Archived from groups: microsoft.public.pocketpc (More info?)

I am a long time user of Garmin products and have (until now) thought
of them as the top of the line GPS company. Ever since I first heard
that they were coming out with a CF GPS and software for the PPC, I
have been looking forward to it. As soon as they started shipping, I
ordered one. I have had it now for about ten days and am very
disappointed with it. I have been in contact with Garmin tech
support and as usual these days I know more about the system than the
tech support guy. My cfQue installed on my Toshiba e755 with no
problems and acquired satellite lockons. The problem was that it
appeared to me that the reception was a bit weak and sluggish. I
compared it with a Garmin GPS III Plus that I've had since they first
came out. The III Plus had acquired nine satellites and had a solid
3D lock while the cfQue only had two sats and no lock. Mind you I
had the two well separated to avoid and EMI problems. I queried
Garmin tech support. Here is our exchanges:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for contacting Garmin International,

The CF Que should acquire as quickly (if not quicker than the GPS III
plus)
Make sure the cf que is plugged in all the way. Flip the antenna down
to
turn off the cf que, then power the hand unit off. Wait 30 sec,take
the unit
outside with a clear view of the sky, and power the handheld on. Then
flip
up the antenna to activate GPS. If the unit still doesn't acquire,
you may
have a bad que unit.

Please let me know if there is anything else I can assist you with.

Have a great day!
> Best Regards,
>
> Wade Slama
> Product Support Specialist
> Garmin International
---------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------
Hafa Adai Wade,

My CF Que definitely is slower and less sensitive than my GPS III
Plus.
What are the RF sensitivity specs on each of them?

I was just looking at an ad for a Pretec CF GPS unit similar to the
cfQue
1620. The following is part of the specs listing:

Radio Frequency Signal Environment:
RF Input: 1575.42 MHz (L1 Band) at a level between -130 dBW and -164
dBW to
a reversed MMCX high-retention female connector
Burnout Protection: 0dBW signal within a bandwidth of 10MHz centered
about
the L1 carrier frequency

Esta,

Steve
---------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------
The RF frequency bands are the same for each of them, as that is the
signal
the satellites are broadcasting. If your CF Que is that slow and
unresponsive, it is probably a bad unit (most likely) or the Pocket
PC you
are using it with isn't fully integrating with it. I would recommend
either
exchanging the unit for a new one with the dealer you bought it from,
or I
can set up a Return Material Authorization for you to get the unit
repaired.
If you prefer the latter, I will be happy to set that up for you.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------
Hafa Adai Wade,

Please don't insult me! I am a retired Aviation Electronics
Technician
(USN). I know that the frequency bands are the same. I was asking
about
the RF sensitivity. Garmin hasn't put out those specs. At least
anywhere
that I could find. I would really like to have some data to compare
the
Garmin units with the Pretec.

Here is the RF data from the CF GPS made by Teletype:

HARDWARE SPECIFICATIONS
TELETYPE GPS WorldNavigatorTM
CF v3.0 GPS Card #1653

GENERAL

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Frequency: L1, 1575.42 MHz.
C/A:
1.023 MHz chip rate
Channels: 12 Channel parallel tracking.
Antenna: External patch antenna via MCX connector
(extra cost may apply for antenna)
ROM: TeleType 1651 with automatic initialization
Sensitivity: -170dBW



You will notice the sensitivity figure -170dBW. That is a wee
tiny RF
signal and indicates excellent sensitivity. The Pretec was between -
130dBW
and -164dBW. The Teletype sells for $249.00 and Pretec goes for
$160.00. I
would buy the Teletype. Not only for the sensitivity, but for a
number of
other selling points in its' favor. Sensitivity is the major factor
in the
selection of any type of RF receiver.

Esta,

Steve
---------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------
Hafa Adai Wade,

Have you been able to find out what the sensitivity specs are for the
cfQue1620 and the GPS III Plus yet?

Is the cfQue 1620 capable of using NMEA protocol? I've been trying
to use
it with Memory-Map Navigator software to no avail. My GPS III Plus
works
fine with the Navigator in both the Garmin and the NMEA modes. Is
the cfQue
1620 supposed to be able to interface with third party software or is
it
only to work with the Garmin software?

Esta,

Steve

---------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------
The Cf Que is not a nmea compatible device.

Standard GPS test signal level applied to the cfQue 1620 shall be -
125dBm
+/- 0.5 dB.


If your cf Que is not acquiring, it most likely is getting RF
interference
from your pocket PC's processor. Some pocket PC's will generate
excessive RF
interference that will interfere with GPS reception, so it may not
work well
on all handheld devices.

