Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

Does anyone have any experience with the subject motherboard, or the
Nvidia integrated video in general? I haven't looked at the low end of the
business for *years*, so am looking for some help.

History: A friend's computer (Celeron 600) fried its brains recently and
she needs a new system, but has little money. The son wants the world
(who doesn't), but the target I've been given is $400. I was looking for
what could be done as cheaply as possible and came up with the following
(all from NewEgg):

Motherboard - Abit N7F-M $89
Processor - AMD Athlon XP 2400+ $84
Memory - Kingston PC2700 256MB $42
Case - Antec 1650B $60 + 16$ S&H
Disk drive - Seagate 40GB $52.50
CD bunrner - Lite On $29
DVD-ROM - Liet On $27
-----
$399.50 (pretty close to target

The son wants to copy CDs and wants DVD capability (hence the two drives,
and no DVD writer). He also wanted 512MB, but I don't see where that's
comming from in the budget. Frankly though, I'm amazed at what one can
put together for small money (she has a monitor, I'm giving here a long-
unused modem, the floppy can ba salvaged...).

Comments?

--
Keith

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:04:41 -0400, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
>
>Does anyone have any experience with the subject motherboard, or the
>Nvidia integrated video in general? I haven't looked at the low end of the
>business for *years*, so am looking for some help.

Haven't used that particular board, but I do have a bit of experience
with nVidia integrated video. In general it's pretty good, though it
can be a tiny bit tricky, particularly the nForce2 integrated video.
The first thing, which you seem to already have covered, is to be sure
you stick with PC2700 memory. I don't know if it was just the
particular board I used (Asus A7N8X-VM, nearly identical board to the
Abit one bellow) would absolutely not work with PC3200 memory and the
integrated video.

Secondly, if they are running Linux, you have to use Lilo as Grub does
not work with this chipset for some reason. If they're staying in
Windows land this shouldn't be an issue. However what WAS an issue I
ran into in Windows land was that the nForce IDE drivers were REALLY
picky, to the extent that it completely wrecked my WinXP installation
and made it impossible to boot Windows with any motherboard, I had to
re-install. You'll probably be looking at a fresh Windows install to
get the drivers working properly on this system.


In the end I got rather fed up with the Asus board and returned it for
an ASRock K7S41GX. Dirt-cheap, no frills boards, sells for $42 from
Newegg, but it works. I've actually been pleasantly surprised by it,
the board certainly doesn't do anything fancy and the is noticeable
static from the integrated sound at mid to high volume, but otherwise
it's pretty much just worked. Combine that with a $40 ATI Radeon 9000
video card and you might well come out ahead both in terms of cost and
performance (there is also integrated video on this board, fine for a
backup but somewhat weak for regular use). The downside to this board
is that it only has 2 PCI slots, and if you're using a modem in one
then you're pretty limited.

>History: A friend's computer (Celeron 600) fried its brains recently and
>she needs a new system, but has little money. The son wants the world
>(who doesn't), but the target I've been given is $400. I was looking for
>what could be done as cheaply as possible and came up with the following
>(all from NewEgg):
>
>Motherboard - Abit N7F-M $89
>Processor - AMD Athlon XP 2400+ $84
>Memory - Kingston PC2700 256MB $42
>Case - Antec 1650B $60 + 16$ S&H
>Disk drive - Seagate 40GB $52.50
>CD bunrner - Lite On $29
>DVD-ROM - Liet On $27
> -----
> $399.50 (pretty close to target
>
>The son wants to copy CDs and wants DVD capability (hence the two drives,
>and no DVD writer). He also wanted 512MB, but I don't see where that's
>comming from in the budget. Frankly though, I'm amazed at what one can
>put together for small money (she has a monitor, I'm giving here a long-
>unused modem, the floppy can ba salvaged...).

You might be able to trim a few dollars off the cost of the case by
buying one locally. Even a fairly high-quality case like an Antec can
often be found cheaper locally when you factor shipping in. Buying in
a store also might let you check out some lower cost cases to see if
they are sufficient sturdy to measure up (though the power supply is a
rather trickier issue, the main reason why sticking with a decent
quality case isn't a bad idea).

As for the memory, you might be able to find something a bit cheaper,
and remember that this is a dual-channel board, so your best bet is to
add memory in matched pairs. You might be able to find some slightly
cheaper name-brand memory, Newegg has a handful of low cost models
that come with lifetime warranties. Might not be top quality stuff,
but I've recently come to realize that Kingston memory is far from top
quality stuff either.

