Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Hey all.
 
MY COMPUTER
is SCSI for the express purpose of being able to break the IDE barrier  
and add multiple gadgets and gewgaws in the future.  I use it in my  
graphics-intensive home-based work.  Notwithstanding the characteristics  
of its motherboard and OS, it is a STANDALONE (I have no need of  
passwords, since I'm the only one who ever uses it).  I label the  
computer “P6DGU” (the model of its Supermicro motherboard) and here are  
the relevant stats + the intended drive layout:
 
SCSI PIII (2000 MHz)
2 GB RAM
AMI BIOS
6-BAY TOWER
WINDOWS 2000 PROFESSIONAL
PROMISE IDE CONTROLLER
 
A:\……FLOPPY
C:\……SCSI……[[[[[[[[[[HDD]]]]]]]]]]……“MICROSOFT”………………(18 GB) IBM  
Ultrastar DDYS-T18350N
D:\……IDE …… [[[[[[[[[[HDD]]]]]]]]]]……“DOWNLOAD”………………(2 GB) Maxtor 72004 AP
E:\……IDE…………………ZIP-DISK………“EJECT”………………… (100 MB) Iomega
F:\……SCSI……[[[[[[[[[[HDD]]]]]]]]]]…… “FILES” ………………………(181 GB) Seagate  
ST1181677LCV ULTRA 160
G:\……SCSI……[[[[[[[[[[HDD]]]]]]]]]]……“GRAPHICS”…………………(181 GB) Seagate  
ST1181677LCV ULTRA 160
H:\……IDE………………DVD±R/RW………“_______________”……(16X) NEC ND-3520A
I:\ ……IDE………………DVD±R/RW………“_______________”……(16X) NEC ND-3520A
J:\……IDE………………CD-ROM…………“(CABLED AUDIO)”………(4X) SONY
K:\……IDE………………CD-R/RW ………“(RE-WRITEABLE)”………(24X) TDK Velo
 
===================================================================
STRATEGIES FOR RESTRAINING MICROSOFT FROM MANIPULATING DRIVE LETTER  
ASSIGNMENTS
Weeks ago I ran into major grief by connecting/unconnecting drives whose  
drive letter assignments had been manipulated either during WINDOWS 2000  
PROFESSIONAL Setup or after.  I want to understand what steps I can take  
to prevent a reoccurrence of the nightmare I ran into with my ATAPI  
drives, in particular.  I know of two ways I can control IDE drive  
assignments:
1.)  Physically cable one drive-per-W2K-reboot, in the order I wish
2.)  Modify drive letters from within W2K using
……………Control Panel \ Administrator Tools \ Computer Management \ DISK  
MANAGEMENT
 
The conflict with Option 1 arises from my need to install W2K from a CD  
drive:  I have yet to figure out how to successfully back out of an  
install using one of my CD drives ->and have it STICK.  I can't tell you  
how many times I had all but
……………A:\……FLOPPY
……………C:\……SCSI HDD
……………D:\……IDE DVD±R/RW
connected, whereupon 4 reboots (and drive connects) later what was in  
the queue to be H:\ (the IDE DVD±R/RW drive first used to install W2K's  
CD Setup) reclaimed the ghost of its prior D:\ . . . and sent the whole  
architecture of my drive layout to hell in a handbasket.
 
Like it's Evil Twin, Option 2 likewise manipulated my drive letter  
assignments through Control Panel - but if anything, the Control Panel  
option was WORSE:  I was flabbergasted at the liberties Microsoft took  
with changing my drive assignments.  One boot my Zip Drive was E.  Then  
my IDE Maxtor HDD would get E . . . and Zip became <snip, you get the  
picture>.
 
(put me through option 2 again and I'll just give up and shoot myself lol)
 
Indeed, the only drive that ever stayed put and remained the ONE thing I  
ever wanted it to be was my C drive.  When I asked myself why that was,  
I realized that it was because I had effectively restrained Microsoft at  
the BIOS level:
……………C: is jumpered to be SCSI "Device 1" (not 0, and I hope THAT isn't  
an issue)
……………"Device 1" is what I configured to boot to, and then saved, through  
the onboard SCSI utility
……………"SCSI" is what I configured to boot to, and then saved, through AMI  
BIOS
 
===================================================================
MY QUESTIONS:
 
Can I somehow set the Master/Slave settings in AMI BIOS in such a way  
that my layout (above) will not only be honored . . . Microsoft will be  
FORCED, at BIOS level, to recognize (for example) J:\ as my old Sony 4X  
.. . . E:\ as my EJECT Zip Disk drive . . . K:\ as my TDK etc.?
 
How do I jumper the 2 CD drives when my DVD drives are ALREADY jumpered  
for Master and Slave?  Come to that — how should I be jumpering ANY of  
the IDE drives, especially since my 2 GB HDD is slated to be Drive D:\ ?
 
Two (of the 6) IDE devices will need to go on that Promise card - any  
suggestions as to which two?
 
Anything special I should do as to the cabling?
 
Should I still resort to CABLE/BOOT, CABLE/BOOT to force the drive  
letters?  Then . . . how do I safely back out of the DVD drive used to  
first set up W2K and place it 4 drives down the hierarchy LATER in such  
a manner that it will STICK?
 
Thanks for any and all help!
 
Angel

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

CURIOUS ANGEL <byte.this@usa.net> wrote
 
> MY COMPUTER is SCSI for the express purpose of being able to break the IDE  
> barrier and add multiple gadgets and gewgaws in the future.
 
SCSI has passed its useby date for that, its done with USB and firewire now.
 
