the segments, and
thus no need for elaborate mechanisms that are designed to prevent
collisions. There are still flow control issues, but they are taken
care of by buffering [and "atomic locks"] in the switches, with
packets dropped only when the switch buffers get full. One can chain
together additional simple switches and routers and additional devices
with little concern about the effect upon other devices.

Token ring, on the other hand, expects looped segments, dual cables to
each device, and that the NICs fail to pass-through [so if a device
dies, the next device in the chain still gets the signal.] One cannot
simply hook up more devices and leave ports unconnected at will: one
must maintain the loop. Which is fine if your setup is quite static,
but is not condusive to rapidly changing environments in which users
expect to be able to just plug in or unplug anything that has a network
interface. Token ring bridges certainly do exist, but if you want
to be able to get to the easy plug-in convenience of Ethernet, you
end up having to go to the star "exactly two devices per segment"
topology, in which case it becomes mostly redundant to bother with the
token.

This situation leads to a greater demand for switched ethernet
than for token ring, so companies put more resources into mass
production of ethernet devices, get "economies of scale",
with the result that the prices keep falling on ethernet devices
and manufacturers have little incentive to make cheap token ring.

--
Live it up, rip it up, why so lazy?
Give it out, dish it out, let's go crazy, yeah!
-- Supertramp (The USENET Song)

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.lans.ethernet (More info?)

"sharkie" <itsharkopath@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I am new to networks. I have read that Token rings are more
> expensive than ethernet. They seems to be using same amount of
> cabling, don't they ?, is it expensive to build the NICs for Token
> ring ?, is it management cost that is higher in the case of Token ring
> ?
> Can anyone explain me why ?
> Can you also tell by what % are Token rings expensive than ethernet in
> a typical network with 100 nodes.

Just a matter of sales volume. No point sticking with Token Ring though,
is there?

In the early days of LANs, there were many different flavors, each with
its zealous and vociferous proponents. I suppose that was also true in
the early days of the automobile, with steam, electric, and gasoline
powered cars vying for public acceptance. After that initial period,
winners emerge and the others become historical oddities.

Happened with wired LANs too.

Bert

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.lans.ethernet (More info?)

In article <I477MB.Jvt@news.boeing.com>,
Albert Manfredi <albert.e.manfredi@nospam.com> wrote:
>"sharkie" <itsharkopath@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I am new to networks. I have read that Token rings are more
>> expensive than ethernet. They seems to be using same amount of
>> cabling, don't they ?, is it expensive to build the NICs for Token
>> ring ?, is it management cost that is higher in the case of Token ring
>> ?
>> Can anyone explain me why ?
>> Can you also tell by what % are Token rings expensive than ethernet in
>> a typical network with 100 nodes.
>
>Just a matter of sales volume. No point sticking with Token Ring though,
>is there?
>
>In the early days of LANs, there were many different flavors, each with
>its zealous and vociferous proponents. I suppose that was also true in
>the early days of the automobile, with steam, electric, and gasoline
>powered cars vying for public acceptance. After that initial period,
>winners emerge and the others become historical oddities.
>
>Happened with wired LANs too.
>
>Bert
>


When TR was a 4Mb/sec ring and Ethernet was a 10Mb/sec shared bus
there were all sorts of studies that claimed that "colisions" would
make Ethernet unpredictable above some threshold. In a corporate
environment reliability and maintainability have a high priority, as
it should be. When used in an all-IBM environmant there were system
management and diagnstics tools that Ethernet and IP didn't get until
managed hubs came into use.

When Ethernet was a stiff orange coax cable as thick as your pinky TR
cable didn't look that bad.

Only a few companies made TR cards and becasue of interoperability
problems with PC brands a company tended to buy one brand of card and
stick with it. There wasn't lots of competition and stuff was priced
for huge businesses, who look for stability and vendor support.







--
Al Dykes
-----------
adykes at p a n i x . c o m

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.lans.ethernet (More info?)

"sharkie" <itsharkopath@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:105ab9cd.0409170801.5201d392@posting.google.com...
> Hi,
>
> I am new to networks. I have read that Token rings are more
> expensive than ethernet. They seems to be using same amount of
> cabling, don't they ?, is it expensive to build the NICs for Token
> ring ?, is it management cost that is higher in the case of Token ring
> ?
see the other posts for some perspectives based on scale and market share.

the other issue is that token ring is a lot more complex - complicated NIC
cards (which must have their own processor to handle ring management),
complex design rules amd / or complex hubs.

And source routing (used in T/R bridges and switches) is complex, and needs
NIC type managment, and is difficult to do in a hardware accelerated chip.

Source routing in a resilient networks also tends to generate multiple
copies of a broadcast, so it was diffcult to build large resilient T/R
systems - and they had to be planned carefully, or they didnt work reliably.

