Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

What's probably the life expectancy of my A7V333 motherboard if I take good
care of it? It has 2 years on it right now. I run the computer for the
most part constantly except when I leave town or do something with the
inside of the computer. Current MB temperature is at 30 C.

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

In article <URjEd.32449$3m6.5163@attbi_s51>, "Travis King"
<Anonymous@none.com> wrote:

> What's probably the life expectancy of my A7V333 motherboard if I take good
> care of it? It has 2 years on it right now. I run the computer for the
> most part constantly except when I leave town or do something with the
> inside of the computer. Current MB temperature is at 30 C.

If the case temp is not excessive, the electrolytic caps should
be good for 10 years. Solder joints under stress, could be
anyone's guess (more likely to happen with a P4 retail heatsink
and its high clamping forces).

In ten years, you can expect several PSU failures, and any one of
those PSU failures could damage the motherboard.

If you have a lot of lightning storms, or bad quality power,
that could influence how long the mobo lasts. Look carefully
at any modem, cable modem, ADSL wires etc, to see if there are
any protection devices to take a (nearby) lightning hit, before
it gets to the motherboard. For example, on a phone line, there
may be a carbon block at the entry point, and you could enhance
that by using a second protection device nearer the computer.
For the really paranoid, a wireless network would reduce the
wiring exposure to just the power lines. A real (>$1K purchase
price) UPS would reduce the risk of an AC power event from
getting you, and would help protect the PSU from getting
damaged. Cheap UPSes offer no protection at all, as they are
actually SPS (standby power supplies) - they are a "straight wire"
to power spikes, and the unit only cuts over to batteries if
the AC power dies for enough milliseconds.

On the motherboard itself, the Vcore circuit is the circuit under
the most stress. If the MOSFETs are cool to the touch, that is
a good sign. I've never read any MTBF estimates for switching
regulators on motherboards, so don't know whether they are
good for a 1 million hour MTBF or not.

Large BGA packages also have a rating, for solder joint
reliability. For example, a BGA with 750 pins, will last for
about 10 years, with a certain daily temperature variation.
From the Via web page:

* 552-pin BGA VT8366A North Bridge
* 376-pin BGA VT8233 South Bridge

so you have little risk of a failure there (caps will fail
first).

Handling the processor a lot (removal, regrease, reposition
heatsink) will cut into the life expectancy, if say the
processor gets cracked, and it happens to overload the Vcore
circuit. If the processor has the rubber bumpers on the top
of the chip, that will cut that risk a bit.

I would say your biggest exposure, is to external factors.

Paul

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

In article <URjEd.32449$3m6.5163@attbi_s51>, Anonymous@none.com says...
> What's probably the life expectancy of my A7V333 motherboard if I take good
> care of it? It has 2 years on it right now. I run the computer for the
> most part constantly except when I leave town or do something with the
> inside of the computer. Current MB temperature is at 30 C.

I have a number of computers that date back to 1977 that still run just
fine. I also have a couple Dual Celeron 500Mhz machines that run well
that are almost 5 years old (or older I think).

As long as you change the PSU when it gets old (fan starts slowing and
not cooling properly) and protect the system with a good UPS, and keep
the vents clean (and CPU fan) it will last a long time - there are no
moving parts on a motherboard - you may need a new floppy, CD-ROM, or
hard drive.

--
--
spamfree999@rrohio.com
(Remove 999 to reply to me)

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

Paul wrote:

