Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

What is a good uninterruptible power supply unit for the Asus P4800E-Deluxe.
I want to pick up a good one and avoid frying my P4 3.2 and other components
during the many summer brownouts around here.
I have 8 hard drives, 2 dvd drives and a 5550W PS.

Jimbo

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

First, there are 3 major classes of "SOHO" UPS.

1. Basic - a relay is used to switch to standby when the power fails.
Minimal if any protection against surges, none against bown outs (voltage
droops).
Here, the mains powers a battery charger when needed and flows straight to
the computer normally - surges will run straight through unless there are
surge suppressors added in the design. When a fail occurs, the relay simply
switches in a power converter to run off the batteries. The time to switch
is critical - too slow and your computer will crash. The inverter is usually
crude - square wave output with poor power characteristics. Not really that
useful.

2. Better - faster switching. May have proper surge protection etc. Perhaps
sine wave output. These are a bit dearer than those above, but usually quite
less expensive than the next.

3. Best - Output power runs off the inverter full time. Mains powers battery
charger full time. Surges are suppressed, but if big may go into the charger
and are further suppressed by it and the huge capacitance of the battery,
but excellent isolation as output runs through its own inverter from the
battery. These systems may have square wave output, but usually have sine
wave and better quality output. Most expensive, but best to get. These UPS
tend to have excellent surge and brown out suppression with no switch time
problems since there is no switching.

A good fast switching UPS is fine for many situations, but if you want peace
of mind then get the True Online type. Often the Square vs. Sine wave output
just doesn't matter too much. Avoid running peripherals of a UPS you just do
not need in a power fail scenarion - Printers, possibly Monitors, consider
LCD monitors for lower power consumption ==> better run time.

Do not trust cheapo surge suppressors - many have a life of ONE surge! Get a
lightning rod if you are in a risky area, and do not forget about surges
through telco lines.(sisters house got hit by a strike on teleco lines down
the road).

It is the Back up ability (run time at full rated load or run time at the
load you have) , Surge and Brown Out along with Switch speeds (for non True
Online UPS) that are the measures to be satisfied with. If in doubt, test on
your computer - simulate several power failures and check the PC stays up.

Take manufacturers claims with a grain of salt - use google and check
reviews. There are many 'domestic retail' el-cheapo brands that I would not
touch ever. Be picky & research.

Make sure you get a big enough UPS - I usually size them to use no more
than 60% of power rating (real ratings). IE buy 1.5 x or more than what your
computer needs max.

Make sure you get an auto shutdown interface & software. Google on what
people think of the s/w. Some is shyte. I have put in some MPC (? French)
ups recently & the s/w is really good as are the UPS. APC have been around
for a while. Some vendors web sites have online UPS calculators so give em a
go - they tend to over estimate a bit.

HTH




"jimbo" <jimmy7forever@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:_dqdndI8GrmcM9nfRVn-2A@comcast.com...
> What is a good uninterruptible power supply unit for the Asus
> P4800E-Deluxe. I want to pick up a good one and avoid frying my P4 3.2 and
> other components during the many summer brownouts around here.
> I have 8 hard drives, 2 dvd drives and a 5550W PS.
>
> Jimbo
>

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 19:34:10 -0500, in <alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus>,
"jimbo" <jimmy7forever@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> What is a good uninterruptible power supply unit for the Asus
> P4800E-Deluxe. I want to pick up a good one and avoid frying my P4 3.2 and
> other components during the many summer brownouts around here.
[snip]

If poor-quality AC power (as opposed to simple power *failures*) is a concern
-- as well it should be -- then the *minimum* functionality you should accept
is what is commonly called "Line Interactive" (a marketing-ese term for
full-time voltage regulation, usually combined with some degree of noise
filtering and surge suppression). These types of units (such as the APC
"SmartUPS" series) are still "standby" supplies, in the strictest sense of
that term, since they still run the load off the AC mains under normal
circumstances and switch it to the inverter's output only if/when it senses a
serious power interruption; but they are nonetheless a HUGE improvement over
the rot-gut "Backup Power Supply" (as exemplified by the APC "BackUPS" and
"BackUPS Pro" series) which offer no significant degree of line conditioning.

Better still is a true on-line "double conversion" supply. These units use a
"bucket brigade" approach: The AC mains power is used *only* to run the
battery charger, which in turn constantly (re-)charges the batteries, which in
turn constantly power the inverter, which in turn *always* powers the load.
It should be intuitively obvious that this provides the greatest degree of
isolation between the power line (and the evils which lurk thereon) and the
protected equipment. In fact, this is the *only* type of unit which truly
deserves the term "Uninterruptable Power Supply". They used to be obscenely
expensive compared to similarly-sized line-interactive units, but that
situation is now much better... Decent double-conversion supplies can now be
had for perhaps 1.5-2X the typical line-interactive equivalent -- and IMCO,
they're worth every nickel.

> I have 8 hard drives, 2 dvd drives and a 5550W PS.
>
[snip]

ITYM "550W". But that's still a fairly hefty load, as desktop PCs go,
especially if you're using a CRT-based monitor, as opposed to an LCD
(remember, you'll need to power the monitor off the UPS too, in order to be
able to interact with the system during a power failure -- if only to initiate
an orderly shutdown). So choose your UPS capacity accordingly. While a
650-700VA unit might be "adequate", something in the 1KVA range will likely be
your best bet. Besides, in this context, bigger is almost always better
anyway (in terms of run-time with a given load, if nothing else); so don't
scrimp.