So - slower (although i did work on some IBM 100 Mbps T/R)
Shared (but switched / full duplex T/R eventually appeared)
complex (and the support complications probably helped to kill it off)
expensive

and finally - it was really tied to IBM - there was a set of IEEE standards,
but wherever IBM went a different way, so did all the other manufacturers to
maintain compatibility with the dominant manufacturer.

> Can anyone explain me why ?
> Can you also tell by what % are Token rings expensive than ethernet in
> a typical network with 100 nodes.

A bit irrelevant now as i dont know of anyone making new T/R cards, hubs
etc. (well - maybe Cisco et al will sell you an interface for a router, or
IBM a NIC card for a mainframe....)

it used to run out 2 to 3 times the price - but there wasnt any T/R
equivalent to cheap Taiwanese Enet NICs, so that was only comparing leading
(=expensive) brands.
>
> -shar
--
Regards

Stephen Hope - return address needs fewer xxs

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.lans.ethernet (More info?)

sharkie wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I am new to networks. I have read that Token rings are more
> expensive than ethernet. They seems to be using same amount of
> cabling, don't they ?, is it expensive to build the NICs for Token
> ring ?, is it management cost that is higher in the case of Token ring
> ?
> Can anyone explain me why ?
> Can you also tell by what % are Token rings expensive than ethernet in
> a typical network with 100 nodes.

The real reason for the cost difference was very simple--IBM controlled the
technology and charged a premium for the license. Now it's expensive
because there is only one vendor doing a relatively tiny sales volume while
Ethernet has become a mass-market consumer product.

As for the percentage, well, the cheapest Token Ring NIC on the market goes
for about $135. New Intel 100TX NICs go for about $25 or white box
Taiwanese for $4. The cheapest Token Ring switch on the market is a
managed 24 port for $2650. New HP J4813As go for about $435, or you can go
to a D-Link with roughly equivalent functionality but not quality for about
360. Or if you want to go to an unmanaged switch you can go as low as $70
for 24 ports.

So, lowest price for NICs and switches for 24 nodes of 16 Mb/sec Token Ring
would be about $5890 vs 166 for 100 Mb/sec Ethernet. For equivalent
quality and functionality 100 Mb/sec Ethernet would cost $1035. To that
add the cabling cost--at $100/drop (a conservative number for the most
part) that would be $2400 for any of them. Then there's delivery and
installation of the hardware--for a network that size that's pretty much
plug and play so call it a day to get everything set up and tested--that's
another $800 or so depending on your labor rates and overhead. So, minimum
cost for Token Ring would be about $9090, an equivalent but much faster
Ethernet about $4235, and a minimum cost Ethernet about $3560. So 16
Mb/sec Token Ring, installed, would go 2-3 times more than 100 Mb/sec
Ethernet at this time.

Of course that's all for new--if you're willing to go to used equipment
Token Ring hardware gets dirt cheap--if you search hard enough you may find
someone willing to pay you to haul it away.

> -shar

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.lans.ethernet (More info?)

In article <%mH2d.394$Lq3.262@newsfe3-win.ntli.net>,
stephen <stephen_hope.xx@ntlxworld.com> wrote:
>
>"sharkie" <itsharkopath@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:105ab9cd.0409170801.5201d392@posting.google.com...
>> Hi,
>>
>> I am new to networks. I have read that Token rings are more
>> expensive than ethernet. They seems to be using same amount of
>> cabling, don't they ?,

No, they used more expensive cabling - IBM Type-1 cabling is rather hard
to work with, and the hermaphroditic connectors take a whole lot more work
to install than an RJ45.


> is it expensive to build the NICs for Token
>> ring ?,

Yes. Each token ring nic needs its own microprocessor, where an Ethernet
nic has just a few fifos.

>>is it management cost that is higher in the case of Token ring

yes. Tracking down a problem in a token ring requires young guys with
good ears to run over to a closet and find the connection that's clicking.
The experienced guys who spent too much time in raised floor rooms would
lose their hearing from the incessant AC noise and not be able to hear the
tell-tale click of a machine beaconing.

>> Can you also tell by what % are Token rings expensive than ethernet in
>> a typical network with 100 nodes.

Let's use 96 nodes, since ethernet devices tend to come in 12's and token
ring devices in 8's. For a high-end gigabit deployment today, I can drop
two Cisco gigabit switches in for about $20K total. Gig nics are about
$70 each, so another $7000 there, and wire is about $300/drop installed in
a corporate environment, so $57K.

Token ring nics are about $450 each. You can get an 8-port 16-Meg TR
switch for about $10K, and the wire is more expensive and harder to pull
and terminate - we'll call it $500 per drop. So, that's $45K in nics,
$120K in switches, and $50K in wire - $215K, or almost 4 times the cost
for 1/60th the bandwidth.