> In article <URjEd.32449$3m6.5163@attbi_s51>, "Travis King"
> <Anonymous@none.com> wrote:
>
>
>>What's probably the life expectancy of my A7V333 motherboard if I take good
>>care of it? It has 2 years on it right now. I run the computer for the
>>most part constantly except when I leave town or do something with the
>>inside of the computer. Current MB temperature is at 30 C.
>
>
> If the case temp is not excessive, the electrolytic caps should
> be good for 10 years. Solder joints under stress, could be
> anyone's guess (more likely to happen with a P4 retail heatsink
> and its high clamping forces).
>
> In ten years, you can expect several PSU failures, and any one of
> those PSU failures could damage the motherboard.
>
> If you have a lot of lightning storms, or bad quality power,
> that could influence how long the mobo lasts. Look carefully
> at any modem, cable modem, ADSL wires etc, to see if there are
> any protection devices to take a (nearby) lightning hit, before
> it gets to the motherboard. For example, on a phone line, there
> may be a carbon block at the entry point, and you could enhance
> that by using a second protection device nearer the computer.
> For the really paranoid, a wireless network would reduce the
> wiring exposure to just the power lines. A real (>$1K purchase
> price) UPS would reduce the risk of an AC power event from
> getting you, and would help protect the PSU from getting
> damaged. Cheap UPSes offer no protection at all, as they are
> actually SPS (standby power supplies) - they are a "straight wire"
> to power spikes, and the unit only cuts over to batteries if
> the AC power dies for enough milliseconds.
>
> On the motherboard itself, the Vcore circuit is the circuit under
> the most stress. If the MOSFETs are cool to the touch, that is
> a good sign. I've never read any MTBF estimates for switching
> regulators on motherboards, so don't know whether they are
> good for a 1 million hour MTBF or not.
>
> Large BGA packages also have a rating, for solder joint
> reliability. For example, a BGA with 750 pins, will last for
> about 10 years, with a certain daily temperature variation.
> From the Via web page:
>
> * 552-pin BGA VT8366A North Bridge
> * 376-pin BGA VT8233 South Bridge
>
> so you have little risk of a failure there (caps will fail
> first).
>
> Handling the processor a lot (removal, regrease, reposition
> heatsink) will cut into the life expectancy, if say the
> processor gets cracked, and it happens to overload the Vcore
> circuit. If the processor has the rubber bumpers on the top
> of the chip, that will cut that risk a bit.
>
> I would say your biggest exposure, is to external factors.
>
> Paul

I would agree, and add that IME motherboards are far more tolerant of
external factors than one has any right to expect ;-)

Our Cottage PC runs an Asus P2B-S, manufactured in 1998 and in service
for almost 6 years. We use it on weekends in winter, but the cottage is
not heated while we are away, so the system experiences repeated thermal
stress cycles - it's common for the inside temperature to be -20C or
lower when we arrive. I discourage the kids from powering up the PC
until the place has warmed up, with limited success :-)

Power is unreliable at the Cottage, and we experience frequent
thunderstorms, however despite a lack of protective measures the only PC
failure which has occurred there to date was a sound card that stopped
working after lightning struck a tree behind the building - no doubt due
to a spike induced in the 40' cable running from the sound card to a
stereo system on the other side of the room. Hardly surprising, but
damage was limited to the sound card.

I expect the Cottage P2B-S to be the first of my numerous P2B series
boards to eventually fail, but perhaps not since I use several in my lab
and subject them to frequent CPU swaps and other hardware changes. My
primary system runs a P2B-DS and has been in service 7x24 since October
1997 except for occasional shutdowns for hardware upgrades or fan
service. The power supply refused to restart after a shutdown in 2002
and was replaced, but no other failures have occurred. I have a total of
11 P2B series boards in regular use, with zero motherboard failures to date.

I'd better start saving my pennies since replacing all my systems when
the electrolytic caps fail in 2008 will be expensive ;-)

P2B

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

I have a relative that I had to replace her ECS board at 6 years old. Not
even 6 months before that, she gave me her computer and it wouldn't turn on
because the PSU went out. None of the card devices were no longer being
detected properly including the video card, modem, etc., but they all used
to be detected just fine. I reinstalled XP on it with no luck. By the way,
I did have a chipped AMD Athlon XP 1800+ running on it for a year. The
temperatures were a little higher on it than my 2400+, which is what I have
now. I have a 400w PSU. WD 80GB HD and WD 120GB HD. Lite On DVD drive.
Memorex 52x CD RW drive. NVIDIA GeForce3 Ti200. Do you think 4 years is a
good amount of time for getting a new computer for someone who edits
pictures frequently, does some gaming, lots of music, and some
multi-tasking? Thanks.
"Leythos" <void@nowhere.lan> wrote in message
news:MPG.1c4bc07d5e17253d989e76@news-server.columbus.rr.com...
> In article <URjEd.32449$3m6.5163@attbi_s51>, Anonymous@none.com says...
>> What's probably the life expectancy of my A7V333 motherboard if I take
>> good
>> care of it? It has 2 years on it right now. I run the computer for the
>> most part constantly except when I leave town or do something with the
>> inside of the computer. Current MB temperature is at 30 C.
>
> I have a number of computers that date back to 1977 that still run just
> fine. I also have a couple Dual Celeron 500Mhz machines that run well
> that are almost 5 years old (or older I think).
>
> As long as you change the PSU when it gets old (fan starts slowing and
> not cooling properly) and protect the system with a good UPS, and keep
> the vents clean (and CPU fan) it will last a long time - there are no
> moving parts on a motherboard - you may need a new floppy, CD-ROM, or
> hard drive.
>
> --
> --
> spamfree999@rrohio.com
> (Remove 999 to reply to me)

