Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsme.general,microsoft.public.windowsupdate (More info?)

On the one hand, I am reluctant to start a new thread, with so many already
scattered about. On the other hand, I have something concrete that I
discovered, and it seems to warrant a new thread.

As a background, I found that the "Kb891711.exe" patch caused problems on
one of my computers. Poking around the groups I found a scattered list of
possible causes. Broswers. AV programs. Software firewalls. Processors. In
every case, somebody had a counter example to the claim.

My solution to avoid the crashes was to stop the process with the Close
Programs list; the computer running Windows ME. Then use Add/Remove Programs
from the Control Panel to remove it from the system. This deletes four
registry keys, and two system files; leaving only the folder to which the
system files were written. So there is no need to take super drastic steps;
like System Restore rollback, or Format & Reinstall. Worst case is that you
would have to boot in Safe Mode, I should think.

However, I was curious. Because of the counter examples, I decided to
install the patch on a second, identical computer. Both computers are HP
Pavilion 6745Cs. Intel Celeron 700MHz processors. Intel 82810 graphics chip
set. Windows ME. Kb891711 crashes one computer ("Megumi" ), but not the other
computer ("Naomi" ). Differences? A few programs in startup; but none on
Megumi that are definitively problematic on every computer with crashes; I
can find a counter example for each program on Megumi, which doesn't cause
crashes on some other computer.

When I checked the driver versions, I notice that I hadn't updated the
graphics drivers on Naomi. As things stood, I had the following:

Megumi:
-------

Intel Celeron 700MHZ processor
Intel 82810 graphics chip set (driver version: 4.13.01.3196)
Windows ME

Naomi:
------

Intel Celeron 700MHZ processor
Intel 82810 graphics chip set (driver version: 4.13.01.3004)
Windows ME

Kb891711 causes all browsers to blue screen on Megumi, but causes no
problems on Naomi.

So I just rolled back the driver update on Megumi; it is now, like Naomi, on
Intel driver version 4.13.01.3004. I just reinstalled the Kb891711 "patch".
Tested launch on all browsers which crashed Megumi before. MSIE6 SP1,
Firefox 1.0.1, Mozilla 1.7.5, Netscape 7.2. No crashes.

It looks, to me, like a graphics driver issue. I don't know if the onus
should be on Intel to provide an updated graphics driver for the 82810
graphics chip set, but I suspect not. Kb891711 is a "kludge", not a "patch".
It does not patch system files, it runs resident from the RunServices key.
The vulnerability that it "fixes" is still present. In my opinion, this
"kludge" needs to be fixed with a true patch; one that won't break the OS
when current graphics drivers are installed.

Now to review the MSFT write up on the vulnerability. It may be that I don't
need to run kb891711.exe; if my default browser, Firefox 1.0.1, isn't
vulnerable, I will just restore things. On Megumi, anyway.

--
Norman
~Win dain a lotica, En vai tu ri, Si lo ta
~Fin dein a loluca, En dragu a sei lain
~Vi fa-ru les shutai am, En riga-lint

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsme.general (More info?)

Looks good to me Norman. I did ask you elsewhere whether the bios version
was the same for both systems (shades of the Prescott XP SP2 debacle last
year) but it would appear that your findings have dispensed with that as
being a possible reason for the problem.
--
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp [...] ichol.mspx
In memory of a very dear friend, Windows MVP Alex Nichol

