Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

Goal is to take a series of JPG photos from a digital carmera and make
a NTSC DVD photo slideshow with a motion background menu and audio.

I'm using tools like Audacity, TmpgEnc, TmpgEnc DvdAuthor which handles
the mpeg2 conversions, audio & motion menus, so all I need is a program
to make a slideshow (i.e avi or wmv output or any other format that
Tmpg can read) that I can feed into TmpgEnc to encode into mpeg2.

So I was using Window Movie Maker to make .wmv slideshows.
But I've found out that Win MM is very poor at resizing photos and that
I should give it photos in the 'proper' size so that Win MM won't have
to do any resizing at all.

What is the proper size? In all cases I'm cropping to a 4:3 ratio then
resizing.

Is it 640x480 (one source said resize to 640x480 since that will
translate to 720x480 on a TV because of square vs non-square pixels)
But then wouldn't I lose some picture due to overscan?

This source
http://www.uwasa.fi/~f76998/video/conversion/
said to resample to 704x480 then pad with black borders to make it
720x480. Wouldn't resampling to 704x48 distort the picture since
that ratio isn't 4:3? Or would it look fine when played on a TV?
thanks

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

The stills will have square pixels, so 620x480 is correct. (Minus any border
size you want)

Take a look at DVD-Lab. It has a nice slideshow function built in.

<csaagpDIESPAMDIE@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1102524648.196202.169630@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Goal is to take a series of JPG photos from a digital carmera and make
> a NTSC DVD photo slideshow with a motion background menu and audio.
>
> I'm using tools like Audacity, TmpgEnc, TmpgEnc DvdAuthor which handles
> the mpeg2 conversions, audio & motion menus, so all I need is a program
> to make a slideshow (i.e avi or wmv output or any other format that
> Tmpg can read) that I can feed into TmpgEnc to encode into mpeg2.
>
> So I was using Window Movie Maker to make .wmv slideshows.
> But I've found out that Win MM is very poor at resizing photos and that
> I should give it photos in the 'proper' size so that Win MM won't have
> to do any resizing at all.
>
> What is the proper size? In all cases I'm cropping to a 4:3 ratio then
> resizing.
>
> Is it 640x480 (one source said resize to 640x480 since that will
> translate to 720x480 on a TV because of square vs non-square pixels)
> But then wouldn't I lose some picture due to overscan?
>
> This source
> http://www.uwasa.fi/~f76998/video/conversion/
> said to resample to 704x480 then pad with black borders to make it
> 720x480. Wouldn't resampling to 704x48 distort the picture since
> that ratio isn't 4:3? Or would it look fine when played on a TV?
> thanks
>

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

You can just have a try with the Photo2DVD software. It's a good
application, and I am sure it will help you.
http://www.photo-to-dvd.com

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

csaagpDIESPAMDIE@yahoo.com wrote:

> Goal is to take a series of JPG photos from a digital carmera
> and make a NTSC DVD photo slideshow with a motion background
> menu and audio. [...] What is the proper size? In all cases
> I'm cropping to a 4:3 ratio then resizing.

The proper size depends on the DVD authoring app you use. These days,
many beginner-level or middle-level DVD authoring applications treat all
imported still images as "square pixels", and convert them to DVD (ITU-R
BT.601) pixels automatically on the fly. However, there are some more
professional apps which let you import images in the true, native DVD
resolution.

> This source http://www.uwasa.fi/~f76998/video/conversion/
> said to resample to 704x480 then pad with black borders to make it
> 720x480.

That is what you do with (square-pixel) 4:3 images if your authoring app
requires still images to be imported in DV pixels, and does not do any
"square pixels" -> "dv pixels" conversion on its own.

However, a better way to do it would be cropping a 720×527 pixel area
out of the original (square-pixel) image, then interpolating to 720×480.
See <http://www.iki.fi/znark/video/conversion/#4.7> for more
information.

> Wouldn't resampling to 704x48 distort the picture since
> that ratio isn't 4:3?

704x480 _is_ (approximately) 4:3 in DV pixels. 640x480 is the same 4:3
area in square ("computer" ) pixels.

> Or would it look fine when played on a TV?

Supposing that the DVD authoring app does not do any
interpolating/resampling on its own, it would look fine on the tv. If,
however, your DVD authoring app insists on second-guessing what you
want, and interpolates all imported still images by itself, there isn't
much you can do about it and then you just have to offer it square-pixel
images.