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

The fans, disks and power supplies will most likely wear out before
the mobo components themselves. If you're not overclocking, IMO the
only thing that would normally prematurely kill a mobo would be dirty
power, a dusty environment (which can cause fans to fail or not work
properly, overheating the mobo), or high humidity.

We have a two of Pentium (I) servers at work that have been running
pretty much 24/7 (give or take a week or so) since '95/'96. I've had
to relace HD's, fans and power supplies (and one PCI video card), but
zero mobo components.

---
Bob

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

In article <KQyEd.8820$ig7.3266@trnddc04>, no.spam@all.thank.you says...
> The fans, disks and power supplies will most likely wear out before
> the mobo components themselves. If you're not overclocking, IMO the
> only thing that would normally prematurely kill a mobo would be dirty
> power, a dusty environment (which can cause fans to fail or not work
> properly, overheating the mobo), or high humidity.
>
> We have a two of Pentium (I) servers at work that have been running
> pretty much 24/7 (give or take a week or so) since '95/'96. I've had
> to relace HD's, fans and power supplies (and one PCI video card), but
> zero mobo components.

CAP's (capacitors) drying out is another thing that is common in older
systems - not to mention the spread of lower quality components (CAP's)
a couple years back.

--
--
spamfree999@rrohio.com
(Remove 999 to reply to me)

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

Leythos wrote:
> In article <KQyEd.8820$ig7.3266@trnddc04>, no.spam@all.thank.you says...
>
>>The fans, disks and power supplies will most likely wear out before
>>the mobo components themselves. If you're not overclocking, IMO the
>>only thing that would normally prematurely kill a mobo would be dirty
>>power, a dusty environment (which can cause fans to fail or not work
>>properly, overheating the mobo), or high humidity.
>>
>>We have a two of Pentium (I) servers at work that have been running
>>pretty much 24/7 (give or take a week or so) since '95/'96. I've had
>>to relace HD's, fans and power supplies (and one PCI video card), but
>>zero mobo components.
>
>
> CAP's (capacitors) drying out is another thing that is common in older
> systems - not to mention the spread of lower quality components (CAP's)
> a couple years back.
>
Wasn't there something about swollen or blown capacitors on boards made
in China circa 1999.

BTW I have QDI board that still runs fine and was purchased in Nov 1997.
Has run pretty much 24-7 since then. Gone through a couple of HDDs,
CDROM drives, a case fan or two but the motherboard has survived it all.

Ron

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

In article <0cFEd.207251$Np3.8764145@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca>, Freedom55
<"joinertake this out"@ns.sympatico.ca> says...
> Wasn't there something about swollen or blown capacitors on boards made
> in China circa 1999.

Yep, someone from a company stole the formula for the electrolyte and
went to another company - that company didn't make it quite the same,
and it caused the cap's to go bad early (very early).

--
--
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(Remove 999 to reply to me)

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

In article <75cFd.315$P_3.1910@newscontent-01.sprint.ca>,
caldasfire@hades.com says...
> As to RAID 1 I think you really need 4 drives, controller that is
> smart and the software but maybe your definition is different than mine.

RAID 1 is called Mirroring - one drive mirrored at all times to a second
using either software based (as in the Operating system) or hardware
based (as in a controller card). RAID 1 uses two drive only.

RAID 5 is called striping with parity - three or more drives with data
on N-1 number of drives and parity information on N drive - the tracks
are laid out so that parity rotates it's position across all drives like
this D-D-P P-D-D D-P-D and then it repeats (change for more drives).

RAID 1 provides good read performance and is good for normal
workstations and sequential type writes.

RAID 5 provides great read performance and good write performance - RAID
5 is used where you might have data spread all over the place and
multiple requests for it at the same time (different data).

The above is VERY GENERAL and does not exactly define it.

I use RAID-1 on all high end workstations and some servers, RAID-5 is
good for web sites, database data files (not the log files). RAID 1 & 5
are good where you don't want a lost drive to kill your system.