--

Jay T. Blocksom
--------------------------------
Appropriate Technology, Inc.
usenet02[at]appropriate-tech.net

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.
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Unsolicited advertising sent to this domain is expressly prohibited under
47 USC S227 and State Law. Violators are subject to prosecution.

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

A UPS from Mercury's first group is more than sufficient for
a computer. In fact, that "when a fail occurs, the relay
simply switches in a power converter to run off the batteries"
type UPS is also called a "computer grade" UPS. Those other
'group 3' UPSes cost on the order of $500+ to provide nothing
useful.

Learn what a power supply does. First 120 VAC passes
through line filters. Then 120 VAC is converted to 300 volts
DC. Virtually all noise, spikes, and surges are eliminated.
But your power supply provides more layers of protection. An
oscillator converts that hundreds of volts DC to an AC
voltage. Then voltage is filtered through a transformer -
galvanic isolation. The transformer output is again converted
to DC. Then that DC output is filtered but again. Then an
overvoltage protection circuit further eliminates excessive
spikes and noise. With so many layers of protection standard
in power supplies, then what does a UPS do? Typical UPS
provides less protection than what already exists inside a
standard power supply - even 30 years ago.

Those who recommend UPSes don't even discuss all this
existing protection and often don't even know what a power
supply does.

Those standard layers of protection in a power supply is
even why a square wave output (power that can harm some small
electric motors and power strip protectors) still does not
harm a computer. Computer power supplies are that resilient -
assuming a bean counter did not select the supply.

After so much hype about UPS protection, the bottom line
remains: a UPS only protects data from blackouts and
brownouts. Anything on power cord that protects hardware is
required and already inside that power supply. Look at those
so many layers of protection.

But power supply does even MORE. A power supply must
provide 100% power to every computer peripheral even when AC
mains voltage drops so low that incandescent lamps are at only
40% intensity. Brownout is also called a voltage sag. Just
another little fact that was standard even 30 years ago, and
yet routinely forgotten today to hype UPSes. That UPS is for
extreme brownouts (sags) and blackouts (no voltage).

Does that UPSes provide better surge protection? We always
demand numbers. The entire surge protection circuit is
measured in joules. How many joules in that UPS? Identical
circuit is also inside power strip protectors. Some
undersized power strip protectors have even more joules.
Why? Don't take my word for it. Look up the joules number
yourself.

Others will forget to cite numbers when making protection
claims. Bottom line: claims about hardware protection from a
plug-in UPS are mythical. All UPSes claim surge protection.
Then forget to mention how little that protection really is.
Both UPS and power strip have same undersized protection
circuit - as measured by the same parameter - joules. Worse
still: any protector damaged by a surge is ineffective - a
waste of good money. There is no protection from a "have a
life of ONE surge" protector. Yet even less joules of
protection is provided by the UPS.

If a power strip or UPS claims to protect from a surge that
typically does not do damage, then why would they bother to
properly size the protector? Notice that some "one time and
throw away" power strip protectors may have more joules.
Joules is a ballpark measurement of protector life
expectancy. Ineffective protectors minimize joules to claim
protection. They tell half truths so that others will
*assume*. 'Hype' is the protection provided by plug-in
UPSes.

Switchover time for a UPS: If a UPS switched over to
batteries too slowly, then the computer power supply is
defective. Again, specs even from Intel say the power supply
must provide interrupted power to computer; even when the UPS
takes a longest time to switchover. Again, review those
numbers yourself. Don't take my word for it.

Where is the real weakness in computer protection?
Repeatedly, everything necessary to protect at the power cord
must be inside a computer's power supply. This assumes a
computer assembler had sufficient knowledge to buy the
minimally acceptable power supply. Assumes he was not a bean
counter. Many computer assemblers could not even comprehend
what Mercury posted let alone list essential power supply
functions standard even 30 years ago. And Mercury did not
even post useful numbers that intimidate many computer
assemblers.

Asian manufacturers discovered a lucrative market of
technically naive computer assemblers. They dump inferior
power supplies into this market for greater profit. A
minimally acceptable supply must provide a long list of
numerical specs (such as how long power can be interrupted).
A minimally acceptable power supply must also cost at least
$60 full retail. So instead, many hype a UPS to *fix* missing
power supply functions?

Again, all minimally acceptable power supplies include
essential functions to protect a motherboard. Any function
effective on the power cord must be inside that supply. But
the rare and typically destructive transient can overwhelm
this internal protection. IOW an electrically 'literate'
computer expert appreciates why a less expensive and so
necessary 'whole house' protector, as part of a protection
'system', protects a computer. Again, that plug-in UPS
provides no such protection AND obviously cannot. The UPS has
no critically necessary 'less than 10 foot' connection to
earth ground. This alone indicates a glaring deficiency. So
instead, they even forget to mention the typically destructive
transient.

In summary: For effective protection of computer components
so that even a power supply failure does not damage
motherboard, disk drive, Ram, etc; the power supply must
contain functions that were even standard 30 years ago.
Functions so often missing in discounted power supplies.

For effective protection of data from blackouts and
brownouts, we install a plug-in UPS. Blackouts and brownouts
do not harm hardware - except where myths are widely promoted.

So that a typically destructive transient does not overwhelm
the computer's internal protection, we install and properly
earth a 'whole house' protector. It also protects other
appliances such as a clock radio, bathroom and kitchen GFCI,
smoke detector, dimmer switch, dishwasher and washing machine,
furnace controls, etc. Spend less money per appliance for
effective hardware protection. That means a minimally
sufficient power supply AND the 'whole house' protector.
$hundreds more for a UPS that provides no effective
motherboard protection? How does that make sense?

jimbo wrote:
> What is a good uninterruptible power supply unit for the Asus
> P4800E-Deluxe. I want to pick up a good one and avoid frying m
> P4 3.2 and other components during the many summer brownouts
> around here. I have 8 hard drives, 2 dvd drives and a 5550W PS.