> I use it in my graphics-intensive home-based work.  Notwithstanding the  
> characteristics of its motherboard and OS, it is a STANDALONE (I have no need  
> of passwords, since I'm the only one who ever uses it).  I label the computer  
> “P6DGU” (the model of its Supermicro motherboard) and here are the relevant  
> stats + the intended drive layout:
 
> SCSI PIII (2000 MHz)
> 2 GB RAM
> AMI BIOS
> 6-BAY TOWER
> WINDOWS 2000 PROFESSIONAL
> PROMISE IDE CONTROLLER
 
> A:\……FLOPPY
> C:\……SCSI……[[[[[[[[[[HDD]]]]]]]]]]……“MICROSOFT”………………(18 GB) IBM
> Ultrastar DDYS-T18350N
> D:\……IDE …… [[[[[[[[[[HDD]]]]]]]]]]……“DOWNLOAD”………………(2 GB) Maxtor
> 72004 AP E:\……IDE…………………ZIP-DISK………“EJECT”………………… (100 MB) Iomega
> F:\……SCSI……[[[[[[[[[[HDD]]]]]]]]]]…… “FILES” ………………………(181 GB) Seagate
> ST1181677LCV ULTRA 160
> G:\……SCSI……[[[[[[[[[[HDD]]]]]]]]]]……“GRAPHICS”…………………(181 GB) Seagate
> ST1181677LCV ULTRA 160
> H:\……IDE………………DVD±R/RW………“_______________”……(16X) NEC ND-3520A
> I:\ ……IDE………………DVD±R/RW………“_______________”……(16X) NEC ND-3520A
> J:\……IDE………………CD-ROM…………“(CABLED AUDIO)”………(4X) SONY
> K:\……IDE………………CD-R/RW ………“(RE-WRITEABLE)”………(24X) TDK Velo
>
> ===================================================================
> STRATEGIES FOR RESTRAINING MICROSOFT FROM MANIPULATING DRIVE LETTER  
> ASSIGNMENTS
 
2K doesnt do that much.
 
> Weeks ago I ran into major grief by connecting/unconnecting drives
> whose drive letter assignments had been manipulated either during
> WINDOWS 2000 PROFESSIONAL Setup or after.  I want to understand what steps I  
> can take to prevent a reoccurrence of the nightmare I ran into with my ATAPI  
> drives, in particular.  I know of two ways I can control IDE drive  
> assignments:
> 1.)  Physically cable one drive-per-W2K-reboot, in the order I wish
 
That only applys with the initial location of the drive on the cable, it
doesnt apply when they are moved after the initial allocation of a letter.
 
> 2.)  Modify drive letters from within W2K using
> Control Panel \ Administrator Tools \ Computer Management \ DISK MANAGEMENT
 
> The conflict with Option 1 arises from my need to install W2K from a
> CD drive:  I have yet to figure out how to successfully back out of an
> install using one of my CD drives ->and have it STICK.  I can't tell
> you how many times I had all but
> ……………A:\……FLOPPY
> ……………C:\……SCSI HDD
> ……………D:\……IDE DVD±R/RW
> connected, whereupon 4 reboots (and drive connects) later what was in the  
> queue to be H:\ (the IDE DVD±R/RW drive first used to install W2K's CD Setup)  
> reclaimed the ghost of its prior D:\ . . . and sent the whole architecture of  
> my drive layout to hell in a handbasket.
 
The main trick is to physically disconnect everything but the
drive you are installing 2K on and the cdrom drive you are
installing it from for the install and then add the rest of the
drives back in after the install has completed.
 
> Like it's Evil Twin, Option 2 likewise manipulated my drive letter
> assignments through Control Panel - but if anything, the Control Panel
> option was WORSE:  I was flabbergasted at the liberties Microsoft took
> with changing my drive assignments.  One boot my Zip Drive was E. Then my IDE  
> Maxtor HDD would get E . . . and Zip became <snip, you get the picture>.
 
Doesnt happen if they arent present during the 2K install.
 
> (put me through option 2 again and I'll just give up and shoot myself lol)
 
> Indeed, the only drive that ever stayed put and remained the ONE thing I ever  
> wanted it to be was my C drive.  When I asked myself why that was, I realized  
> that it was because I had effectively restrained Microsoft at the BIOS level:
 
Nope, its just how the OS does things, it doesnt change the
letter of the boot drive at all from what it used first in the install.
 
> ……………C: is jumpered to be SCSI "Device 1" (not 0, and I hope THAT isn't  an  
> issue)
> ……………"Device 1" is what I configured to boot to, and then saved, through the  
> onboard SCSI utility
> ……………"SCSI" is what I configured to boot to, and then saved, through AMI BIOS
 
> ===================================================================
> MY QUESTIONS:
 
> Can I somehow set the Master/Slave settings in AMI BIOS in such a way that my  
> layout (above) will not only be honored . . . Microsoft will
> be FORCED, at BIOS level, to recognize (for example) J:\ as my old
> Sony 4X . . . E:\ as my EJECT Zip Disk drive . . . K:\ as my TDK etc.?
 
Nope.
 
> How do I jumper the 2 CD drives when my DVD drives are ALREADY jumpered for  
> Master and Slave?
 
The master and slave jumpering applys to a single cable.
You need a master and slave on each cable.
 
> Come to that — how should I be jumpering ANY of the IDE drives, especially  
> since my 2 GB HDD is slated to be Drive D:\ ?
 
Thats got nothing to do with the drive letters.
 
> Two (of the 6) IDE devices will need to go on that Promise card - any  
> suggestions as to which two?
 
They dont really like optical drives much.
 
> Anything special I should do as to the cabling?
 
Not relevant to drive letters.
 
> Should I still resort to CABLE/BOOT, CABLE/BOOT to force the drive letters?
 
Wont work.
 
> Then . . . how do I safely back out of the DVD drive used to first set up W2K  
> and place it 4 drives down the hierarchy LATER in such a manner that it will  
> STICK?
 
Just use the disk management to change the letter.
 