--
--
spamfree999@rrohio.com
(Remove 999 to reply to me)

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

We still don't build as if the transistor exists.
Principles are well proven in telephone switching facilities.
A massive improvement can be install in homes for about $1 per
protected appliance. Effective protection is just not that
expensive. But unfortunately, some spend many times more
money for far less effective (plug-in) solutions. They
purchase protectors that can even contribute to damage of an
adjacent computer. Then rumors such as 'too slow' persist.

Concepts requires comprehension of some basic principles.
Fundamental to surge protection is why a Ben Franklin
lightning rod works. Too many assume based upon what they see
- that a lightning rod is protection. Wrong. The protection
is and is defined by the quality of earth ground. That is the
art - earthing. An art only because it is not intuitively
obvious. Protectors are only as effective as the protection
connected to. Protector and protection are two different
components of a surge protection 'system'.

Protection is earth ground. Sometimes earthing installed
standard in most buildings (sufficient for human safety) is
not sufficient for transistor safety. Human safety is mostly
concerned with wire 'resistance'. Transistor safety is mostly
concerned with wire impedance. Sometimes the earthing systems
must be enhanced to also provide transistor protection.

Even ineffective protectors operate plenty fast - as did the
slower GDTs decades previous that operated so effectively.
Problems understanding effective protection even causes one to
confuse a wall receptacle safety ground (also called equipment
ground) with something located elsewhere and completely
different - earth ground. Why are they different? Wire has
impedance.

These concepts are introduced in a previous discussion
entitled "Is it safe to use computer during lightning/thunder
storm?" in the newsgroup sci.electronics.basics on 22 Sept
2004 at
http://tinyurl.com/5fu8n
Further details from same author (including figures from
industry professionals) are in two posts that precede this
above post.

Protection is so easily installed and is so effective that
damage is considered a human failure. One additional point.
Destructive surges occur typically once every eight years.
Five years with no damage proves little. Protection is only
as effective as its earth ground which is why earthing is so
important in telco buildings that must operate without
interruption during every thunderstorm.

notritenoteri wrote:
> THe reason they don't operate fast enough is not really the problem
> it is the fact that most of them don't. I think your comment about
> building grounding is misleading. At least in this country buildings
> are well enough grounded to be safe in most circumstances. In
> building design it is possible to reach a very high level of
> lightening and surge protection. the issue is one of cost mostly. PC
> are cheap relatively. My experience (5 years as telecom guy in a
> building with about 1000 networked pcs) suggest lightening or surges
> are very minor problems. From what I know of lightening protection
> engineering it is an art form to some degree. Sometimes the
> engineers get it right, sometimes despite the best of designs the
> stuff blows.
> As I said its the data thats important.
> BTW as I said $250 Can will buy you an 800 watt output battery
> inverter pack to run your Ipod or laptop on your "camping trip".
> That gets you one that plugs into the wall (110-120 here) and
> outputs to 2 sockets for a total of 800 watts AC on the other side.
> That's it said my piece

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 19:50:06 -0500, nospam@needed.com (Paul) wrote:

>......
>wiring exposure to just the power lines. A real (>$1K purchase
>price) UPS would reduce the risk of an AC power event from
>getting you, and would help protect the PSU from getting
>damaged. Cheap UPSes offer no protection at all, as they are
>actually SPS (standby power supplies) - they are a "straight wire"
>to power spikes, and the unit only cuts over to batteries if
>the AC power dies for enough milliseconds.
>

I think that you are being unduly negative about cheap "UPSes". You
are absolutely correct that they are not true UPSes, since:
a) they normally connect the mains power (effectively) straight
through to the controlled devices, thus offering no _intrinsic_
protection from spikes; and
b) they have to switch to inverter mode when the power fails, which
takes finite time.
However:
a) almost all SPSes include at least as much separate surge protection
on the mains supply line as a decent standalone surge protector would
provide; and
b) All except the cheapest, no-name, ones switch fast enough so that a
normal computer system power supply does not "notice" the transient
power loss (though network switches, hubs, and the like may "glitch" ).
For most home and SOHO users, an SPS will provide cost-effective
protection against most of the data loss problems which might
otherwise be caused by brownouts and/or power outages, while their
built in (but unrelated) surge protection circuitry is a _lot_ better
than nothing as insurance against damage from power line spikes.