-------------
Tony Hill
hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

In article <hcnkl0t9fc53cs6t9qt5o388dlcc00ur8q@4ax.com>, hilla_nospam_
20@yahoo.ca says...
> On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:04:41 -0400, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
> >
> >Does anyone have any experience with the subject motherboard, or the
> >Nvidia integrated video in general? I haven't looked at the low end of the
> >business for *years*, so am looking for some help.
>
> Haven't used that particular board, but I do have a bit of experience
> with nVidia integrated video. In general it's pretty good, though it
> can be a tiny bit tricky, particularly the nForce2 integrated video.
> The first thing, which you seem to already have covered, is to be sure
> you stick with PC2700 memory.

I chose PC2700 memory to match the processor's FSB. Crucial lists all
varieties (PC2100/2700/3200/4000) as compatible,though decided not to
go with them because of cost (I'd spend the $10 difference, but..)

> I don't know if it was just the
> particular board I used (Asus A7N8X-VM, nearly identical board to the
> Abit one bellow) would absolutely not work with PC3200 memory and the
> integrated video.

The Asus board is a uATX, so I didn't look into it much further. I may
look again though (and shave another $10). Not working with PC3200
memory is pretty amazing though.

In what other ways is the video "picky"?

> Secondly, if they are running Linux, you have to use Lilo as Grub does
> not work with this chipset for some reason. If they're staying in
> Windows land this shouldn't be an issue.

Win98 (I have a license "left over" ).

> However what WAS an issue I
> ran into in Windows land was that the nForce IDE drivers were REALLY
> picky, to the extent that it completely wrecked my WinXP installation
> and made it impossible to boot Windows with any motherboard, I had to
> re-install. You'll probably be looking at a fresh Windows install to
> get the drivers working properly on this system.

It's a new system, it'll have a fresh install. I suppose I could try
to salvage the install off the old system, but I'm not sure it's worth
the effort, particularly given your input here.
>
> In the end I got rather fed up with the Asus board and returned it for
> an ASRock K7S41GX. Dirt-cheap, no frills boards, sells for $42 from
> Newegg, but it works. I've actually been pleasantly surprised by it,
> the board certainly doesn't do anything fancy and the is noticeable
> static from the integrated sound at mid to high volume, but otherwise
> it's pretty much just worked. Combine that with a $40 ATI Radeon 9000
> video card and you might well come out ahead both in terms of cost and
> performance (there is also integrated video on this board, fine for a
> backup but somewhat weak for regular use). The downside to this board
> is that it only has 2 PCI slots, and if you're using a modem in one
> then you're pretty limited.

"ASRock" gives me the willies, as in all the PCChips junk sold in other
clothes years ago. ...maybe though. At least I know *one* works. ;-)
>
> >History: A friend's computer (Celeron 600) fried its brains recently and
> >she needs a new system, but has little money. The son wants the world
> >(who doesn't), but the target I've been given is $400. I was looking for
> >what could be done as cheaply as possible and came up with the following
> >(all from NewEgg):
> >
> >Motherboard - Abit N7F-M $89
> >Processor - AMD Athlon XP 2400+ $84
> >Memory - Kingston PC2700 256MB $42
> >Case - Antec 1650B $60 + 16$ S&H
> >Disk drive - Seagate 40GB $52.50
> >CD bunrner - Lite On $29
> >DVD-ROM - Liet On $27
> > -----
> > $399.50 (pretty close to target
> >
> >The son wants to copy CDs and wants DVD capability (hence the two drives,
> >and no DVD writer). He also wanted 512MB, but I don't see where that's
> >comming from in the budget. Frankly though, I'm amazed at what one can
> >put together for small money (she has a monitor, I'm giving here a long-
> >unused modem, the floppy can ba salvaged...).
>
> You might be able to trim a few dollars off the cost of the case by
> buying one locally. Even a fairly high-quality case like an Antec can
> often be found cheaper locally when you factor shipping in. Buying in
> a store also might let you check out some lower cost cases to see if
> they are sufficient sturdy to measure up (though the power supply is a
> rather trickier issue, the main reason why sticking with a decent
> quality case isn't a bad idea).

Locally? Shirley you jest! BestBuy is the only store around (where
around is between Boston, NYC, and perhaps Montreal) that sells cases
and they're higher than a kite (in all senses of the phrase).