The other thing to realise is that 2K doesnt even need drive letters
at all. You may well be getting obsessed about nothing much at all.
 
Thats not true of all software tho.

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

What Promise IDE card do you use?
I have encountered some problems when using it for optical drives.
 
Do you plan to setup your system from scratch (no file systems on hard
drives)?
 
Do you need to keep changing drives arrangements after OS installation?
 
If you answer is YES and NO respectively, just connect one SCSI
disk (IBM Ultrastar DDYS-T18350N) with SCSI ID0 and one
optical drive (DVD-RW)  to motherboard IDE as a master.
Configure BIOS options.
Boot W2K istallation CD, install OS. Install SP 4,
assign distant letter (R or so) to optical drive.
Connect other drives, partiton and format them as needed.
At the end, connect other optical drives and ZIP, assign drive letters.
 
As long as you do not disconnect your hard drives, letters
should stay intact.

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

CURIOUS ANGEL wrote:
 
> Hey all.
>  
> MY COMPUTER
> is SCSI for the express purpose of being able to break the IDE barrier
> and add multiple gadgets and gewgaws in the future.
 
What is this "IDE barrier"?  No SCSI drives are available with capacity to
match the largest IDE drives, so that can't be the "barrier" you're talking
about.
 
> I use it in my  
> graphics-intensive home-based work.  Notwithstanding the characteristics
> of its motherboard and OS, it is a STANDALONE (I have no need of
> passwords, since I'm the only one who ever uses it).  I label the
> computer ?P6DGU? (the model of its Supermicro motherboard) and here are
> the relevant stats + the intended drive layout:
>  
> SCSI PIII (2000 MHz)
 
Nope.  I've got a P6DGU too--very nice board, but it doesn't take anything
that runs 2000 MHz.  It does take two PIII/1000s, which is better than a
single 2000 MHz processor for some purposes and not as good for others.
 
> 2 GB RAM
> AMI BIOS
> 6-BAY TOWER
> WINDOWS 2000 PROFESSIONAL
> PROMISE IDE CONTROLLER
>  
> A:\??FLOPPY
> C:\??SCSI??[[[[[[[[[[HDD]]]]]]]]]]???MICROSOFT???????(18 GB) IBM
> Ultrastar DDYS-T18350N
> D:\??IDE ?? [[[[[[[[[[HDD]]]]]]]]]]???DOWNLOAD???????(2 GB) Maxtor 72004
> AP E:\??IDE???????ZIP-DISK????EJECT???????? (100 MB) Iomega
> F:\??SCSI??[[[[[[[[[[HDD]]]]]]]]]]?? ?FILES? ?????????(181 GB) Seagate
> ST1181677LCV ULTRA 160
> G:\??SCSI??[[[[[[[[[[HDD]]]]]]]]]]???GRAPHICS????????(181 GB) Seagate
> ST1181677LCV ULTRA 160
> H:\??IDE??????DVD±R/RW????_______________???(16X) NEC ND-3520A
> I:\ ??IDE??????DVD±R/RW????_______________???(16X) NEC ND-3520A
> J:\??IDE??????CD-ROM?????(CABLED AUDIO)????(4X) SONY
> K:\??IDE??????CD-R/RW ????(RE-WRITEABLE)????(24X) TDK Velo
>  
> ===================================================================
> STRATEGIES FOR RESTRAINING MICROSOFT FROM MANIPULATING DRIVE LETTER
> ASSIGNMENTS
 
Microsoft doesn't manipulate drive letter assignments.
 
> Weeks ago I ran into major grief by connecting/unconnecting drives whose
> drive letter assignments had been manipulated either during WINDOWS 2000
> PROFESSIONAL Setup or after.
 
Are these _your_ drives?  If so then somewhere along the way if the drive
letters were not the defaults then _you_ assigned the letters.
 
> I want to understand what steps I can take  
> to prevent a reoccurrence of the nightmare I ran into with my ATAPI
> drives, in particular.  I know of two ways I can control IDE drive
> assignments:
> 1.)  Physically cable one drive-per-W2K-reboot, in the order I wish
> 2.)  Modify drive letters from within W2K using
> ?????Control Panel \ Administrator Tools \ Computer Management \ DISK
> MANAGEMENT
 
Yep.  That's the tool that exists for the purpose.
 
> The conflict with Option 1 arises from my need to install W2K from a CD
> drive:  I have yet to figure out how to successfully back out of an
> install using one of my CD drives ->and have it STICK.  I can't tell you
> how many times I had all but
 
"Back out of an install"?  Once you've started the install you either finish
it or you don't.  There is no "back out".
 
> ?????A:\??FLOPPY
> ?????C:\??SCSI HDD
> ?????D:\??IDE DVD±R/RW
> connected, whereupon 4 reboots (and drive connects) later what was in
> the queue to be H:\ (the IDE DVD±R/RW drive first used to install W2K's
> CD Setup) reclaimed the ghost of its prior D:\ . . . and sent the whole
> architecture of my drive layout to hell in a handbasket.
 
Yep, it remembered what you set it to.  So what's the objection to going
into disk management and changing the letter?
 
> Like it's Evil Twin, Option 2 likewise manipulated my drive letter
> assignments through Control Panel - but if anything, the Control Panel
> option was WORSE:  I was flabbergasted at the liberties Microsoft took
> with changing my drive assignments.  One boot my Zip Drive was E.  Then
> my IDE Maxtor HDD would get E . . . and Zip became <snip, you get the
> picture>.
 
So assign the drive letters yourself.
 