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

I think you have a tad too much faith in the computer PSU.
The whole point of a good UPS is to remove doubt about the quality of power
available that would otherwise potentially damage the computer PSU.

Surges in the form of lightning are of such a huge potential magnitude that
some times the only solution is to unplug from the mains and move the
equipment away from conductors. I sometimes shutdown and pull the plug on my
own servers when a major electrical storm passes by.

It is the intermediate, unpredictable events that warrant UPS and surge
protection. The medium sized spikes that will fry the PSU and potentially
all the componentry in the computer. The power fails are the obvious
anomolies, as are the repeated failures. Continuity of service is only one
facit. ability to service is another.

I have come across some horrid scenarios: one a stock broker with 24 x 7
systems blown up because the earth wire was disconnected while attending to
an unrelated fault. There is no point in telling me what they did wrong - I
came in after the event.

Before all else, the purchaser really should try to understand what they are
buying, why, and why not buy it in a retail shop (how me a retailer that
sells good UPS). If the purchase is large then get and independant advisor
that knows his/her stuff.



"w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4248808D.A8E9AE72@hotmail.com...
> A UPS from Mercury's first group is more than sufficient for
> a computer. In fact, that "when a fail occurs, the relay
> simply switches in a power converter to run off the batteries"
> type UPS is also called a "computer grade" UPS. Those other
> 'group 3' UPSes cost on the order of $500+ to provide nothing
> useful.
>
> Learn what a power supply does. First 120 VAC passes
> through line filters. Then 120 VAC is converted to 300 volts
> DC. Virtually all noise, spikes, and surges are eliminated.
> But your power supply provides more layers of protection. An
> oscillator converts that hundreds of volts DC to an AC
> voltage. Then voltage is filtered through a transformer -
> galvanic isolation. The transformer output is again converted
> to DC. Then that DC output is filtered but again. Then an
> overvoltage protection circuit further eliminates excessive
> spikes and noise. With so many layers of protection standard
> in power supplies, then what does a UPS do? Typical UPS
> provides less protection than what already exists inside a
> standard power supply - even 30 years ago.
>
> Those who recommend UPSes don't even discuss all this
> existing protection and often don't even know what a power
> supply does.
>
> Those standard layers of protection in a power supply is
> even why a square wave output (power that can harm some small
> electric motors and power strip protectors) still does not
> harm a computer. Computer power supplies are that resilient -
> assuming a bean counter did not select the supply.
>
> After so much hype about UPS protection, the bottom line
> remains: a UPS only protects data from blackouts and
> brownouts. Anything on power cord that protects hardware is
> required and already inside that power supply. Look at those
> so many layers of protection.
>
> But power supply does even MORE. A power supply must
> provide 100% power to every computer peripheral even when AC
> mains voltage drops so low that incandescent lamps are at only
> 40% intensity. Brownout is also called a voltage sag. Just
> another little fact that was standard even 30 years ago, and
> yet routinely forgotten today to hype UPSes. That UPS is for
> extreme brownouts (sags) and blackouts (no voltage).
>
> Does that UPSes provide better surge protection? We always
> demand numbers. The entire surge protection circuit is
> measured in joules. How many joules in that UPS? Identical
> circuit is also inside power strip protectors. Some
> undersized power strip protectors have even more joules.
> Why? Don't take my word for it. Look up the joules number
> yourself.
>
> Others will forget to cite numbers when making protection
> claims. Bottom line: claims about hardware protection from a
> plug-in UPS are mythical. All UPSes claim surge protection.
> Then forget to mention how little that protection really is.
> Both UPS and power strip have same undersized protection
> circuit - as measured by the same parameter - joules. Worse
> still: any protector damaged by a surge is ineffective - a
> waste of good money. There is no protection from a "have a
> life of ONE surge" protector. Yet even less joules of
> protection is provided by the UPS.
>
> If a power strip or UPS claims to protect from a surge that
> typically does not do damage, then why would they bother to
> properly size the protector? Notice that some "one time and
> throw away" power strip protectors may have more joules.
> Joules is a ballpark measurement of protector life
> expectancy. Ineffective protectors minimize joules to claim
> protection. They tell half truths so that others will
> *assume*. 'Hype' is the protection provided by plug-in
> UPSes.
>
> Switchover time for a UPS: If a UPS switched over to
> batteries too slowly, then the computer power supply is
> defective. Again, specs even from Intel say the power supply
> must provide interrupted power to computer; even when the UPS
> takes a longest time to switchover. Again, review those
> numbers yourself. Don't take my word for it.
>
> Where is the real weakness in computer protection?
> Repeatedly, everything necessary to protect at the power cord
> must be inside a computer's power supply. This assumes a
> computer assembler had sufficient knowledge to buy the
> minimally acceptable power supply. Assumes he was not a bean
> counter. Many computer assemblers could not even comprehend
> what Mercury posted let alone list essential power supply
> functions standard even 30 years ago. And Mercury did not
> even post useful numbers that intimidate many computer
> assemblers.
>
> Asian manufacturers discovered a lucrative market of
> technically naive computer assemblers. They dump inferior
> power supplies into this market for greater profit. A
> minimally acceptable supply must provide a long list of
> numerical specs (such as how long power can be interrupted).
> A minimally acceptable power supply must also cost at least
> $60 full retail. So instead, many hype a UPS to *fix* missing
> power supply functions?
>
> Again, all minimally acceptable power supplies include
> essential functions to protect a motherboard. Any function
> effective on the power cord must be inside that supply. But
> the rare and typically destructive transient can overwhelm
> this internal protection. IOW an electrically 'literate'
> computer expert appreciates why a less expensive and so
> necessary 'whole house' protector, as part of a protection
> 'system', protects a computer. Again, that plug-in UPS
> provides no such protection AND obviously cannot. The UPS has
> no critically necessary 'less than 10 foot' connection to
> earth ground. This alone indicates a glaring deficiency. So
> instead, they even forget to mention the typically destructive
> transient.
>
> In summary: For effective protection of computer components
> so that even a power supply failure does not damage
> motherboard, disk drive, Ram, etc; the power supply must
> contain functions that were even standard 30 years ago.
> Functions so often missing in discounted power supplies.
>
> For effective protection of data from blackouts and
> brownouts, we install a plug-in UPS. Blackouts and brownouts
> do not harm hardware - except where myths are widely promoted.
>
> So that a typically destructive transient does not overwhelm
> the computer's internal protection, we install and properly
> earth a 'whole house' protector. It also protects other
> appliances such as a clock radio, bathroom and kitchen GFCI,
> smoke detector, dimmer switch, dishwasher and washing machine,
> furnace controls, etc. Spend less money per appliance for
> effective hardware protection. That means a minimally
> sufficient power supply AND the 'whole house' protector.
> $hundreds more for a UPS that provides no effective
> motherboard protection? How does that make sense?
>
> jimbo wrote:
>> What is a good uninterruptible power supply unit for the Asus
>> P4800E-Deluxe. I want to pick up a good one and avoid frying m
>> P4 3.2 and other components during the many summer brownouts
>> around here. I have 8 hard drives, 2 dvd drives and a 5550W PS.