Mike Maltby MS-MVP
mike.maltby@gmail.com


N. Miller <anonymous@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:

> On the one hand, I am reluctant to start a new thread, with so many
> already scattered about. On the other hand, I have something concrete
> that I discovered, and it seems to warrant a new thread.
>
> As a background, I found that the "Kb891711.exe" patch caused
> problems on one of my computers. Poking around the groups I found a
> scattered list of possible causes. Broswers. AV programs. Software
> firewalls. Processors. In every case, somebody had a counter example
> to the claim.
>
> My solution to avoid the crashes was to stop the process with the
> Close Programs list; the computer running Windows ME. Then use
> Add/Remove Programs from the Control Panel to remove it from the
> system. This deletes four registry keys, and two system files;
> leaving only the folder to which the system files were written. So
> there is no need to take super drastic steps; like System Restore
> rollback, or Format & Reinstall. Worst case is that you would have to
> boot in Safe Mode, I should think.
>
> However, I was curious. Because of the counter examples, I decided to
> install the patch on a second, identical computer. Both computers are
> HP Pavilion 6745Cs. Intel Celeron 700MHz processors. Intel 82810
> graphics chip set. Windows ME. Kb891711 crashes one computer
> ("Megumi" ), but not the other computer ("Naomi" ). Differences? A few
> programs in startup; but none on Megumi that are definitively
> problematic on every computer with crashes; I can find a counter
> example for each program on Megumi, which doesn't cause crashes on
> some other computer.
>
> When I checked the driver versions, I notice that I hadn't updated the
> graphics drivers on Naomi. As things stood, I had the following:
>
> Megumi:
> -------
>
> Intel Celeron 700MHZ processor
> Intel 82810 graphics chip set (driver version: 4.13.01.3196)
> Windows ME
>
> Naomi:
> ------
>
> Intel Celeron 700MHZ processor
> Intel 82810 graphics chip set (driver version: 4.13.01.3004)
> Windows ME
>
> Kb891711 causes all browsers to blue screen on Megumi, but causes no
> problems on Naomi.
>
> So I just rolled back the driver update on Megumi; it is now, like
> Naomi, on Intel driver version 4.13.01.3004. I just reinstalled the
> Kb891711 "patch". Tested launch on all browsers which crashed Megumi
> before. MSIE6 SP1, Firefox 1.0.1, Mozilla 1.7.5, Netscape 7.2. No
> crashes.
>
> It looks, to me, like a graphics driver issue. I don't know if the
> onus should be on Intel to provide an updated graphics driver for the
> 82810 graphics chip set, but I suspect not. Kb891711 is a "kludge",
> not a "patch". It does not patch system files, it runs resident from
> the RunServices key. The vulnerability that it "fixes" is still
> present. In my opinion, this "kludge" needs to be fixed with a true
> patch; one that won't break the OS when current graphics drivers are
> installed.
>
> Now to review the MSFT write up on the vulnerability. It may be that
> I don't need to run kb891711.exe; if my default browser, Firefox
> 1.0.1, isn't vulnerable, I will just restore things. On Megumi,
> anyway.

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsme.general,microsoft.public.windowsupdate (More info?)

Very interesting, all.

This is the problem I am currently having after downloading that same WinME
security update last Friday (3/11). I kept getting blue screen (Windows)
error messages (crashes requiring restarts) while online, then even before
getting online! I uninstalled it today, then ran "msconfig" and unselected
"StartUp Group" items (in Selective Startup), restarted my PC, and did some
puter maint (Disk cleanup, ScanDisk, and Disk Defrag). Then I went into
msconfig again and re-selected startup group items in Selective Startup again
(I always run my pc on selective startup--too many hookups when I use
"Normal" startup), and restarted my PC again.

So far, no blue screens! Tho, I did go to Windows Update and tried to
re-download the security patch, but can't because--even after uninstalling
it--the scan ignores my uninstall and the Update History page still shows a
successful download of that patch! Ack! So annoying. But, then again, if
the patch is so damaging to WinME, do I really NEED it? I have, and run,
Norton Internet Security 2004 with Live Update--plus I update DAILY!

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsme.general,microsoft.public.windowsupdate (More info?)

The patch isn't as such damaging to Win Me but rather causes major
problems such as you are seeing for certain video card/video driver
combinations.

A couple of questions if I may. What video card/chip does your PC have
and what driver version do you have installed. You will find this
information at System Properties | Device Manager. Also what is the make,
model and speed of your processor, that is AMD or Intel, etc.

Regards,
--
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp [...] ichol.mspx
In memory of a very dear friend, Windows MVP Alex Nichol

Mike Maltby MS-MVP
mike.maltby@gmail.com


CataBird62 <CataBird@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:

> Very interesting, all.
>
> This is the problem I am currently having after downloading that same
> WinME security update last Friday (3/11). I kept getting blue screen
> (Windows) error messages (crashes requiring restarts) while online,
> then even before getting online! I uninstalled it today, then ran
> "msconfig" and unselected "StartUp Group" items (in Selective
> Startup), restarted my PC, and did some puter maint (Disk cleanup,
> ScanDisk, and Disk Defrag). Then I went into msconfig again and
> re-selected startup group items in Selective Startup again (I always
> run my pc on selective startup--too many hookups when I use "Normal"
> startup), and restarted my PC again.
>
> So far, no blue screens! Tho, I did go to Windows Update and tried to
> re-download the security patch, but can't because--even after
> uninstalling it--the scan ignores my uninstall and the Update History
> page still shows a successful download of that patch! Ack! So
> annoying. But, then again, if the patch is so damaging to WinME, do
> I really NEED it? I have, and run, Norton Internet Security 2004
> with Live Update--plus I update DAILY!