> (put me through option 2 again and I'll just give up and shoot myself lol)
>  
> Indeed, the only drive that ever stayed put and remained the ONE thing I
> ever wanted it to be was my C drive.  When I asked myself why that was,
> I realized that it was because I had effectively restrained Microsoft at
> the BIOS level:
> ?????C: is jumpered to be SCSI "Device 1" (not 0, and I hope THAT isn't
> an issue)
> ?????"Device 1" is what I configured to boot to, and then saved, through
> the onboard SCSI utility
> ?????"SCSI" is what I configured to boot to, and then saved, through AMI
> BIOS
 
No, you had not "effectively restrained Microsoft at the BIOS level".  Once
the machine has booted the BIOS is not utilized at all by Windows 2000.  It
may use the CMOS setup information for reference but its operation is not
constrained by that information in any way.
 
> ===================================================================
> MY QUESTIONS:
>  
> Can I somehow set the Master/Slave settings in AMI BIOS in such a way
> that my layout (above) will not only be honored . . . Microsoft will be
> FORCED, at BIOS level, to recognize (for example) J:\ as my old Sony 4X
> . . . E:\ as my EJECT Zip Disk drive . . . K:\ as my TDK etc.?
 
No.
 
> How do I jumper the 2 CD drives when my DVD drives are ALREADY jumpered
> for Master and Slave?  Come to that ? how should I be jumpering ANY of
> the IDE drives, especially since my 2 GB HDD is slated to be Drive D:\ ?
>  
> Two (of the 6) IDE devices will need to go on that Promise card - any
> suggestions as to which two?
>  
> Anything special I should do as to the cabling?
>  
> Should I still resort to CABLE/BOOT, CABLE/BOOT to force the drive
> letters?  Then . . . how do I safely back out of the DVD drive used to
> first set up W2K and place it 4 drives down the hierarchy LATER in such
> a manner that it will STICK?
>  
> Thanks for any and all help!
 
Look, what you're doing sounds crazy.  Just set the damned machine up once,
and when it's running right don't monkey with it.  If you _need_ to move
drives around then do a backup beforehand and restore afterwards.
 
If you are going to be plugging and unplugging drives then make sure that
all drives that will be connected to a given location have the same drive
letter assignment.
>  
> Angel
 
--  
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

(Everyone) when I refer to "backing out" of the DVD±R/RW IDE D:\ drive I  
am referring to uncabling it after it has been used to install W2K from  
the Setup CD . . . in order to "back it back in" 4-drive installs later  
as H:\
 
Rod Speed wrote:
 > The main trick is to physically disconnect everything but the
 > drive you are installing 2K on and the cdrom drive you are
 > installing it from for the install and then add the rest of the
 > drives back in after the install has completed.
 
Hi Rod, first thank you so much for the reply.
 
The "main trick" you refer to was precisely what I did in Option 1.  I  
can't stress this enough:  W2K >>reassigned my drive letters (((AFTER)))  
I had all of the drives set up.  Here are the precise steps I went  
through in Option 1:
 
=====================================
1.  POWER OFF
CABLE
.. . . . . . A:\ FLOPPY
.. . . . . . C:\ SCSI HDD
.. . . . . . D:\ (one of my) DVD±R/RW
Nothing else connected
Power Up
=====================================
2.  BIOS
.. . . . . . Confirm SCSI ID "1" is set to boot
.. . . . . . Confirm AMI BIOS boot order:
.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . FLOPPY
.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . SCSI
.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ATAPI
.. . . . . . W2K Setup CD launches on D:\
.. . . . . . NTFS format C:\
.. . . . . . Install W2K
Reboot as prompted
=====================================
3.  W2K \ RUN
Install from the files I burned to a CD
.. . . . . . Service Pack 4
.. . . . . . Rollup 1
.. . . . . . Explorer 6.0
.. . . . . . Patches
Reboot as prompted
=====================================
4.  W2K \ DEVICE MANAGER
.. . . . . . Uninstall DVD±R/RW drive (D:\)
Power down
=====================================
5.  POWER OFF
UNCABLE:
.. . . . . . D:\ DVD±R/RW
CABLE
.. . . . . . D:\ IDE 2 GB HDD
Power Up
W2K reports IDE 2 GB HDD as D:\
Good.
=====================================
6.  POWER OFF
CABLE
.. . . . . . E:\ 100 MB ZIP DRIVE
Power Up
W2K reports IOMEGA ZIP DRIVE as E:\
Good.
=====================================
7.  POWER OFF
CABLE:
.. . . . . . F:\ 181 GB SCSI HDD
Power Up
W2K reports 181 GB SCSI HDD as F:\
Good.
=====================================
8.  POWER OFF
CABLE:
.. . . . . . G:\ 181 GB SCSI HDD
Power Up
W2K reports 181 GB SCSI HDD as G:\
Good.
=====================================
9.  POWER OFF
CABLE:
.. . . . . . H:\ DVD±R/RW
Power Up
W2K reports DVD±R/RW DRIVE as . . .
 
D:\
And here is precisely where it begins manipulating my drive letters.
So I .  . .
=====================================
10.  W2K \ ADMINISTRATOR TOOLS
.. . . . . . Computer Management \ DISK MANAGEMENT
.. . . . . . RESET the drives to be what I want their letters to be
Reboot . . .
 
And invariably, perhaps not on the first reboot, but 2 or 5 or 10  
reboots later — at some point ((AFTER)) I have corrected these  
REconfigured drive letters through Disk Management — H:\ reclaims D:\ .  
.. . and I go through this all over again.
 
This is why I was asking for a bulletproof method to lock down those  
drive letters once and for damned all.  I don't care how I do it, I just  
need to DO IT.
 
I can have all of them cabled at once, during the initial W2K Setup,  
reassign them to their correct sequence in Disk Management, and they  
will NOT stick.
 
I can CABLE/REBOOT, CABLE/REBOOT (as I've just described in steps 1-10,  
above) and I might get those drive letters to hang around for awhile . .  
.. but sure as shootin' W2K will mess with them somewhere down the line.
 