--
znark

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

Jukka,
thanks for that info, really appreciate it.
So, if I get this straight -

if there's no conversion from square to non-square by the slideshow
app, then I could , on my own,
1) crop to a 720x527 ratio (the original pics are something like
2000x1500 pixels so I can't just crop to 720x527), then interpolate to
720x480 (btw I found a program called Irfanview that has a batch
resample function which is very quick and seems to give good results).

2)I'm trying to figure out how to generate (30 frames * desired picture
length) per each picture with AviSynth so I don't have to worry about
whether or not a slidehow app does an internal conversion. Then I
could just use TmpgEnc to convert the .avi output to Mpeg2 and feed
that to a DVD authoring program like Tmpg DvdAuthor. Or does the
square/nonsquare logic come in the authoring process and not in the
conversion to mpeg2 process?

Guess it would be easier if the typical $50 slideshow apps would given
an option about square/non-square. But I'm not sure if they do, which
is why I'm going thru this exercise. At the least I'm learning
something (I think)

Windows Movie Maker has profiles you use when you save in their .wmv
format;
those formats have a 'use non-square pixels' option. I'm guessing that
if I give it a 720x480 made as desribed above & use a profile with that
option checked, then the app shouldn't be doing any internal
conversions.

If I use an app that does do an internal square to non-square
conversion then I would just crop to a 4:3 ratio (and possibly resize
myself to 640x480) and feed that to the slideshow application.

Is all that correct?

That paper of yours is incredibly informative, although it took 2
tylenols after trying to digest it the first time <g>

Also, what are some of those professional apps you mentioned that allow
you to work in native format?

thanks again

Jukka Aho wrote:
> csaagpDIESPAMDIE@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > Goal is to take a series of JPG photos from a digital carmera
> > and make a NTSC DVD photo slideshow with a motion background
> > menu and audio. [...] What is the proper size? In all cases
> > I'm cropping to a 4:3 ratio then resizing.
>
> The proper size depends on the DVD authoring app you use. These days,

> many beginner-level or middle-level DVD authoring applications treat
all
> imported still images as "square pixels", and convert them to DVD
(ITU-R
> BT.601) pixels automatically on the fly. However, there are some more

> professional apps which let you import images in the true, native DVD

> resolution.
>
> > This source http://www.uwasa.fi/~f76998/video/conversion/
> > said to resample to 704x480 then pad with black borders to make it
> > 720x480.
>
> That is what you do with (square-pixel) 4:3 images if your authoring
app
> requires still images to be imported in DV pixels, and does not do
any
> "square pixels" -> "dv pixels" conversion on its own.
>
> However, a better way to do it would be cropping a 720×527 pixel
area
> out of the original (square-pixel) image, then interpolating to
720×480.
> See <http://www.iki.fi/znark/video/conversion/#4.7> for more
> information.
>
> > Wouldn't resampling to 704x48 distort the picture since
> > that ratio isn't 4:3?
>
> 704x480 _is_ (approximately) 4:3 in DV pixels. 640x480 is the same
4:3
> area in square ("computer" ) pixels.
>
> > Or would it look fine when played on a TV?
>
> Supposing that the DVD authoring app does not do any
> interpolating/resampling on its own, it would look fine on the tv.
If,
> however, your DVD authoring app insists on second-guessing what you
> want, and interpolates all imported still images by itself, there
isn't
> much you can do about it and then you just have to offer it
square-pixel
> images.
>
> --
> znark

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

csaagpDIESPAMDIE@yahoo.com wrote:

> So, if I get this straight -
>
> if there's no conversion from square to non-square by the slideshow
> app, then I could , on my own, 1) crop to a 720x527 ratio (the
> original pics are something like 2000x1500 pixels so I can't just
> crop to 720x527), then interpolate to 720x480

Yes. That should get you a full 720×480 frame, nicely filled up with
correctly-shaped DV (ITU-R BT.601) pixels.

One thing to note, however, is that tv sets - unlike computer
monitors -are generally set to overscan the picture: that is, the image
fills the whole screen but the border areas go over the edges of the
tube.

If you want to fill up the whole tv screen from top to bottom, edge to
edge, you need to make sure that nothing important in your original
images is lost at the very edges due to overscan. If you can't solve
this problem by creative framing (i.e. if there is something very
important at the very edges of the original image that absolutely
_needs_ to be visible on the tv, too), you could always add borders
around the image.

Be warned, though, that adding borders is not necessarily an ideal
solution: different tv sets from different manufacturers may have been
set for a different amount of overscan. Even if you adjust the border
width to be minimal on your set, they might show up larger (or
non-existent) on some other sets. Sometimes the picture was not even
centered correctly when the set left the factory, which may manifest
itself as those added borders not being visible on all sides of the
image (or in some cases, at least not being of equal width), which is
usually somewhat distracting.