> As for the memory, you might be able to find something a bit cheaper,
> and remember that this is a dual-channel board, so your best bet is to
> add memory in matched pairs. You might be able to find some slightly
> cheaper name-brand memory, Newegg has a handful of low cost models
> that come with lifetime warranties. Might not be top quality stuff,
> but I've recently come to realize that Kingston memory is far from top
> quality stuff either.

Hmm, I was going Kingston because I thought they were reputable, and
sold through NewEgg (one stop shopping). Worth some thought though.
Maybe I'll take a flier on bottom-feeding memory and hope NewEgg stands
behind it, at least up-front.

Thanks for the input.

--
Keith

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:07:21 -0400, Keith R. Williams <krw@att.bizzzz>
wrote:
>
>In article <hcnkl0t9fc53cs6t9qt5o388dlcc00ur8q@4ax.com>, hilla_nospam_
>20@yahoo.ca says...
>> On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:04:41 -0400, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
>> I don't know if it was just the
>> particular board I used (Asus A7N8X-VM, nearly identical board to the
>> Abit one bellow) would absolutely not work with PC3200 memory and the
>> integrated video.
>
>The Asus board is a uATX, so I didn't look into it much further. I may
>look again though (and shave another $10). Not working with PC3200
>memory is pretty amazing though.

Yup, that one kind of blew me away. It didn't play nice with my
PC2100 memory either, despite the fact that I was running at a
133/266MHz bus speed processor.

>In what other ways is the video "picky"?

Well, for the brief bit that I had it running in Windows the drivers
were being a bit uncooperative, though that may have been more related
to the problems I was having installing overtop of a previous install.

>> Secondly, if they are running Linux, you have to use Lilo as Grub does
>> not work with this chipset for some reason. If they're staying in
>> Windows land this shouldn't be an issue.
>
>Win98 (I have a license "left over" ).
>
>> However what WAS an issue I
>> ran into in Windows land was that the nForce IDE drivers were REALLY
>> picky, to the extent that it completely wrecked my WinXP installation
>> and made it impossible to boot Windows with any motherboard, I had to
>> re-install. You'll probably be looking at a fresh Windows install to
>> get the drivers working properly on this system.
>
>It's a new system, it'll have a fresh install. I suppose I could try
>to salvage the install off the old system, but I'm not sure it's worth
>the effort, particularly given your input here.

Good plan!
>
>> In the end I got rather fed up with the Asus board and returned it for
>> an ASRock K7S41GX. Dirt-cheap, no frills boards, sells for $42 from
>> Newegg, but it works. I've actually been pleasantly surprised by it,
>> the board certainly doesn't do anything fancy and the is noticeable
>> static from the integrated sound at mid to high volume, but otherwise
>> it's pretty much just worked. Combine that with a $40 ATI Radeon 9000
>> video card and you might well come out ahead both in terms of cost and
>> performance (there is also integrated video on this board, fine for a
>> backup but somewhat weak for regular use). The downside to this board
>> is that it only has 2 PCI slots, and if you're using a modem in one
>> then you're pretty limited.
>
>"ASRock" gives me the willies, as in all the PCChips junk sold in other
>clothes years ago. ...maybe though. At least I know *one* works. ;-)

Hehe, yeah, I have to say that it's not exactly a name that inspires
confidence. FWIW it's not quite PCChips stuff, it's actually an Asus
brand name but with all production outsourced to ECS. Of course,
given that ECS also fabs PCChips boards I wouldn't be surprised if
there were some similarities between the designs.

>Locally? Shirley you jest! BestBuy is the only store around (where
>around is between Boston, NYC, and perhaps Montreal) that sells cases
>and they're higher than a kite (in all senses of the phrase).

Well that's what ya get for living in the middle of nowhere! :>

>> As for the memory, you might be able to find something a bit cheaper,
>> and remember that this is a dual-channel board, so your best bet is to
>> add memory in matched pairs. You might be able to find some slightly
>> cheaper name-brand memory, Newegg has a handful of low cost models
>> that come with lifetime warranties. Might not be top quality stuff,
>> but I've recently come to realize that Kingston memory is far from top
>> quality stuff either.
>
>Hmm, I was going Kingston because I thought they were reputable, and

Kingston as a company is reputable enough, though I've found their
memory to fail just as much as the little mom 'n pop brand name
memory. Might be a step up from generics in terms of quality, but I
wouldn't place it in the same sort of league as Crucial for example.