Now I had one other thought which is crude, and I'd hate to have to  
resort to it but I will if necessary:
 
I know how to generate the four W2K-Setup Boot floppies.  I cannot  
comprehend how W2K could be installed _in fact_ off of the equivalent of  
less than 6 MB worth of data, but . . . could this be done?
 
Some kind of "shell" of W2K that would allow me to install my DVD±R/RW  
IDE drive 5 drives down the "foodchain" as H:\?
 
Or would I butcher things miserably (or is this a moot point since a  
shell install of W2K isn't even possible off of the 4-floppy setup set)?
 
I'll reply to your other comments in a subsequent post.  Thank you again  
Rod!
 
Angel

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Rod Speed wrote:
 
 > SCSI has passed its useby date for that, its done with USB and  
firewire now.
 
Perhaps, but the P6DGU motherboard is the one I have.  And no.  I'm not  
purchasing a new one.  
 
 >>1.)  Physically cable one drive-per-W2K-reboot, in the order I wish
 >
 > That only applys with the initial location of the drive on the cable, it
 > doesn't apply when they are moved after the initial allocation of a  
letter.
 
"they" is . . . the HDD position on the cable? . . . the cable being  
disconnected? . . . the drive letter?
 
 > Doesn't happen if they aren't present during the 2K install.
 
Unfortunately it does.  These drives are being rearranged ((AFTER)) the  
computer has been fully assembled.
 
 > Nope, its just how the OS does things, it doesn't change the
 > letter of the boot drive at all from what it used first in the install.
 
If you read my post carefully that was the one exception I noted that  
DID work.  No, this problem is happening with the IDE DVD±R/RW drive  
first used to install M2K.  W2K appears to be collecting a footprint of  
the original install . . . and stubbornly defaulting back to that first  
footprint regardless of what I do.  I mercifully have NO grief from my  
SCSI C:\ boot drive, presumably because I've restrained Microsoft at the  
BIOS level to boot to -->SCSI, whether it likes it or not.
 
 >>Can I somehow set the Master/Slave settings in AMI BIOS in such a way  
that my
 >>layout (above) will not only be honored . . . Microsoft will
 >>be FORCED, at BIOS level, to recognize (for example) J:\ as my old
 >>Sony 4X . . . E:\ as my EJECT Zip Disk drive . . . K:\ as my TDK etc.?
 >
 > Nope.
 
Check.
 
 >>How do I jumper the 2 CD drives when my DVD drives are ALREADY  
jumpered for
 >>Master and Slave?
 >
 > The master and slave jumpering applys to a single cable.
 > You need a master and slave on each cable.
 
Well I learn something new every day.  Very helpful Rod.  Thank you!
 
 >>Come to that — how should I be jumpering ANY of the IDE drives,  
especially
 >>since my 2 GB HDD is slated to be Drive D:\ ?
 >
 > That's got nothing to do with the drive letters.
 
Check.
 
 >>Two (of the 6) IDE devices will need to go on that Promise card - any
 >>suggestions as to which two?
 >
 > They don't really like optical drives much.
 
Hmm.
 
 >>Anything special I should do as to the cabling?
 >
 > Not relevant to drive letters.
 
Let me pause here a moment, and forgive me if this sounds stupid (I'm  
learning and we all have to start somewhere lol).  Okay, the whole  
"Master / Slave" thing:  Does that have _anything_ whatsoever to do with  
DRIVE PRECEDENCE?  In other words, can you manipulate the "seek" order  
of the drives by their physical position on the cable?
 
 >>Should I still resort to CABLE/BOOT, CABLE/BOOT to force the drive  
letters?
 >
 > Wont work.
 
Well that we can agree on at least lol.
 
 >>Then . . . how do I safely back out of the DVD drive used to first  
set up W2K
 >>and place it 4 drives down the hierarchy LATER in such a manner that  
it will
 >>STICK?
 >
 > Just use the disk management to change the letter.
 
.. . . which does not stick.
 
 > The other thing to realize is that 2K doesn't even need drive letters
 > at all. You may well be getting obsessed about nothing much at all.
 
Now THAT IS a scary thought!  Most of the programs I use _must_, I  
repeat, MUST have a file path that does not change.  That is certainly  
the case with programs; that is absoLUTely the case when linking to  
graphics stored on my G:\ "Graphics" drive.  If you don't think it would  
be a nightmare to have these drive letters assigned arbitrarily,  
consider having to manually go in and change the drive paths for  
thousands of files.  Yes, there are utilities that can do this in the  
Registry -- and now you know WHY these utilities were created in the  
first place -- but that is just ludicrous.  Microsoft should not  
meddle with my drive letters once assigned (whether through hardware or  
software) PERIOD.  There is nothing more frightening to me than your  
comment that "W2K doesn't even need drive letters at all . . ."
 
Angel

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

boot device set to '0' SCSI ID?
 