The GPS III signal strength is -55dBm

I hope this helps.

Have a great weekend.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------
Hafa Adai Wade,

I have been in touch with Tech Support at Memory-Map to try to find
out how
to get the cfQue 1620 to work with their Navigator software. I
received
this email from Ron today.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
--------------------------------------------------

Dear Mr. Hildebrand,

I have looked over the data that you sent in the debug files. It
appears
that Garmin has changed the protocol used for the position sentences
for the
CF GPS. The CF units we have dealt with in the past all use an NMEA
sentence. This unit uses a Garmin sentence, but it is a different
protocol
from that used in the other Garmin models. This appears to be an
attempt by
Garmin to force people into using the Garmin maps. Our developers
are
working to create a driver for the new protocol, but I have no idea
on the
timeline for that feature. The device you used on the PC (the Garmin
GPS
III Plus) uses the standard Garmin protocol I mentioned. If you can
find a
way to change to mode on the CF card to an NMEA format, that would
work, but
I do not know of a method to do that. I see no documentation in the
manual
regarding changing interface mode. On the handheld Garmin units, you
can
change the mode in the Interface section of the menu. If you have
further
questions, please contact me at support@memory-map.com.

Sincerely,

Ron Heintzelman

***************************
Ronald Heintzelman
Memory-Map, Inc.
www.memory-map.com
(607) 532-4122
---------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------
Hafa Adai,

My cfQue is acquiring satellites. It gets 2D lockons fairly quick,
but 3D
is a bit sluggish at times. I believe your sense figure for the
cfQue, but
not the figure for the GPS III Plus. -55dBm is ungodly poor.
Evidently you
are not familiar with the dBm unit. It is measured on a logarithmic
-125dBm is humongously better than -55dBm for RF sensitivity.
Talk
to one of your engineers and get them to give you a short course in
decibel
measurement. I've been looking at data on a bunch of other CF GPS's.
I
didn't know there were so many until now. The worst RF sense of the
bunch
is the Pretec at -130 to -164. Even that is better than the Garmin.
Of all
the units I researched, the Holux GM-270U has the best (-175) RF
sense and
best feature set. It has a built-in WAAS that can be toggled on and
off as
needed. I can buy one of these for $119.95 and use it with anyone
else's
software except Garmins. It also comes with a software utility for
test and
configuration. And then there is the capability of hooking on an
external
antenna. I'm probably going to buy the Holux unit. I have used
Garmin
products for many years and have always (until now) thought of Garmin
as
being the top of the line GPS company. I'm very disappointed in you.

Esta,

Steve
---------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------
Well that's it in a nutshell. It would appear that Garmin has dumped
a dud of a CF GPS module on us. They changed its' instruction set so
that the only software you can use it with is theirs. They make it
so that you have to buy their software AND hardware as a bundle. I
was one of the first fools to dive in. Usually I wait until a few
months after a new product comes out to buy it. That way I can read
the reviews and message traffic to find out if it is really up to
specs. This time I trusted in the Garmin name. Don't get me wrong.
The cfQue 1620 is a very useable system. It just seems to me that it
falls somewhat short of what I would normally expect of Garmin.

Steve Hildebrand
sdh@kuentos.guam.net

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.pocketpc (More info?)

Steven Hildebrand wrote:

> Well that's it in a nutshell. It would appear that Garmin has dumped
> a dud of a CF GPS module on us. They changed its' instruction set so
> that the only software you can use it with is theirs. They make it
> so that you have to buy their software AND hardware as a bundle. I
> was one of the first fools to dive in. Usually I wait until a few
> months after a new product comes out to buy it. That way I can read
> the reviews and message traffic to find out if it is really up to
> specs. This time I trusted in the Garmin name. Don't get me wrong.
> The cfQue 1620 is a very useable system. It just seems to me that it
> falls somewhat short of what I would normally expect of Garmin.
>
> Steve Hildebrand
> sdh@kuentos.guam.net

The interface uses the standard Garmin binary interface which is the
same as the III+ and most other Garmin units. OziexplorerCE can talk to
the new Garmin CF unit. There is no NMEA mode on this unit but the
binary mode is well documented for anyone to interface to it and has
been around for years. The advantage of the binary mode is that you can
upload and download tracks and waypoints, etc. as well as real time
tracking and 9600 Baud. Don't get me wrong, I would like to see NMEA
mode but the mode they have chosen is easy to program for.