Please respond to the Newsgroup, so that others may benefit from the exchange.
Peter R. Fletcher

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

w_tom,
I read your referenced thread with great interest. The principles were
clearly explained but some of the stuff about different types of
surges was over my head (I'm a physician whose use and knowledge of
electricity is pretty much limited to dc defibrillators).
At my newly constructed home, I employed an electrician whose business
is limited to surge protection to provide and install the whole-house
suppressor. He put in an Eaton/Cutler Hammer CHSP Ultra that comes
with a $100,000 warranty. He says he's never in his career seen a
claim against Cutler Hammer for damage occurring in spite of this
unit. I have faith in this electrician and his recommendations, but
the whole-house suppressor was MUCH smaller than what I expected from
my minuscule knowledge of electricity.
Here's my question: This unit is mounted on the side of the
circuit-breaker box, so where is it's connection to ground? It is
very clearly within ten feet of the external earthing rod, but does it
connect to this through the inside of the breaker box? Can you give
me a brief explanation, of how this thing is wired to protect all the
circuits in the house? Also, in one of your posts, you mentioned that
phones and cable do not require separate protection because they have
built-in surge suppression, and, yet, my guy installed a companion
module (on the whole-house suppressor) for cable (not phone)
connections. Is that superfluous?

Thanks for all the time you take to provide us with these
explanations. They're great.

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 02:38:02 -0500, w_tom <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote:

> We still don't build as if the transistor exists.
>Principles are well proven in telephone switching facilities.
>A massive improvement can be install in homes for about $1 per
>protected appliance. Effective protection is just not that
>expensive. But unfortunately, some spend many times more
>money for far less effective (plug-in) solutions. They
>purchase protectors that can even contribute to damage of an
>adjacent computer. Then rumors such as 'too slow' persist.
>
> Concepts requires comprehension of some basic principles.
>Fundamental to surge protection is why a Ben Franklin
>lightning rod works. Too many assume based upon what they see
>- that a lightning rod is protection. Wrong. The protection
>is and is defined by the quality of earth ground. That is the
>art - earthing. An art only because it is not intuitively
>obvious. Protectors are only as effective as the protection
>connected to. Protector and protection are two different
>components of a surge protection 'system'.
>
> Protection is earth ground. Sometimes earthing installed
>standard in most buildings (sufficient for human safety) is
>not sufficient for transistor safety. Human safety is mostly
>concerned with wire 'resistance'. Transistor safety is mostly
>concerned with wire impedance. Sometimes the earthing systems
>must be enhanced to also provide transistor protection.
>
> Even ineffective protectors operate plenty fast - as did the
>slower GDTs decades previous that operated so effectively.
>Problems understanding effective protection even causes one to
>confuse a wall receptacle safety ground (also called equipment
>ground) with something located elsewhere and completely
>different - earth ground. Why are they different? Wire has
>impedance.
>
> These concepts are introduced in a previous discussion
>entitled "Is it safe to use computer during lightning/thunder
>storm?" in the newsgroup sci.electronics.basics on 22 Sept
>2004 at
> http://tinyurl.com/5fu8n
>Further details from same author (including figures from
>industry professionals) are in two posts that precede this
>above post.
>
> Protection is so easily installed and is so effective that
>damage is considered a human failure. One additional point.
>Destructive surges occur typically once every eight years.
>Five years with no damage proves little. Protection is only
>as effective as its earth ground which is why earthing is so
>important in telco buildings that must operate without
>interruption during every thunderstorm.
>
>notritenoteri wrote:
>> THe reason they don't operate fast enough is not really the problem
>> it is the fact that most of them don't. I think your comment about
>> building grounding is misleading. At least in this country buildings
>> are well enough grounded to be safe in most circumstances. In
>> building design it is possible to reach a very high level of
>> lightening and surge protection. the issue is one of cost mostly. PC
>> are cheap relatively. My experience (5 years as telecom guy in a
>> building with about 1000 networked pcs) suggest lightening or surges
>> are very minor problems. From what I know of lightening protection
>> engineering it is an art form to some degree. Sometimes the
>> engineers get it right, sometimes despite the best of designs the
>> stuff blows.
>> As I said its the data thats important.
>> BTW as I said $250 Can will buy you an 800 watt output battery
>> inverter pack to run your Ipod or laptop on your "camping trip".
>> That gets you one that plugs into the wall (110-120 here) and
>> outputs to 2 sockets for a total of 800 watts AC on the other side.
>> That's it said my piece

Ron