This site wraps up all things "overscan" quite well (see especially the
last two images on the page):

<http://scanline.ca/overscan/>

One more thing: interlacing may make certain kinds of picture content
flicker quite badly on a domestic tv set. This usually has to do with
thin horizontal details, and horizontal details in general. For example,
an image of venetian blinds, such as this one

<http://www.cintacor.es/CATA/VENE/BVENE1.JPG>

may flicker quite much. Reasons for this can be found from this article:

If needed, this can be fixed by mildly low-pass filtering (or blurring)
the image in the vertical direction, making for a smoother transition
between the odd and even fields. For example, you could use the Motion
Blur filter in Photoshop, with direction set to vertical and the amount
to 2 pixels.

> (btw I found a program called Irfanview that has a batch
> resample function which is very quick and seems to give good
> results).

Irfanview is a great tool, but you can also do these type of batch jobs
with the ImageMagick command-line tools, which I suggested in the other
message.

> 2)I'm trying to figure out how to generate (30 frames * desired
> picture length) per each picture with AviSynth so I don't have
> to worry about whether or not a slidehow app does an internal
> conversion.

Are you sure you want to make the slideshow a video at all? DVDs can
also contain MPEG still images [1], and slideshows can be constructed by
timing the display of these pictures (by means of DVD scripting, instead
of making an actual movie out of it.) There can also be an audio track
on the background.

Then again, if you want transitions and other visual effects in your
slideshow, you _must_ make it into a movie of sorts.

> Or does the square/nonsquare logic come in the authoring
> process and not in the conversion to mpeg2 process?

Once you have encoded it into a DVD-compliant MPEG-2 file (with the
aspect ratio you want), it will stay that way through the authoring
process.

(Exception: some authoring programs - especially the lower-end
all-in-one style offerings - may try to second-guess you, and may want
to re-encode the MPEG-2 files with their built-in MPEG-2 encoder if they
detect there is something wrong with the file you originally offered
[i.e. if the authoring program thinks the file you offered is _not_ DVD
compliant, for some reason].)

> Guess it would be easier if the typical $50 slideshow apps would
> given an option about square/non-square. But I'm not sure if they
> do, which is why I'm going thru this exercise. At the least I'm
> learning something (I think)

I think practically _all_ of the DVD slideshow apps - at least those
aimed for normal home users and hobbyists - will automatically do the
square-to-non-square conversion for you.

(Hideously expensive and complicated professional DVD authoring
applications may be another story.)

> Windows Movie Maker has profiles you use when you save in their
> .wmv format; those formats have a 'use non-square pixels' option.
> I'm guessing that if I give it a 720x480 made as desribed above
> & use a profile with that option checked, then the app shouldn't
> be doing any internal conversions.

Sounds plausible, but I have not really used Windows Movie Maker, so I
can't confirm that. (You probably wouldn't want to save intermediate
files to .wmv format, though.)

> If I use an app that does do an internal square to non-square
> conversion then I would just crop to a 4:3 ratio (and possibly
> resize myself to 640x480) and feed that to the slideshow
> application.
>
> Is all that correct?

Yup, though I don't think you would even need to crop to any specific
ratio, much less resize to 640×480. Most of these simple slideshow apps
are designed so that they treat everything thrown at them "square
pixels" and resize and add borders accordingly. If you have an
odd-shaped image, they will probably let you decide whether you want it
cropped or if you would like to have borders added around it instead.

> That paper of yours is incredibly informative, although it took 2
> tylenols after trying to digest it the first time <g>

Ha! I've been planning to update and rewrite that paper for some time
now. (For example, it doesn't have anything about the 16:9 aspect ratio,
or HDTV resolutions, and I think it could also benefit from a couple of
explanatory illustrations.) Haven't really had the time for that yet.

> Also, what are some of those professional apps you mentioned that
> allow you to work in native format?

Well, at least <http://www.sonic.com/products/scenarist/default.asp>. As
far as DVD authoring goes, you can't get much more professional (and
expensive.)

_____

[1] Yes, there are still-image MPEGs, too, although the photo DVD and
slideshow authoring apps usually handle the conversions from JPEG etc.
transparently for you (so you do not necessarily need to know that MPEG
stills exist, or handle the stills directly in MPEG format at any point,
because the authoring app will take care of all that for you behind the
scenes.)

This is what the DVD FAQ (http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html) has
to say on the subject: "Still frames (encoded as MPEG I-frames) are
supported and can be displayed for a specific amount of time or
indefinitely. These are used for menus or slideshows. Still frames can
be accompanied by audio."

--
znark