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

The $multi-million telephone switching computer also
disconnect with every approaching thunderstorm. Millions of
dollars connected to overhead wires everywhere in town. Since
effective protection from lightning is not possible, then they
must disconnect? OR, some people recommend ineffective UPSes
for lightning protection. Why does the telco provide service
during every lightning storm? Because 'whole house'
protection techniques are that effective. Protection that a
plug-in UPS cannot provide. I never unplug during
thunderstorms. I follow thunderstorms on the computer - in
real time. I don't worry about lightning damage because I
don't depend on mythical protection from a plug-in UPS.

By disparaging the protection inside a power supply, Mercury
then says UPS protection as even worse. Numbers were
provided. UPS has how few joules? Again, the numbers. Most
every UPS connects its load (the computer) directly to AC
mains when not in battery backup mode. How fast does that
UPS relay disconnect? Milliseconds. Meanwhile, destructive,
microsecond transients have long since done damage. 300
consecutive and destructive transients could pass through
before that UPS started to isolate the load. Where is the
protection? More damning numbers.

Yes, UPS claims protection. Then we look at the numbers.
Near zero protection is still protection. Just no effective.
And that is the point. Without numbers, then junk science
reasoning will claim UPS protection.

Any protection that works on the power cord is already
inside a power supply. One need only learn industry standard
numbers or read the long list of numeric specs (a hint for
identifying 'good' verses 'dumped' power supplies). Power
supplies contain effective protection. But that protection may
be overwhelmed by major transients (ie lightning). Transients
passes right through UPS - unimpeded. But a 'whole house'
protector earths before a destructive transient can overwhelm
the power supply. So what is a UPS doing? Battery backup in
case of blackouts or extreme brownouts - nothing more.

To claim otherwise, one must provide numbers. For example,
how many 'joules' inside a plug-in UPS? Mercury did not even
provide that number. Where is the earth ground? No earth
ground means no effective protection. Mercury also does not
even mention earthing. Why does that plug-in UPS also avoid
discussing earthing?

Many previously posted reasons demonstrated that UPS does
not provide effective protection. Insufficient joules.
Relay inside UPS cannot switch fast enough. Power supply
already has numerous layers of protection (starting with a
line filter and ending with an overvoltage protector) whereas
the UPS only connects that power supply direct to AC mains.
UPS output so 'dirty' that it may even damage electric motors
whereas computer power supply is so resilient as to even make
'dirty' UPS electricity irrelevant. Power supply must work
100% even when incandescent lamps are at only 40% intensity
(voltage sag or brownout). $100 for a UPS compared to $1 per
appliance for the effective 'whole house' protector.

A new reason why that UPS does not provide effective
protection. The destructive transient does not get to
motherboard through power supply (obviously). It uses the
green safety ground wire to bypass UPS; connects transient
direct to motherboard. Those recommending the UPS forget to
mention that UPS transient protector circuits (measured in
joules) shunt a destructive transient into that bypass wire.
What does that transient seek? Earth ground. The UPS
provides a new destructive path to earth via the motherboard -
the bypass wire. What kind of protection is that? Again,
ineffective. One more reason why the 'whole house' protector
is required and why the plug-in UPS is so ineffective.

Claims of UPS protection were made without numbers.
Mercury is encouraged to provide numbers. Start, for example,
with joules. Start, for example, with numbers listed in specs
from that UPS manufacturer. Why do UPS manufacturer specs
have so few numbers? They provide numbers they are required
to provide - such as joules. Their specifications completely
ignore another typically destructive transient so that
consumers will *assume* total protection. Missing numbers.
More damning facts.

The 'whole house' protector does provide protection from all
types of transients. A protector is only as effective as its
earth ground. 'Whole house' protectors are earthed; building
wide UPSes are earthed; plug-in UPSes are *not* earthed.
Furthermore, the 'whole house' protector also costs tens of
times less money.