I have a cfGPS and find its sensitivity ok. It is comparable to other
PDA units I have tested. The Garmin tech only told you the test levels
and not the spec for the unit. He probably does not know. Garmin tends
not to release this kind of data but I agree it would be nice to have. I
am working on a review of this product. I have a review on my site for
the iQue 3600 which is a sister unit for Palm.


Dale
--
_ _ Dale DePriest
/`) _ // http://users.cwnet.com/dalede
o/_/ (_(_X_(` For GPS and GPS/PDAs

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.pocketpc (More info?)

Yesterday I made a thirty mile drive from the northern end of Guam to
the southern end where I live. My wife was driving and I was the
copilot. I was mainly keeping an eye on the GPS Info page on my e755.
The system acquired a good 3D lock and held it all the way. The
reception at the northern end was somewhat better than at the southern.
At the Northern end. I constantly had 6-8 satellites acquired, while 3-5
seemed to be the norm for the south. The terrain is quite different in
the south. Hills and valleys versus flat and populus in the north. I
would say the cfQue performed quite well.

The first day I installed the cfQue on my e755 I went out in my front
yard and tryed it out. It took quite a while to axquire sats and get a
2D and then a 3D lock. That's normal for a first time in a new area.
The next day I put it in the car and took it for a test run for a couple
of miles around my area. I backed out into an open area and waited for
it to aquire sats. Although I moved the car to different areas in my
yard and pointed it in different directions, I could never even get a 2D
lock. Finally I pulled out on the road and started driving. Less the a
mile down the road I got a 2D lock, but not for long. I finally got a
3D lock just as I was about home and it held as I went down my drive
into my front yard. Needless to say the performance bothered me. Later
on that evening I thought about doing a comparison test with my GPS III
Plus. I put two chairs out in my front yard well in the open and just
far enough apart so that I could watch both of the GPS's. I turned them
both on and watched. The III Plus acquired a 3D lock and had a bunch of
sats acquired while the cfQue and only two sats. I picked up the e755
and walked around the front yard to try to get better reception. I
turned off the e755 and reseated the cfQue and was finally able to to
show four sats acquired and a 3D lock. All this time the III Plus was
sitting on the chair showing 7-9 sats. At this time I went inside and
sent off an email to Garmin to query them on this situation. The next
morning I brought my GPS's out for some more testing. The cfQue got a
3D lock in 2min17sec first time and 44sec the second time. The III Plus
got a 3D lock in 35 sec first time and 28sec the second time. I then
decided to wait to hear what Garmin had to say. The rest is history

As for Ozie Explorer working with the cfQue, if they still have a demo
version I'll download it and give it a try. They may have queried
Garmin early on about the change and written it into their software.
It's true that the other software makers can do the same to adapt their
programs to the cfQue. I'm hopeing that Memory-Map Navigator gets
adapted soon. I really like it chart handling capabilities..


I can't understand why Garmin wants to keep the threshold sensitivity a
secret unless it is lower than the competition.

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.pocketpc (More info?)

Steven Hildebrand wrote:

> Yesterday I made a thirty mile drive from the northern end of Guam to
> the southern end where I live. My wife was driving and I was the
> copilot. I was mainly keeping an eye on the GPS Info page on my e755.
> The system acquired a good 3D lock and held it all the way. The
> reception at the northern end was somewhat better than at the southern.
> At the Northern end. I constantly had 6-8 satellites acquired, while 3-5
> seemed to be the norm for the south. The terrain is quite different in
> the south. Hills and valleys versus flat and populus in the north. I
> would say the cfQue performed quite well.

The number of satellites is very dependent on geometry. The strength
would be interesting. A high satellite fully unobstructed should be
reporting in the 40's on the cfQue. The bottom line is 30 and they go up
by 5 on each line. If you cannot get 40's to 50 on some birds then the
likely suspects are:
1. A bad cfQue
2. An electically noisy PDA (not at all uncommon but the way).
3. Interference from you vehicle (car radio, etc.)

Dale

--
_ _ Dale DePriest
/`) _ // http://users.cwnet.com/dalede
o/_/ (_(_X_(` For GPS and GPS/PDAs

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.pocketpc (More info?)

Thanks Dale

Most of my signal strengths were in the 40's. I don't think I have a bad
CFQue and I don't believe I have an EMI problem. I would say it's working
OK now. I'll be heading for the Seattle area soon and will be able to give
it a real road test. The map for Guam is very sketchy and no detail. The
road lines on the map are not too accurate. I appoligize for calling the
cfQue a dud. I was still a bit steamed up at the tech support guy.