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsme.general,microsoft.public.windowsupdate (More info?)

In article <556AB32E-C158-4641-90EA-79B390B4AD0E@microsoft.com>, =?Utf-8?B?
Q2F0YUJpcmQ2Mg==?= says...

> So far, no blue screens! Tho, I did go to Windows Update and tried to
> re-download the security patch, but can't because--even after uninstalling
> it--the scan ignores my uninstall and the Update History page still shows a
> successful download of that patch! Ack! So annoying. But, then again, if
> the patch is so damaging to WinME, do I really NEED it? I have, and run,
> Norton Internet Security 2004 with Live Update--plus I update DAILY!

If you didn't get the program files out of the folder they installed to,
Windows Update will find them, and declare your system to be current. For
Windows Me, C:\WINDOWS\SYTEM\KB891711; you will find two files there:
Q891711.EXE and Q891711.DLL. The installation also creates four registry
keys; all of which have "891711" in them.

--
Norman
~Win dain a lotica, En vai tu ri, Si lo ta
~Fin dein a loluca, En dragu a sei lain
~Vi fa-ru les shutai am, En riga-lint

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsme.general,microsoft.public.windowsupdate (More info?)

"N. Miller" <anonymous@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ca282ccc08c4aa498a6e2@msnews.microsoft.com...
> In article <556AB32E-C158-4641-90EA-79B390B4AD0E@microsoft.com>,
> =?Utf-8?B?
> Q2F0YUJpcmQ2Mg==?= says...
>
> If you didn't get the program files out of the folder they installed to,
> Windows Update will find them, and declare your system to be current. For
> Windows Me, C:\WINDOWS\SYTEM\KB891711; you will find two files there:
> Q891711.EXE and Q891711.DLL. The installation also creates four registry
> keys; all of which have "891711" in them.
>
So what is the method to cleaning up the bad update so that future fixed
updates will download and install?

Sarah

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsme.general,microsoft.public.windowsupdate (More info?)

Norman, have you tested whether just renaming the two file's extensions, to
file_name.old, for example will permit Windows Update to reoffer the
"patch"?

--
Jack E. Martinelli 2002-05 MS MVP for Shell/User / DTS
Help us help you: http://www.dts-L.org/goodpost.htm

http://www.microsoft.com/athome/se [...] fault.aspx
In Memorium: Alex Nichol
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp [...] ichol.mspx
Your cooperation is very appreciated.
------
"N. Miller" <anonymous@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ca282ccc08c4aa498a6e2@msnews.microsoft.com...
> In article <556AB32E-C158-4641-90EA-79B390B4AD0E@microsoft.com>,
=?Utf-8?B?
> Q2F0YUJpcmQ2Mg==?= says...
>
> > So far, no blue screens! Tho, I did go to Windows Update and tried to
> > re-download the security patch, but can't because--even after
uninstalling
> > it--the scan ignores my uninstall and the Update History page still
shows a
> > successful download of that patch! Ack! So annoying. But, then again,
if
> > the patch is so damaging to WinME, do I really NEED it? I have, and
run,
> > Norton Internet Security 2004 with Live Update--plus I update DAILY!
>
> If you didn't get the program files out of the folder they installed to,
> Windows Update will find them, and declare your system to be current. For
> Windows Me, C:\WINDOWS\SYTEM\KB891711; you will find two files there:
> Q891711.EXE and Q891711.DLL. The installation also creates four registry
> keys; all of which have "891711" in them.
>
> --
> Norman
> ~Win dain a lotica, En vai tu ri, Si lo ta
> ~Fin dein a loluca, En dragu a sei lain
> ~Vi fa-ru les shutai am, En riga-lint

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsme.general,microsoft.public.windowsupdate (More info?)