I put in a switched token ring environment (with ATM backbone) for a state
government agency about 6 years ago, so these costs are pretty close.
They ripped it all out and switched to ethernet after about 3 years.

--
Daniel J McDonald CCIE # 2495, CNX
Visit my website: http://www.austinnetworkdesign.com

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.lans.ethernet (More info?)

In article <a92dnZIU2P_bmNPcRVn-pg@io.com>,
Daniel J McDonald <djmcdona@fnord.io.com> wrote:
>In article <%mH2d.394$Lq3.262@newsfe3-win.ntli.net>,
>stephen <stephen_hope.xx@ntlxworld.com> wrote:
>>
>>"sharkie" <itsharkopath@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>news:105ab9cd.0409170801.5201d392@posting.google.com...
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I am new to networks. I have read that Token rings are more
>>> expensive than ethernet. They seems to be using same amount of
>>> cabling, don't they ?,
>
>No, they used more expensive cabling - IBM Type-1 cabling is rather hard
>to work with, and the hermaphroditic connectors take a whole lot more work
>to install than an RJ45.
>

When TR came out Ethernet was the original think orange coax with
vampire taps. The IBM design looked very good for wiring an office in
comparison.

The original 100 node/500 meter limit looked fine in 1980. In the
original design I don't think anyone gave any thought as to how to
link thinknet segments together to extend them. For a Data Center
with raised floors, ethernet was fine.

Token ring never got faster than 16Mb/sec as far as I know, and many
people though that 10Mb/sec ethernet was as fast or faster, most of
the time. As soon as 100Mb ethernet with managed hubs hit the street
TR was dead for new projects, except for diehard IBM shops.

The cost of the NIC is small potatos in the budget for a corporation
wiring a facility. Wiring costs are much higher, but even they get
amortized over years. Reliability and Time required to loacte and fix
a problem very important and corporations will pay for it. TR was
ahead of Ethernet in this regard until managed UTP/STP hubs were
developed.

>
>> is it expensive to build the NICs for Token
>>> ring ?,
>
>Yes. Each token ring nic needs its own microprocessor, where an Ethernet
>nic has just a few fifos.
>
>>>is it management cost that is higher in the case of Token ring
>
>yes. Tracking down a problem in a token ring requires young guys with
>good ears to run over to a closet and find the connection that's clicking.
>The experienced guys who spent too much time in raised floor rooms would
>lose their hearing from the incessant AC noise and not be able to hear the
>tell-tale click of a machine beaconing.

What did he say ??? :-)

IME The SNA guys could identify failing equipment without getting out
of the chair in the warm, quit, office.



--
Al Dykes
-----------
adykes at p a n i x . c o m

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.lans.ethernet (More info?)

adykes@panix.com (Al Dykes) writes:

> Token ring never got faster than 16Mb/sec as far as I know,

Madge sells 100MBit TR components and IIRC there is at a specification
for 1000MBit TR but no has implemented it (and probably no one ever
will).

Jens

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.lans.ethernet (More info?)

adykes@panix.com (Al Dykes) writes:

> Token ring never got faster than 16Mb/sec as far as I know,

Madge sells 100MBit TR components and IIRC there is a specification
for 1000MBit TR (802.5v?) but no has implemented it (and probably no
one ever will).

Jens

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.lans.ethernet (More info?)

Al Dykes wrote:

> In article <a92dnZIU2P_bmNPcRVn-pg@io.com>,
> Daniel J McDonald <djmcdona@fnord.io.com> wrote:
>>In article <%mH2d.394$Lq3.262@newsfe3-win.ntli.net>,
>>stephen <stephen_hope.xx@ntlxworld.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>"sharkie" <itsharkopath@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>news:105ab9cd.0409170801.5201d392@posting.google.com...
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I am new to networks. I have read that Token rings are more
>>>> expensive than ethernet. They seems to be using same amount of
>>>> cabling, don't they ?,
>>
>>No, they used more expensive cabling - IBM Type-1 cabling is rather hard
>>to work with, and the hermaphroditic connectors take a whole lot more work
>>to install than an RJ45.
>>
>
> When TR came out Ethernet was the original think orange coax with
> vampire taps. The IBM design looked very good for wiring an office in
> comparison.
>
> The original 100 node/500 meter limit looked fine in 1980. In the
> original design I don't think anyone gave any thought as to how to
> link thinknet segments together to extend them. For a Data Center
> with raised floors, ethernet was fine.
>
> Token ring never got faster than 16Mb/sec as far as I know, and many
> people though that 10Mb/sec ethernet was as fast or faster, most of
> the time. As soon as 100Mb ethernet with managed hubs hit the street
> TR was dead for new projects, except for diehard IBM shops.