We don't unplug for thunderstorms. We install effective
protection not found in plug-in UPSes. Protection defined by
the most critical protection system component: single point
earth ground. Effective protection inside a power supply is
not overwhelmed when properly earthed protector is installed.

Mercury wrote:
> I think you have a tad too much faith in the computer PSU.
> The whole point of a good UPS is to remove doubt about the quality
> of power available that would otherwise potentially damage the
> computer PSU.
>
> Surges in the form of lightning are of such a huge potential
> magnitude that some times the only solution is to unplug from the
> mains and move the equipment away from conductors. I sometimes
> shutdown and pull the plug on my own servers when a major
> electrical storm passes by.
>
> It is the intermediate, unpredictable events that warrant UPS and surge
> protection. The medium sized spikes that will fry the PSU and potentially
> all the componentry in the computer. The power fails are the obvious
> anomolies, as are the repeated failures. Continuity of service is only one
> facit. ability to service is another.
>
> I have come across some horrid scenarios: one a stock broker with 24 x 7
> systems blown up because the earth wire was disconnected while attending to
> an unrelated fault. There is no point in telling me what they did wrong - I
> came in after the event.
>
> Before all else, the purchaser really should try to understand what they are
> buying, why, and why not buy it in a retail shop (how me a retailer that
> sells good UPS). If the purchase is large then get and independant advisor
> that knows his/her stuff.
>
> "w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4248808D.A8E9AE72@hotmail.com...
> > A UPS from Mercury's first group is more than sufficient for
> > a computer. In fact, that "when a fail occurs, the relay
> > simply switches in a power converter to run off the batteries"
> > type UPS is also called a "computer grade" UPS. Those other
> > 'group 3' UPSes cost on the order of $500+ to provide nothing
> > useful.
> >
> > Learn what a power supply does. First 120 VAC passes
> > through line filters. Then 120 VAC is converted to 300 volts
> > DC. Virtually all noise, spikes, and surges are eliminated.
> > But your power supply provides more layers of protection. An
> > oscillator converts that hundreds of volts DC to an AC
> > voltage. Then voltage is filtered through a transformer -
> > galvanic isolation. The transformer output is again converted
> > to DC. Then that DC output is filtered but again. Then an
> > overvoltage protection circuit further eliminates excessive
> > spikes and noise. With so many layers of protection standard
> > in power supplies, then what does a UPS do? Typical UPS
> > provides less protection than what already exists inside a
> > standard power supply - even 30 years ago.
> >
> > Those who recommend UPSes don't even discuss all this
> > existing protection and often don't even know what a power
> > supply does.
> >
> > Those standard layers of protection in a power supply is
> > even why a square wave output (power that can harm some small
> > electric motors and power strip protectors) still does not
> > harm a computer. Computer power supplies are that resilient -
> > assuming a bean counter did not select the supply.
> >
> > After so much hype about UPS protection, the bottom line
> > remains: a UPS only protects data from blackouts and
> > brownouts. Anything on power cord that protects hardware is
> > required and already inside that power supply. Look at those
> > so many layers of protection.
> >
> > But power supply does even MORE. A power supply must
> > provide 100% power to every computer peripheral even when AC
> > mains voltage drops so low that incandescent lamps are at only
> > 40% intensity. Brownout is also called a voltage sag. Just
> > another little fact that was standard even 30 years ago, and
> > yet routinely forgotten today to hype UPSes. That UPS is for
> > extreme brownouts (sags) and blackouts (no voltage).
> >
> > Does that UPSes provide better surge protection? We always
> > demand numbers. The entire surge protection circuit is
> > measured in joules. How many joules in that UPS? Identical
> > circuit is also inside power strip protectors. Some
> > undersized power strip protectors have even more joules.
> > Why? Don't take my word for it. Look up the joules number
> > yourself.
> >
> > Others will forget to cite numbers when making protection
> > claims. Bottom line: claims about hardware protection from a
> > plug-in UPS are mythical. All UPSes claim surge protection.
> > Then forget to mention how little that protection really is.
> > Both UPS and power strip have same undersized protection
> > circuit - as measured by the same parameter - joules. Worse
> > still: any protector damaged by a surge is ineffective - a
> > waste of good money. There is no protection from a "have a
> > life of ONE surge" protector. Yet even less joules of
> > protection is provided by the UPS.
> >
> > If a power strip or UPS claims to protect from a surge that
> > typically does not do damage, then why would they bother to
> > properly size the protector? Notice that some "one time and
> > throw away" power strip protectors may have more joules.
> > Joules is a ballpark measurement of protector life
> > expectancy. Ineffective protectors minimize joules to claim
> > protection. They tell half truths so that others will
> > *assume*. 'Hype' is the protection provided by plug-in
> > UPSes.
> >
> > Switchover time for a UPS: If a UPS switched over to
> > batteries too slowly, then the computer power supply is
> > defective. Again, specs even from Intel say the power supply
> > must provide interrupted power to computer; even when the UPS
> > takes a longest time to switchover. Again, review those
> > numbers yourself. Don't take my word for it.
> >
> > Where is the real weakness in computer protection?
> > Repeatedly, everything necessary to protect at the power cord
> > must be inside a computer's power supply. This assumes a
> > computer assembler had sufficient knowledge to buy the
> > minimally acceptable power supply. Assumes he was not a bean
> > counter. Many computer assemblers could not even comprehend
> > what Mercury posted let alone list essential power supply
> > functions standard even 30 years ago. And Mercury did not
> > even post useful numbers that intimidate many computer
> > assemblers.
> >
> > Asian manufacturers discovered a lucrative market of
> > technically naive computer assemblers. They dump inferior
> > power supplies into this market for greater profit. A
> > minimally acceptable supply must provide a long list of
> > numerical specs (such as how long power can be interrupted).
> > A minimally acceptable power supply must also cost at least
> > $60 full retail. So instead, many hype a UPS to *fix* missing
> > power supply functions?
> >
> > Again, all minimally acceptable power supplies include
> > essential functions to protect a motherboard. Any function
> > effective on the power cord must be inside that supply. But
> > the rare and typically destructive transient can overwhelm
> > this internal protection. IOW an electrically 'literate'
> > computer expert appreciates why a less expensive and so
> > necessary 'whole house' protector, as part of a protection
> > 'system', protects a computer. Again, that plug-in UPS
> > provides no such protection AND obviously cannot. The UPS has
> > no critically necessary 'less than 10 foot' connection to
> > earth ground. This alone indicates a glaring deficiency. So
> > instead, they even forget to mention the typically destructive
> > transient.
> >
> > In summary: For effective protection of computer components
> > so that even a power supply failure does not damage
> > motherboard, disk drive, Ram, etc; the power supply must
> > contain functions that were even standard 30 years ago.
> > Functions so often missing in discounted power supplies.
> >
> > For effective protection of data from blackouts and
> > brownouts, we install a plug-in UPS. Blackouts and brownouts
> > do not harm hardware - except where myths are widely promoted.
> >
> > So that a typically destructive transient does not overwhelm
> > the computer's internal protection, we install and properly
> > earth a 'whole house' protector. It also protects other
> > appliances such as a clock radio, bathroom and kitchen GFCI,
> > smoke detector, dimmer switch, dishwasher and washing machine,
> > furnace controls, etc. Spend less money per appliance for
> > effective hardware protection. That means a minimally
> > sufficient power supply AND the 'whole house' protector.
> > $hundreds more for a UPS that provides no effective
> > motherboard protection? How does that make sense?
> >
> > jimbo wrote:
> >> What is a good uninterruptible power supply unit for the Asus
> >> P4800E-Deluxe. I want to pick up a good one and avoid frying m
> >> P4 3.2 and other components during the many summer brownouts
> >> around here. I have 8 hard drives, 2 dvd drives and a 5550W PS.

