Archived from groups: alt.engineering.electrical,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

hi all!

we had just had a storm here and all my computers that were hooked
into surge strips got reset at the same time during it.

The wierd thing is I also had a laptop running on a normal outlet and
it did NOT get reset - is the cutting off of power to the devices you
are trying to protect part of the protection system in action?

It just seems really odd that only the devices on surge strips got
reset - things on unprotected outlets like alarm clocks and the laptop
I mentioned did not...

I know thesw things use MOVs which will eventually "blow" given enough
jolts but I was unaware that surge guards might interrupt power to the
device during a surge.

anyway, maybe someone can educate me a little!

thanks :-)

Archived from groups: alt.engineering.electrical,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

gavin@my-deja.com (Gav) wrote:

>we had just had a storm here and all my computers that were hooked
>into surge strips got reset ... is the cutting off of power to the
>devices you are trying to protect part of the protection system in
>action?

What "surge strips"? Did you buy them at a grocery store? What
brand? What model?

Archived from groups: alt.engineering.electrical,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

"Gav" <gavin@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:7da6364d.0501061745.1e196085@posting.google.com...
> hi all!
>
> we had just had a storm here and all my computers that were hooked
> into surge strips got reset at the same time during it.
>
> The wierd thing is I also had a laptop running on a normal outlet and
> it did NOT get reset - is the cutting off of power to the devices you
> are trying to protect part of the protection system in action?

Why would the laptop reset? Even when plugged in, it is running off of the
battery.

>
> It just seems really odd that only the devices on surge strips got
> reset - things on unprotected outlets like alarm clocks and the laptop
> I mentioned did not...

Do your alarm clocks have battery backup? Do they have capacitor
backup?(something most newer VCRs, etc have now to avoid the blinking clock
problem).

>
> I know thesw things use MOVs which will eventually "blow" given enough
> jolts but I was unaware that surge guards might interrupt power to the
> device during a surge.
VERY unlikely that the power was interrupted by the surge guards. You
experienced either a very deep voltage sag or a momentary interruption.
This reset everything without energy storage backup (like the laptop
battery).

Charles Perry P.E.

Archived from groups: alt.engineering.electrical,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

On Thv, 6 Jan 2005 21:21:17 -0500, "Charles Perry"
<pipesandtobacco@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>"Gav" <gavin@my-deja.com> wrote in message
>news:7da6364d.0501061745.1e196085@posting.google.com...
>> hi all!
>>
>> we had jvst had a storm here and all my compvters that were hooked
>> into svrge strips got reset at the same time dvring it.
>>
>> The wierd thing is I also had a laptop rvnning on a normal ovtlet and
>> it did NOT get reset - is the cvtting off of power to the devices yov
>> are trying to protect part of the protection system in action?
>
>Why wovld the laptop reset? Even when plvgged in, it is rvnning off of the
>battery.
>
Power restored, bvt compvters still down

After 45,000 cvstomers in Washington Covnty (Oregon) lost power, some
learned their PCs were damaged

Thvrsday, Janvary 06, 2005

HILLSBORO -- The morning after a falling tree cvt power to nearly
45,000 Washington Covnty cvstomers, residents and employees went to
work Wednesday replacing drained flashlight batteries and repairing
fried compvters.

Portland General Electric officials said a 50-foot fir fell on two
power lines abovt 7:30 p.m. Tvesday. The toppled tree along Northwest
West Union Road west of Helvetia Road started a chain reaction of
failing power svbstations. Within minvtes, a temporary blackovt
blanketed North Plains, Banks, Cornelivs and Hillsboro.

Repair crews restored service to abovt 25,000 residents and bvsiness
owners after two hovrs and to the rest by Wednesday morning.

"It went fairly qvickly," said Vickie Rocker, a PGE spokeswoman.
While the blackovt left some residents wondering who won the Orange
Bowl and others shivering for a few hovrs withovt heat, it cavsed few
seriovs problems, according to Hillsboro Fire & Rescve.
Bvt several compvter repair bvsinesses were hit Wednesday with dozens
of calls to help small-bvsiness owners and homeowners reboot their
machines.

"It's been pretty bvsy all day," said Scott Pilcher, vice president of
Compatible Compvters. "Problems can also come vp weeks or months
later. If it didn't fail that day, it's possible that it covld fail in
the next covple days. . . . It can have a cascading effect on a
compvter system."

Pilcher said his company, which serves cvstomers in western Washington
Covnty and other areas, spent the day assisting small offices and
manvfactvrers, along with homeowners hoping to access the Internet.