"CURIOUS ANGEL" <byte.this@usa.net> wrote in message
news:11dnq8kt4bqi48@corp.supernews.com...
> Rod Speed wrote:
>
>  > SCSI has passed its useby date for that, its done with USB and
> firewire now.
>
> Perhaps, but the P6DGU motherboard is the one I have.  And no.  I'm not
> purchasing a new one.  
>
>  >>1.)  Physically cable one drive-per-W2K-reboot, in the order I wish
>  >
>  > That only applys with the initial location of the drive on the cable,
it
>  > doesn't apply when they are moved after the initial allocation of a
> letter.
>
> "they" is . . . the HDD position on the cable? . . . the cable being
> disconnected? . . . the drive letter?
>
>  > Doesn't happen if they aren't present during the 2K install.
>
> Unfortunately it does.  These drives are being rearranged ((AFTER)) the
> computer has been fully assembled.
>
>  > Nope, its just how the OS does things, it doesn't change the
>  > letter of the boot drive at all from what it used first in the install.
>
> If you read my post carefully that was the one exception I noted that
> DID work.  No, this problem is happening with the IDE DVD±R/RW drive
> first used to install M2K.  W2K appears to be collecting a footprint of
> the original install . . . and stubbornly defaulting back to that first
> footprint regardless of what I do.  I mercifully have NO grief from my
> SCSI C:\ boot drive, presumably because I've restrained Microsoft at the
> BIOS level to boot to -->SCSI, whether it likes it or not.
>
>  >>Can I somehow set the Master/Slave settings in AMI BIOS in such a way
> that my
>  >>layout (above) will not only be honored . . . Microsoft will
>  >>be FORCED, at BIOS level, to recognize (for example) J:\ as my old
>  >>Sony 4X . . . E:\ as my EJECT Zip Disk drive . . . K:\ as my TDK etc.?
>  >
>  > Nope.
>
> Check.
>
>  >>How do I jumper the 2 CD drives when my DVD drives are ALREADY
> jumpered for
>  >>Master and Slave?
>  >
>  > The master and slave jumpering applys to a single cable.
>  > You need a master and slave on each cable.
>
> Well I learn something new every day.  Very helpful Rod.  Thank you!
>
>  >>Come to that — how should I be jumpering ANY of the IDE drives,
> especially
>  >>since my 2 GB HDD is slated to be Drive D:\ ?
>  >
>  > That's got nothing to do with the drive letters.
>
> Check.
>
>  >>Two (of the 6) IDE devices will need to go on that Promise card - any
>  >>suggestions as to which two?
>  >
>  > They don't really like optical drives much.
>
> Hmm.
>
>  >>Anything special I should do as to the cabling?
>  >
>  > Not relevant to drive letters.
>
> Let me pause here a moment, and forgive me if this sounds stupid (I'm
> learning and we all have to start somewhere lol).  Okay, the whole
> "Master / Slave" thing:  Does that have _anything_ whatsoever to do with
> DRIVE PRECEDENCE?  In other words, can you manipulate the "seek" order
> of the drives by their physical position on the cable?
>
>  >>Should I still resort to CABLE/BOOT, CABLE/BOOT to force the drive
> letters?
>  >
>  > Wont work.
>
> Well that we can agree on at least lol.
>
>  >>Then . . . how do I safely back out of the DVD drive used to first
> set up W2K
>  >>and place it 4 drives down the hierarchy LATER in such a manner that
> it will
>  >>STICK?
>  >
>  > Just use the disk management to change the letter.
>
> . . . which does not stick.
>
>  > The other thing to realize is that 2K doesn't even need drive letters
>  > at all. You may well be getting obsessed about nothing much at all.
>
> Now THAT IS a scary thought!  Most of the programs I use _must_, I
> repeat, MUST have a file path that does not change.  That is certainly
> the case with programs; that is absoLUTely the case when linking to
> graphics stored on my G:\ "Graphics" drive.  If you don't think it would
> be a nightmare to have these drive letters assigned arbitrarily,
> consider having to manually go in and change the drive paths for
> thousands of files.  Yes, there are utilities that can do this in the
> Registry -- and now you know WHY these utilities were created in the
> first place -- but that is just ludicrous.  Microsoft should not
> meddle with my drive letters once assigned (whether through hardware or
> software) PERIOD.  There is nothing more frightening to me than your
> comment that "W2K doesn't even need drive letters at all . . ."
>
> Angel

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

CURIOUS ANGEL <byte.this@usa.net> wrote
 
> (Everyone) when I refer to "backing out" of the DVD±R/RW IDE D:\
> drive I am referring to uncabling it after it has been used to install W2K  
> from the Setup CD . . . in order to "back it back in"
> 4-drive installs later as H:\
 
> Rod Speed wrote:
 
>> The main trick is to physically disconnect everything but the drive you are  
>> installing 2K on and the cdrom drive you are installing it from for the  
>> install and then add the rest of the drives back in after the install has  
>> completed.
 
> Hi Rod, first thank you so much for the reply.
 
> The "main trick" you refer to was precisely what I did in Option 1.
 
OK, you didnt say that very clearly at all.
 
> I can't stress this enough:  W2K >>reassigned my drive letters (((AFTER))) I  
> had all of the drives set up.
 
Dont believe that. You must have stuffed up the addition
of the extra drives after the install had completed.
 
> Here are the precise steps I went through in Option 1:
 
> =====================================
> 1.  POWER OFF
> CABLE
> . . . . . . A:\ FLOPPY
> . . . . . . C:\ SCSI HDD
> . . . . . . D:\ (one of my) DVD±R/RW
> Nothing else connected
> Power Up
> =====================================
> 2.  BIOS
> . . . . . . Confirm SCSI ID "1" is set to boot
> . . . . . . Confirm AMI BIOS boot order:
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . FLOPPY
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . SCSI
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ATAPI
> . . . . . . W2K Setup CD launches on D:\
> . . . . . . NTFS format C:\
> . . . . . . Install W2K
> Reboot as prompted
> =====================================
> 3.  W2K \ RUN
> Install from the files I burned to a CD
> . . . . . . Service Pack 4
> . . . . . . Rollup 1
> . . . . . . Explorer 6.0
> . . . . . . Patches
> Reboot as prompted
> =====================================
> 4.  W2K \ DEVICE MANAGER
> . . . . . . Uninstall DVD±R/RW drive (D:\)
> Power down
> =====================================
> 5.  POWER OFF
> UNCABLE:
> . . . . . . D:\ DVD±R/RW
 
That's where you stuffed it up. You should have just reassigned
the letter to what you wanted it to be, say R etc.
 