IBM was shipping 100 Mb/sec Token Ring ages ago. The trouble with it was
that the switches cost vastly more than for Ethernet. And they still cost
vastly more than for gigabit Ethernet, and no doubt if they're still
available when 10 gig over copper goes mass-market they'll cost vastly more
than that as well. One thing IBM never got, even after the PC hit, was the
effect of competition on cost and performance--for Token Ring to continue
to be a player it would have to go mass-market--there's no way that anybody
could continue to justify it over something that was both much cheaper and
much faster.

> The cost of the NIC is small potatos in the budget for a corporation
> wiring a facility. Wiring costs are much higher, but even they get
> amortized over years.

The cost of an Ethernet NIC. The cost of a Token Ring NIC and switch port
is considerably more than the cost of the drop in most cases.

> Reliability and Time required to loacte and fix
> a problem very important and corporations will pay for it. TR was
> ahead of Ethernet in this regard until managed UTP/STP hubs were
> developed.
>
>>
>>> is it expensive to build the NICs for Token
>>>> ring ?,
>>
>>Yes. Each token ring nic needs its own microprocessor, where an Ethernet
>>nic has just a few fifos.
>>
>>>>is it management cost that is higher in the case of Token ring
>>
>>yes. Tracking down a problem in a token ring requires young guys with
>>good ears to run over to a closet and find the connection that's clicking.
>>The experienced guys who spent too much time in raised floor rooms would
>>lose their hearing from the incessant AC noise and not be able to hear the
>>tell-tale click of a machine beaconing.
>
> What did he say ??? :-)
>
> IME The SNA guys could identify failing equipment without getting out
> of the chair in the warm, quit, office.

His experience with Token Ring is clearly more outdated than mine, and
mine's pretty outdated.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.lans.ethernet (More info?)

Daniel J McDonald wrote:

> In article <%mH2d.394$Lq3.262@newsfe3-win.ntli.net>,
> stephen <stephen_hope.xx@ntlxworld.com> wrote:
>>
>>"sharkie" <itsharkopath@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>news:105ab9cd.0409170801.5201d392@posting.google.com...
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I am new to networks. I have read that Token rings are more
>>> expensive than ethernet. They seems to be using same amount of
>>> cabling, don't they ?,
>
> No, they used more expensive cabling - IBM Type-1 cabling is rather hard
> to work with, and the hermaphroditic connectors take a whole lot more work
> to install than an RJ45.

Token Ring runs fine on CAT5 and many Token Ring NICs and access units have
RJ-45 connectors.

>> is it expensive to build the NICs for Token
>>> ring ?,
>
> Yes. Each token ring nic needs its own microprocessor, where an Ethernet
> nic has just a few fifos.

That's odd, I've never seen a microprocessor on a Token Ring board.

>>>is it management cost that is higher in the case of Token ring
>
> yes. Tracking down a problem in a token ring requires young guys with
> good ears to run over to a closet and find the connection that's clicking.

Doesn't work with anything but the hard-relay MAUs. Switches don't click.
The drivers usually report beaconing on any reasonably modern machine.

> The experienced guys who spent too much time in raised floor rooms would
> lose their hearing from the incessant AC noise and not be able to hear the
> tell-tale click of a machine beaconing.
>
>>> Can you also tell by what % are Token rings expensive than ethernet in
>>> a typical network with 100 nodes.
>
> Let's use 96 nodes, since ethernet devices tend to come in 12's and token
> ring devices in 8's. For a high-end gigabit deployment today, I can drop
> two Cisco gigabit switches in for about $20K total. Gig nics are about
> $70 each, so another $7000 there, and wire is about $300/drop installed in
> a corporate environment, so $57K.
>
> Token ring nics are about $450 each. You can get an 8-port 16-Meg TR
> switch for about $10K, and the wire is more expensive and harder to pull
> and terminate - we'll call it $500 per drop.

Why does CAT5 for Token Ring cost more per drop than CAT5 for Ethernet?

> So, that's $45K in nics,
> $120K in switches, and $50K in wire - $215K, or almost 4 times the cost
> for 1/60th the bandwidth.

Check the Madge site and Froogle your prices.

> I put in a switched token ring environment (with ATM backbone) for a state
> government agency about 6 years ago, so these costs are pretty close.
> They ripped it all out and switched to ethernet after about 3 years.
>

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.lans.ethernet (More info?)

In article <866569zv7u.fsf@quux.de>, usenet02@quux.de says...
> Madge sells 100MBit TR components and IIRC there is at a specification
> for 1000MBit TR but no has implemented it (and probably no one ever
> will).

We actually bought four of them. It had a GigE bridge built in to
interface with 100Mbs TR. We needed the additional BW until we could do
a POTPIE project. PullOutTR and PutInEthernet.


--

hsb

"Somehow I imagined this experience would be more rewarding" Calvin
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