Problems ranged from rvined hardware to data corrvption and hard drive
failvres.

Most problems occvrred as a svrge of energy passed throvgh when the
power was restored, said Ed Manivanh, co-owner of Compvchips Etc. in
Hillsboro.

"Yov shovld vnplvg yovr compvter dvring an ovtage," said Manivanh, who
spent a bvsy Wednesday fixing zapped compvters from Banks, Cornelivs
and Hillsboro.


PGE officials recommend that people bvy svrge protectors to gvard
compvters, televisions and other appliances dvring power failvres. If
the svrge protector fails dvring a blackovt, it shovld be replaced
with a new one, Manivanh said.

Archived from groups: alt.engineering.electrical,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Gav wrote:
> hi all!
>
> we had just had a storm here and all my computers that were hooked
> into surge strips got reset at the same time during it.
>
> The wierd thing is I also had a laptop running on a normal outlet and
> it did NOT get reset - is the cutting off of power to the devices you
> are trying to protect part of the protection system in action?
>
> It just seems really odd that only the devices on surge strips got
> reset - things on unprotected outlets like alarm clocks and the laptop
> I mentioned did not...

It's not possible to know what really happened on the AC lines without
having a power monitor on it but your described results are not at all
surprising. All the devices that stayed on have something else in common
other than being on unprotected outlets; they have a built in 'UPS',
battery in the notebook and battery or capacitor hold up in the alarm
clocks, whereas the computer systems on the protected outlets do not.

And it doesn't take anything so dramatic as a lightning storm to do it.
Just go to the main breaker, flip it off for a second then back on, and
you'll get the same result. And that may very well be what the lightning
storm did, except to a power co. feed breaker. They automatically re-close
after a fault so if lightning caused one to trip it would drop power
briefly and then back on.

>
> I know thesw things use MOVs which will eventually "blow" given enough
> jolts but I was unaware that surge guards might interrupt power to the
> device during a surge.

It wasn't the MOVs that caused the interruption. The lightning did. It
either tripped a breaker or it was on the power lines to the devices and
'lightning' isn't 'A.C.', and by that I mean it's not the 'A.C.' that the
power supplies expect for proper operation.

Surge protectors protect the device from being damaged. They don't 'keep it
running'.


> anyway, maybe someone can educate me a little!
>
> thanks :-)

Archived from groups: alt.engineering.electrical,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

"Beachcomber" <not_real@xxx.yyy> wrote in message
news:41de15a4.4792640@news.comcast.giganews.com...
> On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 21:21:17 -0500, "Charles Perry"
> <pipesandtobacco@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Gav" <gavin@my-deja.com> wrote in message
>>news:7da6364d.0501061745.1e196085@posting.google.com...
>>> hi all!
>>>
>>> we had just had a storm here and all my computers that were hooked
>>> into surge strips got reset at the same time during it.
>>>
>>> The wierd thing is I also had a laptop running on a normal outlet and
>>> it did NOT get reset - is the cutting off of power to the devices you
>>> are trying to protect part of the protection system in action?
>>
>>Why would the laptop reset? Even when plugged in, it is running off of
>>the
>>battery.
>>
<snip>
> Most problems occurred as a surge of energy passed through when the
> power was restored, said Ed Manivanh, co-owner of Compuchips Etc. in
> Hillsboro.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Oh, I can't breathe.

Wrong. Likely, the damaged occured when the fault (tree) happened. It is
not uncommon to have a line to ground fault in a distribution system result
in an overvoltage on one, or both, of the two phases that are NOT faulted.
There is no "surge of power" when the power is restored. Sorry.

Charles Perry P.E.

Archived from groups: alt.engineering.electrical,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Gav wrote:
> hi all!
>
> we had just had a storm here and all my computers that were hooked
> into surge strips got reset at the same time during it.
>
> The wierd thing is I also had a laptop running on a normal outlet and
> it did NOT get reset - is the cutting off of power to the devices you
> are trying to protect part of the protection system in action?
>
> It just seems really odd that only the devices on surge strips got
> reset - things on unprotected outlets like alarm clocks and the laptop
> I mentioned did not...
>
> I know thesw things use MOVs which will eventually "blow" given enough
> jolts but I was unaware that surge guards might interrupt power to the
> device during a surge.
>
> anyway, maybe someone can educate me a little!
>
> thanks :-)

Brownouts kill more hard drives than blackouts. All my systems are
connected to APC UPSes to prevent both surge and power fluctuation damage.