> CABLE
> . . . . . . D:\ IDE 2 GB HDD
> Power Up
> W2K reports IDE 2 GB HDD as D:\
> Good.
> =====================================
> 6.  POWER OFF
> CABLE
> . . . . . . E:\ 100 MB ZIP DRIVE
> Power Up
> W2K reports IOMEGA ZIP DRIVE as E:\
> Good.
> =====================================
> 7.  POWER OFF
> CABLE:
> . . . . . . F:\ 181 GB SCSI HDD
> Power Up
> W2K reports 181 GB SCSI HDD as F:\
> Good.
> =====================================
> 8.  POWER OFF
> CABLE:
> . . . . . . G:\ 181 GB SCSI HDD
> Power Up
> W2K reports 181 GB SCSI HDD as G:\
> Good.
> =====================================
> 9.  POWER OFF
> CABLE:
> . . . . . . H:\ DVD±R/RW
> Power Up
> W2K reports DVD±R/RW DRIVE as . . .
>
> D:\
> And here is precisely where it begins manipulating my drive letters.
 
Thats where you stuffed it up. If you had assigned it the letter R
say in step 4, and left it connected, that wouldnt have happened.
 
> So I .  . .
> =====================================
> 10.  W2K \ ADMINISTRATOR TOOLS
> . . . . . . Computer Management \ DISK MANAGEMENT
> . . . . . . RESET the drives to be what I want their letters to be
> Reboot . . .
 
> And invariably, perhaps not on the first reboot, but 2 or 5 or 10
> reboots later — at some point ((AFTER)) I have corrected these
> REconfigured drive letters through Disk Management — H:\ reclaims D:\
> . . . and I go through this all over again.
 
> This is why I was asking for a bulletproof method to lock down those drive  
> letters once and for damned all.  I don't care how I do it, I just need to DO  
> IT.
 
See above.
 
> I can have all of them cabled at once, during the initial W2K Setup, reassign  
> them to their correct sequence in Disk Management, and they will NOT stick.
 
> I can CABLE/REBOOT, CABLE/REBOOT (as I've just described in steps 1-10, above)  
> and I might get those drive letters to hang around for awhile . . . but sure  
> as shootin' W2K will mess with them somewhere down the line.
 
It wont if you do it the way I explained.
 
> Now I had one other thought which is crude, and I'd hate to have to resort to  
> it but I will if necessary:
 
> I know how to generate the four W2K-Setup Boot floppies.  I cannot
> comprehend how W2K could be installed _in fact_ off of the equivalent
> of less than 6 MB worth of data, but . . . could this be done?
 
Yes, but there is no point in going that route.
 
> Some kind of "shell" of W2K that would allow me to install my DVD±R/RW IDE  
> drive 5 drives down the "foodchain" as H:\?
 
You just have to assign it the letter H in step 4 and dont remove it.
 
> Or would I butcher things miserably (or is this a moot point since a
> shell install of W2K isn't even possible off of the 4-floppy setup set)?
 
There is no such animal as a 'shell install' anyway.
 
> I'll reply to your other comments in a subsequent post.  Thank you again Rod!
 
No problem.

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

CURIOUS ANGEL <byte.this@usa.net> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> CURIOUS ANGEL <byte.this@usa.net> wrote
 
>>> MY COMPUTER is SCSI for the express purpose of being able to break the IDE  
>>> barrier and add multiple gadgets and gewgaws in the future.
 
>> SCSI has passed its useby date for that, its done with USB and firewire now.
 
> Perhaps,
 
No perhaps about it. And there is no 'IDE barrier', since
IDE drives are much bigger than the available SCSI drives.
 
> but the P6DGU motherboard is the one I have.  And no.  I'm not purchasing a  
> new one.  
 
No need to, just add USB and firewire
multiple gadgets and gewgaws in the future.
 
You cant even buy most of them in SCSI format anymore.
 
>>> 1.)  Physically cable one drive-per-W2K-reboot, in the order I wish
 
>> That only applys with the initial location of the drive on the cable, it  
>> doesn't apply when they are moved after the initial allocation of a letter.
 
> "they" is . . . the HDD position on the cable? . . .
 
Yes.
 
> the cable being disconnected? . . . the drive letter?
 
Nope.
 
>>> Like it's Evil Twin, Option 2 likewise manipulated my drive letter
>>> assignments through Control Panel - but if anything, the Control Panel
>>> option was WORSE:  I was flabbergasted at the liberties Microsoft took
>>> with changing my drive assignments.  One boot my Zip Drive was E. Then my  
>>> IDE Maxtor HDD would get E . . . and Zip became <snip, you get the picture>.
 
>> Doesn't happen if they aren't present during the 2K install.
 
> Unfortunately it does.  These drives are being rearranged ((AFTER)) the  
> computer has been fully assembled.
 
Only because you confused it by temporarily removing the DVDRW drive.
 
>>> Indeed, the only drive that ever stayed put and remained the ONE thing I  
>>> ever
>>> wanted it to be was my C drive.  When I asked myself why that was, I  
>>> realized
>>> that it was because I had effectively restrained Microsoft at the BIOS  
>>> level:
 
>> Nope, its just how the OS does things, it doesn't change the
>> letter of the boot drive at all from what it used first in the install.
 
> If you read my post carefully that was the one exception I noted that DID  
> work.
 
That particular comment isnt even comprehensible.
 
> No, this problem is happening with the IDE DVD±R/RW drive
> first used to install M2K.  W2K appears to be collecting a footprint
> of the original install . . . and stubbornly defaulting back to that
> first footprint regardless of what I do.
 
You didnt try reassigning the letter the DVDRW got
during the install in step 4. That will certainly work.
 
And that comment above was in reference to your comment
about constraining what MS does by what you did in the bios.
You didnt, 2K just doesnt reassign the boot drive letter. It isnt
even that easy to change it if you want to change it later.
 