> So what is the method to cleaning up the bad update so that future fixed
> updates will download and install?
>
> Sarah

Any new WU update will almost certainly have a new number to distinguish it
from this one, KB891711.
--
Jack E. Martinelli 2002-05 MS MVP for Shell/User / DTS
Help us help you: http://www.dts-L.org/goodpost.htm

http://www.microsoft.com/athome/se [...] fault.aspx
In Memorium: Alex Nichol
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp [...] ichol.mspx
Your cooperation is very appreciated.
------
"Sarah" <s.oriley@@nowhere.invalid> wrote in message
news:%23g6fjNvKFHA.1528@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> "N. Miller" <anonymous@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1ca282ccc08c4aa498a6e2@msnews.microsoft.com...
> > In article <556AB32E-C158-4641-90EA-79B390B4AD0E@microsoft.com>,
> >
<SNIP>

> So what is the method to cleaning up the bad update so that future fixed
> updates will download and install?
>
> Sarah
>

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsme.general,microsoft.public.windowsupdate (More info?)

"N. Miller" <anonymous@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ca282ccc08c4aa498a6e2@msnews.microsoft.com...
> In article <556AB32E-C158-4641-90EA-79B390B4AD0E@microsoft.com>,
=?Utf-8?B?
> Q2F0YUJpcmQ2Mg==?= says...
>
> > So far, no blue screens! Tho, I did go to Windows Update and tried to
> > re-download the security patch, but can't because--even after
uninstalling
> > it--the scan ignores my uninstall and the Update History page still
shows a
> > successful download of that patch! Ack! So annoying. But, then again,
if
> > the patch is so damaging to WinME, do I really NEED it? I have, and
run,
> > Norton Internet Security 2004 with Live Update--plus I update DAILY!
>
> If you didn't get the program files out of the folder they installed to,
> Windows Update will find them, and declare your system to be current. For
> Windows Me, C:\WINDOWS\SYTEM\KB891711; you will find two files there:
> Q891711.EXE and Q891711.DLL. The installation also creates four registry
> keys; all of which have "891711" in them.
>
> --
> Norman

Excellent info. I used Add/Remove to get rid of KB891711, however, the
KB891711 folder with the two files mentioned in you post are in the
windows/system folder. Also, a search of the registry for KB891711 found a
couple of them. Do I understand correctly that to get completely rid of
this patch/update I can delete all of these findings--the kb891711
folder/files and the registry references?
MLD

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsme.general,microsoft.public.windowsupdate (More info?)

If Task Manager reports that KB891711.exe is not executing after a Normal
Mode boot, then you are fine.
You can manually delete the other 891711 items if that makes you feel
better.
Deleting the folder with the two files will cause WU to offer the update
again. Ignore it.
--
Jack E. Martinelli 2002-05 MS MVP for Shell/User / DTS
Help us help you: http://www.dts-L.org/goodpost.htm

http://www.microsoft.com/athome/se [...] fault.aspx
In Memorium: Alex Nichol
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp [...] ichol.mspx
Your cooperation is very appreciated.
------
"MLD" <MLD@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:6Tj_d.7210$aS5.1986@trndny05...
>
> "N. Miller" <anonymous@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1ca282ccc08c4aa498a6e2@msnews.microsoft.com...
> > In article <556AB32E-C158-4641-90EA-79B390B4AD0E@microsoft.com>,
> =?Utf-8?B?
> > Q2F0YUJpcmQ2Mg==?= says...
> >
> > > So far, no blue screens! Tho, I did go to Windows Update and tried to
> > > re-download the security patch, but can't because--even after
> uninstalling
> > > it--the scan ignores my uninstall and the Update History page still
> shows a
> > > successful download of that patch! Ack! So annoying. But, then
again,
> if
> > > the patch is so damaging to WinME, do I really NEED it? I have, and
> run,
> > > Norton Internet Security 2004 with Live Update--plus I update DAILY!
> >
> > If you didn't get the program files out of the folder they installed to,
> > Windows Update will find them, and declare your system to be current.
For
> > Windows Me, C:\WINDOWS\SYTEM\KB891711; you will find two files there:
> > Q891711.EXE and Q891711.DLL. The installation also creates four registry
> > keys; all of which have "891711" in them.
> >
> > --
> > Norman
>
> Excellent info. I used Add/Remove to get rid of KB891711, however, the
> KB891711 folder with the two files mentioned in you post are in the
> windows/system folder. Also, a search of the registry for KB891711 found
a
> couple of them. Do I understand correctly that to get completely rid of
> this patch/update I can delete all of these findings--the kb891711
> folder/files and the registry references?
> MLD
>
>

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsme.general,microsoft.public.windowsupdate (More info?)