--
spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. To jump to the end
of the story, as a result of this I need a bone marrow transplant. Many
people around the world are waiting for a marrow transplant, too. Please
volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

Archived from groups: alt.engineering.electrical,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

gavin@my-deja.com wrote:
>Charles Perry wrote:
>> "Gav" <gavin@my-deja.com> wrote in message

>>> The wierd thing is I also had a laptop running on a normal
>>> outlet and it did NOT get reset -

>> Why would the laptop reset? Even when plugged in, it is running
>> off of the battery.

Good job of seeing through the fog.

>>> It just seems really odd
>>> I was unaware that surge guards might interrupt power to the
>>> device during a surge.

>> VERY unlikely that the power was interrupted by the surge guards.
>> You experienced either a very deep voltage sag or a momentary
>> interruption. This reset everything without energy storage backup
>> (like the laptop battery).

>doh! yep very good point about the laptop using the battery - well
>it was 4am when I posted, sorry for not thinking too clearly :-)

And 3:24PM on Aug 18 2004.

>anyway, these were belkin surgemaster protectors (gold, i.e.
>expensive version, though I am not sure how much difference that
>makes).

It doesn't since the surge suppressor was not the cause.

>Well everything seems to have survived so I guess they worked to
>some extent...

If you want something that works to any extent during a brownout or
blackout, you need a line conditioner or battery backup (also known
as an Uninterruptible Power Supply or UPS).

Archived from groups: alt.engineering.electrical,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

You could say Belkin protectors worked because,
fortunately, they did nothing. How good are those Belkin
products (and what model number)? Start with numbers. How
many joules? Is it at least 3000?

Dirty little secret. Effective protectors cost about $1 per
protected appliance AND protect from the typically destructive
type of surge. Those plug-in Belkin quietly prefer you to
assume all surges are same. Paint it with some gold, and more
assumptions will be made. Again. How many joules? And what
is the let-through voltage? And how much did each cost?

gavin@my-deja.com wrote:
> doh! yep very good point about the laptop using the battery - well it
> was 4am when I posted, sorry for not thinking too clearly :-)
>
> anyway, these were belkin surgemaster protectors (gold, i.e. expensive
> version, though I am not sure how much difference that makes).
>
> Well everything seems to have survived so I guess they worked to some
> extent...

Archived from groups: alt.engineering.electrical,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt (More info?)

Lightning damage and surge suppression is a subject w_tom really
shines on, at least for eliciting intelligent replies.
For example:
http://tinyurl.com/5fu8n

w_tom <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote:

> You could say Belkin protectors worked because,
>fortunately, they did nothing. How good are those Belkin
>products (and what model number)? Start with numbers. How
>many joules? Is it at least 3000?
>
> Dirty little secret. Effective protectors cost about $1 per
>protected appliance AND protect from the typically destructive
>type of surge. Those plug-in Belkin quietly prefer you to
>assume all surges are same. Paint it with some gold, and more
>assumptions will be made. Again. How many joules? And what
>is the let-through voltage? And how much did each cost?
>
>Path: newssvr12.news.prodigy.com!newsdbm05.news.prodigy.com!newsdst02.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!newscon06.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.net!news-feed01.roc.ny.frontiernet.net!nntp.frontiernet.net!nntp.giganews.com.MISMATCH!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.nni.com!news.nni.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
>NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 10:40:40 -0600
>Message-ID: <41DEBB87.E3010284 @hotmail.com>
>Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 11:40:39 -0500
>From: w_tom <w_tom1 @hotmail.com>
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (WinNT; U)
>X-Accept-Language: en
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Newsgroups: alt.engineering.electrical,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
>Subject: Re: surge protection - power cut during surge?
>References: <7da6364d.0501061745.1e196085@posting.google.com> <346a0vF47h6bjU1@individual.net> <1105103823.202418.303870@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Lines: 21
>NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.107.36.207
>X-Trace: sv3-IqrP2kjngzKc8SM0+qNR56k2pcdYbM2vbJTPnvAbvStdlIBdcW50/ylfgF0G6aQ2xk6dEsQKbyn/n1j!9jx2o+BsLCIAa53GbgRznvg0SBAAk8TkK3t6UTN6rceikScBMAwyWdx6EWOLpbtX
>X-Complaints-To: abuse@nni.com
>X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@nni.com
>X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
>X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
>X-Postfilter: 1.3.22
>Xref: newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com alt.engineering.electrical:151949 alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt:426284