-------------
Tony Hill
hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca> wrote:

>Kingston as a company is reputable enough, though I've found their
>memory to fail just as much as the little mom 'n pop brand name
>memory. Might be a step up from generics in terms of quality, but I
>wouldn't place it in the same sort of league as Crucial for example.

At least Kingston isn't "premium priced", as it used to be... I've
been buying their "value ram" as a default for machines I build for
work. For personal machines, I've been buying Buffalo brand memory,
which I like because they tell you exactly what chips they use. It's
worked great and it's also very competitively priced.

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:04:41 -0400, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:

>
>Does anyone have any experience with the subject motherboard, or the
>Nvidia integrated video in general? I haven't looked at the low end of the
>business for *years*, so am looking for some help.

I've done one nForce2 integrated video system - an MSI K7N2G-L which is a
full ATX, with 5 PCI slots & 3 memory slots, like the N7F-M you're looking
at. It's still listed at the MSI Global site but not at the U.S. site any
more and I don't see it at NewEgg or the other few e-tail sites I've looked
at. It's kinda amazing now, how mbrd models come and then go... disappear
within a matter of months... in fact Abit looks like the only "reputable"
mfr still offering a non-micro-ATX version of that config.

Anyway, install of WinXP was very smooth - no probs at all just loading
chipset & video drivers off the MSI/nForce2-IGP CD-ROM. IIRC I used
2x256MB Kingston HyperX PC2700 since they were on special at the time for a
few $$ over the cost of ValueRAM. I'd think Win98 would be as smooth.

The only problem I ran into was because, after running Seagate diags on the
drive, I figured I might as well use their handy-dandy partition+format
utility to prep the disk partitions rather than the M$ one. Symantec
Anti-Virus didn't like something about it - MBR?... boot records? - and I
had to use the WinXP repair utility to fix it.

>History: A friend's computer (Celeron 600) fried its brains recently and
>she needs a new system, but has little money. The son wants the world
>(who doesn't), but the target I've been given is $400. I was looking for
>what could be done as cheaply as possible and came up with the following
>(all from NewEgg):
>
>Motherboard - Abit N7F-M $89
>Processor - AMD Athlon XP 2400+ $84
>Memory - Kingston PC2700 256MB $42
>Case - Antec 1650B $60 + 16$ S&H
>Disk drive - Seagate 40GB $52.50
>CD bunrner - Lite On $29
>DVD-ROM - Liet On $27
> -----
> $399.50 (pretty close to target
>
>The son wants to copy CDs and wants DVD capability (hence the two drives,
>and no DVD writer). He also wanted 512MB, but I don't see where that's
>comming from in the budget. Frankly though, I'm amazed at what one can
>put together for small money (she has a monitor, I'm giving here a long-
>unused modem, the floppy can ba salvaged...).

I think I'd advise breaking the budget for the 2x256MB DIMMs - $40. is
nothing and worth the extra IMO... or maybe the son can save his pennies
for a future purchase... or have a word with Santa:-)

>Comments?

Like I said above, I don't see another mbrd which compares. Dean, bless
his cotton socks... may all his Worlds be Real:-), never liked Abit but I
have to think they've cleaned up their act since those days... given their
popularity with gamers, overclockers etc.

I have a couple of K8 systems with the same SL350 P/S but in the SX635BII
case. When you consider the P/S alone lists at NewEgg for $41. the price
is certainly good on the case. It's a few pounds lighter than their
Chenming jobs but should be OK - let us know how you get on with the build
on it. Maybe the son'd prefer one of the blue-light err, specials??:-)

On the memory discussion with Tony, re: Kingston, the only thing I've seen
is that in the K8 and nForce2 systems, their PC3200 stuff has not been
running too great - their Web site doesn't list it as compatible for some
systems and there're tales of tweaking voltage to 2.65-2.7V to get it to
run. Here's an interesting note:
http://www.kingston.com/support/faqs/memory/abit_1.asp

On the strength of the above, I went with the Kingmax SuperRAM, instead of
Kingston, in our K8 systems and it's working fine - Memtest86+ shows it as
running at advertized timing of 2.5-4-4-8 though I've no idea if that's
chipset register values or just a read-out of SPD. It's recommended by MSI
for most of their mbrds and by Abit I believe; since Kingmax is located in
Hsin-Chu Park I imagine it's a short distance away from some of the mbrd
makers. The only thing I don't like about it is the chip source is
obliterated with their own logo.

Oh it just occurred to me that there was some limit on HDD size with the
standard Win98 FDISK. Maybe it was 60GB so you might be OK but all the
same it'd be worth downloading the newer FDISK from M$'s site.