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

Reread my original post - in that I did not recommend the basic or
intermediate UPS's, only the true online type in which all power runs across
the battery which is isolated from the mains - somewhat - by the charger
circuit.

Where are you? US? Well earthing standards there are different to elsewhere.
Here it is illegal to have an incorrectly wired business or house & these
standards are enforced right thru to the earth wire to the UPS and computer
PSU. Last I knew, only double insulated devices were allowed to not have an
earth wire. These days RCD devices are common (but thats irrelevant). In the
AT computer days you were required here to be a certified electrician before
you could be employed servicing computers due to mains wiring and earthing
requirements.

Certainly the # of joules is important, but it is not as there is always
potential for a larger surge in which case that filter / PSU / UPS /
anything else is no use whatsoever. It comes down to what you can afford to
prepare for.

I always recommend lightning rods and prompt for double checks on the health
of building earth systems - they can get damaged and when they are it is too
late when you find out the hard way. (24x7 systems).

Invariably it comes down to regional probability, requirements, and budget +
Knowledge.

Again, I will state *not* to trust the computer PSU from an electrical surge
perspective. Don't forget that a switch mode PSU is like a tight rope
walker - all is hunky dory so long as there isn't an earthquake. Computer
PSU's are the most fallable part of acomputer next to the HDD. taking 110 or
230v, rectifying it, bunging it through a high voltage / high frequency
transister osicillatorinto a compact torroidal transformer, then 'dumping'
out often raw power via a simple diode / capacitor / sometimes inductor
circuit is crude, however there is a lot of complexity in the controller
electronics as you no doubt know - providing a feedback loop that is
responsive while catering for short circuits etc. is actually one of the
most overlooked examples of (usually) quality design, construction, and
componentry. With all this advanced design and in reality great variety in
quality of performance, I *would not* put any more trust into a computer PSU
than risks indicate one should ! Actually there is no room for trust...

I have read many stats on Computer PSU's but never noticed mention of surge
protection - joules or not.