In article <e$2RVQvKFHA.904@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl>, Jack E Martinelli says...

> Norman, have you tested whether just renaming the two file's extensions, to
> file_name.old, for example will permit Windows Update to reoffer the
> "patch"?

Yes. I had changed the extensions at one point. If they are not .exe and
..dll then Windows Update does not find them, and offers the patch again.

--
Norman
~Win dain a lotica, En vai tu ri, Si lo ta
~Fin dein a loluca, En dragu a sei lain
~Vi fa-ru les shutai am, En riga-lint

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsme.general,microsoft.public.windowsupdate (More info?)

Thank you very much.
--
Jack E. Martinelli 2002-05 MS MVP for Shell/User / DTS
Help us help you: http://www.dts-L.org/goodpost.htm

http://www.microsoft.com/athome/se [...] fault.aspx
In Memorium: Alex Nichol
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp [...] ichol.mspx
Your cooperation is very appreciated.
------
"N. Miller" <anonymous@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ca3c2cdacafc59998a6e6@msnews.microsoft.com...
> In article <e$2RVQvKFHA.904@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl>, Jack E Martinelli
says...
>
> > Norman, have you tested whether just renaming the two file's extensions,
to
> > file_name.old, for example will permit Windows Update to reoffer the
> > "patch"?
>
> Yes. I had changed the extensions at one point. If they are not .exe and
> .dll then Windows Update does not find them, and offers the patch again.
>
> --
> Norman
> ~Win dain a lotica, En vai tu ri, Si lo ta
> ~Fin dein a loluca, En dragu a sei lain
> ~Vi fa-ru les shutai am, En riga-lint

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsme.general,microsoft.public.windowsupdate (More info?)

Mike:

Let's see, I have a Gateway Performance 1000 Pentium 3, 1 GHz PC purchased
in April 2001 with Intel(R) 82815 Graphics Controller (168 pin) with driver
version 4.13.01.2843.

I think that's all correct, though I don't speak/write/understand Binary
languages--most of the stuff I see on my PC may as well be Greek! It's all
in code--and there's no "help" file that will decipher it. I just know that
I no longer have the problem after I uninstalled the "update."

So, now I'm just waiting for Microsoft to fix the problem--if they will.
I'm not too worried since I have Norton Internet Security.

--CataBird

"Mike M" wrote:

> The patch isn't as such damaging to Win Me but rather causes major
> problems such as you are seeing for certain video card/video driver
> combinations.
>
> A couple of questions if I may. What video card/chip does your PC have
> and what driver version do you have installed. You will find this
> information at System Properties | Device Manager. Also what is the make,
> model and speed of your processor, that is AMD or Intel, etc.
>
> Regards,
> --
> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp [...] ichol.mspx
> In memory of a very dear friend, Windows MVP Alex Nichol
>
> Mike Maltby MS-MVP
> mike.maltby@gmail.com
>
>
> CataBird62 <CataBird@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
>
> > Very interesting, all.
> >
> > This is the problem I am currently having after downloading that same
> > WinME security update last Friday (3/11). I kept getting blue screen
> > (Windows) error messages (crashes requiring restarts) while online,
> > then even before getting online! I uninstalled it today, then ran
> > "msconfig" and unselected "StartUp Group" items (in Selective
> > Startup), restarted my PC, and did some puter maint (Disk cleanup,
> > ScanDisk, and Disk Defrag). Then I went into msconfig again and
> > re-selected startup group items in Selective Startup again (I always
> > run my pc on selective startup--too many hookups when I use "Normal"
> > startup), and restarted my PC again.
> >
> > So far, no blue screens! Tho, I did go to Windows Update and tried to
> > re-download the security patch, but can't because--even after
> > uninstalling it--the scan ignores my uninstall and the Update History
> > page still shows a successful download of that patch! Ack! So
> > annoying. But, then again, if the patch is so damaging to WinME, do
> > I really NEED it? I have, and run, Norton Internet Security 2004
> > with Live Update--plus I update DAILY!
>
>