> I mercifully have NO grief from my SCSI C:\ boot drive, presumably because  
> I've restrained Microsoft at the BIOS level to boot to -->SCSI, whether it  
> likes it or not.
 
See just above.
 
>>> Can I somehow set the Master/Slave settings in AMI BIOS in such a way that  
>>> my layout (above) will not only be honored . . . Microsoft will be FORCED,  
>>> at BIOS level, to recognize (for example) J:\ as my old Sony 4X . . . E:\ as  
>>> my EJECT Zip Disk drive . . . K:\ as my TDK etc.?
 
>> Nope.
 
> Check.
 
>>> How do I jumper the 2 CD drives when my DVD drives are ALREADY jumpered for  
>>> Master and Slave?
 
>> The master and slave jumpering applys to a single cable.
>> You need a master and slave on each cable.
 
> Well I learn something new every day.  Very helpful Rod.  Thank you!
 
>>> Come to that — how should I be jumpering ANY of the IDE drives,
>>> especially since my 2 GB HDD is slated to be Drive D:\ ?
 
>> That's got nothing to do with the drive letters.
 
> Check.
 
>>> Two (of the 6) IDE devices will need to go on that Promise card - any  
>>> suggestions as to which two?
 
>> They don't really like optical drives much.
 
> Hmm.
 
>>> Anything special I should do as to the cabling?
 
>> Not relevant to drive letters.
 
> Let me pause here a moment, and forgive me if this sounds stupid (I'm learning  
> and we all have to start somewhere lol).  Okay, the whole
> "Master / Slave" thing:  Does that have _anything_ whatsoever to do
> with DRIVE PRECEDENCE?  In other words, can you manipulate the "seek" order of  
> the drives by their physical position on the cable?
 
Nope. The drive that gets the command to seek first will do that first.
 
>>> Should I still resort to CABLE/BOOT, CABLE/BOOT to force the drive letters?
 
>> Wont work.
 
> Well that we can agree on at least lol.
 
>>> Then . . . how do I safely back out of the DVD drive used to first set up  
>>> W2K and place it 4 drives down the hierarchy LATER in such a manner that it  
>>> will STICK?
 
>> Just use the disk management to change the letter.
 
> . . . which does not stick.
 
Yes it does if you change the letter then DVDRW got during the
install in step 4 and dont remove it while adding the extra drives.
 
>> The other thing to realize is that 2K doesn't even need drive letters
>> at all. You may well be getting obsessed about nothing much at all.
 
> Now THAT IS a scary thought!  Most of the programs I use _must_, I repeat,  
> MUST have a file path that does not change.  That is certainly
> the case with programs; that is absoLUTely the case when linking to
> graphics stored on my G:\ "Graphics" drive.  If you don't think it
> would be a nightmare to have these drive letters assigned arbitrarily,
 
I didnt say anything about arbitrarily, I JUST said that you
dont need to use drive letters at all, just use a fully qualified
path name using the drive name instead of a letter.
 
> consider having to manually go in and change the drive paths for
> thousands of files.  Yes, there are utilities that can do this in the
> Registry -- and now you know WHY these utilities were created in the first  
> place -- but that is just ludicrous.  Microsoft should not
> meddle with my drive letters once assigned (whether through hardware
> or software) PERIOD.  There is nothing more frightening to me than
> your comment that "W2K doesn't even need drive letters at all . . ."
 
You're confused, I wasnt talking about changing drive letters,
just saying that drive letters arent even needed at all, you can
identify the drive by its name instead of a letter.

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

> =====================================
> 4.  W2K \ DEVICE MANAGER
> . . . . . . Uninstall DVD±R/RW drive (D:\)
> Power down
> =====================================
 
Why uninstall?
Just change letter to R: or so.
 
 
 
> 5.  POWER OFF
> UNCABLE:
> . . . . . . D:\ DVD±R/RW
> CABLE
> . . . . . . D:\ IDE 2 GB HDD
> Power Up
> W2K reports IDE 2 GB HDD as D:\
> Good.
 
So you had 2GB disk formatted already?
That might complicate things later....
 
> 8.  POWER OFF
> CABLE:
> . . . . . . G:\ 181 GB SCSI HDD
> Power Up
> W2K reports 181 GB SCSI HDD as G:\
> Good.
 
Same as above.
 
> =====================================
> 9.  POWER OFF
> CABLE:
> . . . . . . H:\ DVD±R/RW
> Power Up
> W2K reports DVD±R/RW DRIVE as . . .
>
> D:\
 
Because it remembered it as D:
 
> And here is precisely where it begins manipulating my drive letters.
> So I .  . .
> =====================================
> 10.  W2K \ ADMINISTRATOR TOOLS
> . . . . . . Computer Management \ DISK MANAGEMENT
> . . . . . . RESET the drives to be what I want their letters to be
> Reboot . . .
>
> And invariably, perhaps not on the first reboot, but 2 or 5 or 10
> reboots later — at some point ((AFTER)) I have corrected these
> REconfigured drive letters through Disk Management — H:\ reclaims D:\ .
> . . and I go through this all over again.
 
Because you did't manage drive letters properly from beginning.
 
> This is why I was asking for a bulletproof method to lock down those
> drive letters once and for damned all.  I don't care how I do it, I just
> need to DO IT.
 
Learn how MS W2K "Mount Manager" works.
 
Manage keys in:
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\MountedDevices]
manually, if you want to control Mount Manager behavior.
 
Find out which GUID belongs to which volume and assign key
\DosDevices\\<letter>:
accordingly to your desire.
 
> I can have all of them cabled at once, during the initial W2K Setup,
> reassign them to their correct sequence in Disk Management, and they
> will NOT stick.
 
They would, if drives had no volumes/partitons at the time of W2K setup.