"w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:42498FB5.DC81FD1@hotmail.com...
> The $multi-million telephone switching computer also
> disconnect with every approaching thunderstorm. Millions of
> dollars connected to overhead wires everywhere in town. Since
> effective protection from lightning is not possible, then they
> must disconnect? OR, some people recommend ineffective UPSes
> for lightning protection. Why does the telco provide service
> during every lightning storm? Because 'whole house'
> protection techniques are that effective. Protection that a
> plug-in UPS cannot provide. I never unplug during
> thunderstorms. I follow thunderstorms on the computer - in
> real time. I don't worry about lightning damage because I
> don't depend on mythical protection from a plug-in UPS.
>
> By disparaging the protection inside a power supply, Mercury
> then says UPS protection as even worse. Numbers were
> provided. UPS has how few joules? Again, the numbers. Most
> every UPS connects its load (the computer) directly to AC
> mains when not in battery backup mode. How fast does that
> UPS relay disconnect? Milliseconds. Meanwhile, destructive,
> microsecond transients have long since done damage. 300
> consecutive and destructive transients could pass through
> before that UPS started to isolate the load. Where is the
> protection? More damning numbers.
>
> Yes, UPS claims protection. Then we look at the numbers.
> Near zero protection is still protection. Just no effective.
> And that is the point. Without numbers, then junk science
> reasoning will claim UPS protection.
>
> Any protection that works on the power cord is already
> inside a power supply. One need only learn industry standard
> numbers or read the long list of numeric specs (a hint for
> identifying 'good' verses 'dumped' power supplies). Power
> supplies contain effective protection. But that protection may
> be overwhelmed by major transients (ie lightning). Transients
> passes right through UPS - unimpeded. But a 'whole house'
> protector earths before a destructive transient can overwhelm
> the power supply. So what is a UPS doing? Battery backup in
> case of blackouts or extreme brownouts - nothing more.
>
> To claim otherwise, one must provide numbers. For example,
> how many 'joules' inside a plug-in UPS? Mercury did not even
> provide that number. Where is the earth ground? No earth
> ground means no effective protection. Mercury also does not
> even mention earthing. Why does that plug-in UPS also avoid
> discussing earthing?
>
> Many previously posted reasons demonstrated that UPS does
> not provide effective protection. Insufficient joules.
> Relay inside UPS cannot switch fast enough. Power supply
> already has numerous layers of protection (starting with a
> line filter and ending with an overvoltage protector) whereas
> the UPS only connects that power supply direct to AC mains.
> UPS output so 'dirty' that it may even damage electric motors
> whereas computer power supply is so resilient as to even make
> 'dirty' UPS electricity irrelevant. Power supply must work
> 100% even when incandescent lamps are at only 40% intensity
> (voltage sag or brownout). $100 for a UPS compared to $1 per
> appliance for the effective 'whole house' protector.
>
> A new reason why that UPS does not provide effective
> protection. The destructive transient does not get to
> motherboard through power supply (obviously). It uses the
> green safety ground wire to bypass UPS; connects transient
> direct to motherboard. Those recommending the UPS forget to
> mention that UPS transient protector circuits (measured in
> joules) shunt a destructive transient into that bypass wire.
> What does that transient seek? Earth ground. The UPS
> provides a new destructive path to earth via the motherboard -
> the bypass wire. What kind of protection is that? Again,
> ineffective. One more reason why the 'whole house' protector
> is required and why the plug-in UPS is so ineffective.
>
> Claims of UPS protection were made without numbers.
> Mercury is encouraged to provide numbers. Start, for example,
> with joules. Start, for example, with numbers listed in specs
> from that UPS manufacturer. Why do UPS manufacturer specs
> have so few numbers? They provide numbers they are required
> to provide - such as joules. Their specifications completely
> ignore another typically destructive transient so that
> consumers will *assume* total protection. Missing numbers.
> More damning facts.
>
> The 'whole house' protector does provide protection from all
> types of transients. A protector is only as effective as its
> earth ground. 'Whole house' protectors are earthed; building
> wide UPSes are earthed; plug-in UPSes are *not* earthed.
> Furthermore, the 'whole house' protector also costs tens of
> times less money.
>
> We don't unplug for thunderstorms. We install effective
> protection not found in plug-in UPSes. Protection defined by
> the most critical protection system component: single point
> earth ground. Effective protection inside a power supply is
> not overwhelmed when properly earthed protector is installed.
>
> Mercury wrote:
>> I think you have a tad too much faith in the computer PSU.
>> The whole point of a good UPS is to remove doubt about the quality
>> of power available that would otherwise potentially damage the
>> computer PSU.
>>
>> Surges in the form of lightning are of such a huge potential
>> magnitude that some times the only solution is to unplug from the
>> mains and move the equipment away from conductors. I sometimes
>> shutdown and pull the plug on my own servers when a major
>> electrical storm passes by.
>>
>> It is the intermediate, unpredictable events that warrant UPS and surge
>> protection. The medium sized spikes that will fry the PSU and potentially
>> all the componentry in the computer. The power fails are the obvious
>> anomolies, as are the repeated failures. Continuity of service is only
>> one
>> facit. ability to service is another.
>>
>> I have come across some horrid scenarios: one a stock broker with 24 x 7
>> systems blown up because the earth wire was disconnected while attending
>> to
>> an unrelated fault. There is no point in telling me what they did wrong -
>> I
>> came in after the event.
>>
>> Before all else, the purchaser really should try to understand what they
>> are
>> buying, why, and why not buy it in a retail shop (how me a retailer that
>> sells good UPS). If the purchase is large then get and independant
>> advisor
>> that knows his/her stuff.
>>
>> "w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:4248808D.A8E9AE72@hotmail.com...
>> > A UPS from Mercury's first group is more than sufficient for
>> > a computer. In fact, that "when a fail occurs, the relay
>> > simply switches in a power converter to run off the batteries"
>> > type UPS is also called a "computer grade" UPS. Those other
>> > 'group 3' UPSes cost on the order of $500+ to provide nothing
>> > useful.
>> >
>> > Learn what a power supply does. First 120 VAC passes
>> > through line filters. Then 120 VAC is converted to 300 volts
>> > DC. Virtually all noise, spikes, and surges are eliminated.
>> > But your power supply provides more layers of protection. An
>> > oscillator converts that hundreds of volts DC to an AC
>> > voltage. Then voltage is filtered through a transformer -
>> > galvanic isolation. The transformer output is again converted
>> > to DC. Then that DC output is filtered but again. Then an
>> > overvoltage protection circuit further eliminates excessive
>> > spikes and noise. With so many layers of protection standard
>> > in power supplies, then what does a UPS do? Typical UPS
>> > provides less protection than what already exists inside a
>> > standard power supply - even 30 years ago.
>> >
>> > Those who recommend UPSes don't even discuss all this
>> > existing protection and often don't even know what a power
>> > supply does.
>> >
>> > Those standard layers of protection in a power supply is
>> > even why a square wave output (power that can harm some small
>> > electric motors and power strip protectors) still does not
>> > harm a computer. Computer power supplies are that resilient -
>> > assuming a bean counter did not select the supply.
>> >
>> > After so much hype about UPS protection, the bottom line
>> > remains: a UPS only protects data from blackouts and
>> > brownouts. Anything on power cord that protects hardware is
>> > required and already inside that power supply. Look at those
>> > so many layers of protection.
>> >
>> > But power supply does even MORE. A power supply must
>> > provide 100% power to every computer peripheral even when AC
>> > mains voltage drops so low that incandescent lamps are at only
>> > 40% intensity. Brownout is also called a voltage sag. Just
>> > another little fact that was standard even 30 years ago, and
>> > yet routinely forgotten today to hype UPSes. That UPS is for
>> > extreme brownouts (sags) and blackouts (no voltage).
>> >
>> > Does that UPSes provide better surge protection? We always
>> > demand numbers. The entire surge protection circuit is
>> > measured in joules. How many joules in that UPS? Identical
>> > circuit is also inside power strip protectors. Some
>> > undersized power strip protectors have even more joules.
>> > Why? Don't take my word for it. Look up the joules number
>> > yourself.
>> >
>> > Others will forget to cite numbers when making protection
>> > claims. Bottom line: claims about hardware protection from a
>> > plug-in UPS are mythical. All UPSes claim surge protection.
>> > Then forget to mention how little that protection really is.
>> > Both UPS and power strip have same undersized protection
>> > circuit - as measured by the same parameter - joules. Worse
>> > still: any protector damaged by a surge is ineffective - a
>> > waste of good money. There is no protection from a "have a
>> > life of ONE surge" protector. Yet even less joules of
>> > protection is provided by the UPS.
>> >
>> > If a power strip or UPS claims to protect from a surge that
>> > typically does not do damage, then why would they bother to
>> > properly size the protector? Notice that some "one time and
>> > throw away" power strip protectors may have more joules.
>> > Joules is a ballpark measurement of protector life
>> > expectancy. Ineffective protectors minimize joules to claim
>> > protection. They tell half truths so that others will
>> > *assume*. 'Hype' is the protection provided by plug-in
>> > UPSes.
>> >
>> > Switchover time for a UPS: If a UPS switched over to
>> > batteries too slowly, then the computer power supply is
>> > defective. Again, specs even from Intel say the power supply
>> > must provide interrupted power to computer; even when the UPS
>> > takes a longest time to switchover. Again, review those
>> > numbers yourself. Don't take my word for it.
>> >
>> > Where is the real weakness in computer protection?
>> > Repeatedly, everything necessary to protect at the power cord
>> > must be inside a computer's power supply. This assumes a
>> > computer assembler had sufficient knowledge to buy the
>> > minimally acceptable power supply. Assumes he was not a bean
>> > counter. Many computer assemblers could not even comprehend
>> > what Mercury posted let alone list essential power supply
>> > functions standard even 30 years ago. And Mercury did not
>> > even post useful numbers that intimidate many computer
>> > assemblers.
>> >
>> > Asian manufacturers discovered a lucrative market of
>> > technically naive computer assemblers. They dump inferior
>> > power supplies into this market for greater profit. A
>> > minimally acceptable supply must provide a long list of
>> > numerical specs (such as how long power can be interrupted).
>> > A minimally acceptable power supply must also cost at least
>> > $60 full retail. So instead, many hype a UPS to *fix* missing
>> > power supply functions?
>> >
>> > Again, all minimally acceptable power supplies include
>> > essential functions to protect a motherboard. Any function
>> > effective on the power cord must be inside that supply. But
>> > the rare and typically destructive transient can overwhelm
>> > this internal protection. IOW an electrically 'literate'
>> > computer expert appreciates why a less expensive and so
>> > necessary 'whole house' protector, as part of a protection
>> > 'system', protects a computer. Again, that plug-in UPS
>> > provides no such protection AND obviously cannot. The UPS has
>> > no critically necessary 'less than 10 foot' connection to
>> > earth ground. This alone indicates a glaring deficiency. So
>> > instead, they even forget to mention the typically destructive
>> > transient.
>> >
>> > In summary: For effective protection of computer components
>> > so that even a power supply failure does not damage
>> > motherboard, disk drive, Ram, etc; the power supply must
>> > contain functions that were even standard 30 years ago.
>> > Functions so often missing in discounted power supplies.
>> >
>> > For effective protection of data from blackouts and
>> > brownouts, we install a plug-in UPS. Blackouts and brownouts
>> > do not harm hardware - except where myths are widely promoted.
>> >
>> > So that a typically destructive transient does not overwhelm
>> > the computer's internal protection, we install and properly
>> > earth a 'whole house' protector. It also protects other
>> > appliances such as a clock radio, bathroom and kitchen GFCI,
>> > smoke detector, dimmer switch, dishwasher and washing machine,
>> > furnace controls, etc. Spend less money per appliance for
>> > effective hardware protection. That means a minimally
>> > sufficient power supply AND the 'whole house' protector.
>> > $hundreds more for a UPS that provides no effective
>> > motherboard protection? How does that make sense?
>> >
>> > jimbo wrote:
>> >> What is a good uninterruptible power supply unit for the Asus
>> >> P4800E-Deluxe. I want to pick up a good one and avoid frying m
>> >> P4 3.2 and other components during the many summer brownouts
>> >> around here. I have 8 hard drives, 2 dvd drives and a 5550W PS.