Good luck with it and keep us posted.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 07:51:32 -0500, chrisv wrote:

> Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>>Kingston as a company is reputable enough, though I've found their
>>memory to fail just as much as the little mom 'n pop brand name
>>memory. Might be a step up from generics in terms of quality, but I
>>wouldn't place it in the same sort of league as Crucial for example.
>
> At least Kingston isn't "premium priced", as it used to be... I've
> been buying their "value ram" as a default for machines I build for
> work. For personal machines, I've been buying Buffalo brand memory,
> which I like because they tell you exactly what chips they use. It's
> worked great and it's also very competitively priced.

"Buffalo" was the same price as KVR. Even Crucial isn't really *that*
much higher ($8/256MB stick), when one considers shippping. Me? I pay
the money. In this case it's not my money though; obviously others have
different priorities.

--
Keith

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

keith wrote:

> On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 04:15:11 -0400, George Macdonald wrote:

>> There's always the extended length IDE cables - exceed the specs I
>> suppose but they've worked OK for me.

> I have one around somewhere, but the distance between the two drives still
> isn't right to plug in the CDs. YOY don't board manufacturers put the IDE
> connectors closer to the drives? I guess they're the poor cousins to the
> FSB and memory. ;-)

the best IDE cables are the fairly new round IDE
cables, provided that they are sturdy. www.newegg.com
has a long list of MANY round IDE cables.

best i've gotten (so far) are Antec Cobra
and the 3 (2 IDE/1 floppy) included with
a DFI Lanparty mobo (Intel)

bill

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

keith wrote:

> On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 03:07:40 -0400, George Macdonald wrote:

....

>> Anyway, install of WinXP was very smooth - no probs at all just loading
>> chipset & video drivers off the MSI/nForce2-IGP CD-ROM. IIRC I used
>> 2x256MB Kingston HyperX PC2700 since they were on special at the time
>> for a few $$ over the cost of ValueRAM. I'd think Win98 would be as
>> smooth.

....

> That's what I'm hopeing. Again, I have a Win98 license or two I've never
> used. I'd like to go XP for her, but the budget doesn't allow such things.


for win/dos, 98SE is THE one (forget WinMe,
coz it is a TOTAL POS!)

just do NOT put more than 512MB of memory
on 9x or you WILL be very sorry!!

re WinXP, i'd go with Win2000 SP4
(that's a hunch and not experience)

bill

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 13:58:31 -0500, willbill wrote:

> keith wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 04:15:11 -0400, George Macdonald wrote:
>
>>> There's always the extended length IDE cables - exceed the specs I
>>> suppose but they've worked OK for me.
>
>> I have one around somewhere, but the distance between the two drives still
>> isn't right to plug in the CDs. YOY don't board manufacturers put the IDE
>> connectors closer to the drives? I guess they're the poor cousins to the
>> FSB and memory. ;-)
>
> the best IDE cables are the fairly new round IDE
> cables, provided that they are sturdy. www.newegg.com
> has a long list of MANY round IDE cables.

Well... I'm not impressed with any violations of specs. ...unless
they're verified to be actually with the specs. I'll have a look though,
a coupla cables would be cheaper than a case. (drat! I was looking at a
better casee ;-)
>
> best i've gotten (so far) are Antec Cobra and the 3 (2 IDE/1 floppy)
> included with a DFI Lanparty mobo (Intel)

I'm not really impressed with any "round" cables that I've seen. SATA
cables are round, but they're still a PITA. If the SuSE/Tyan/SI3114
drivers worked I'd be a happy camper. I'd take the pATA drive outa this
thing and put it back in the old beast where it belongs. Until that
happens (not counting chickens), I'm doing little more than heating the
room with the SATA drive.

--
Keith

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 21:48:01 -0400, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:

>I have one around somewhere, but the distance between the two drives still
>isn't right to plug in the CDs. YOY don't board manufacturers put the IDE
>connectors closer to the drives?

is there any reason why if the mountain doesn't come to Mohammed,
Mohammed cannot go to the mountain instead? Or is your casing so huge
that even moving the drives closer won't help? pPpPp
--
L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me
Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

On Wed, 06 Oct 2004 03:06:15 +0000, The little lost angel wrote:

> On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 21:48:01 -0400, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
>
>>I have one around somewhere, but the distance between the two drives still
>>isn't right to plug in the CDs. YOY don't board manufacturers put the IDE
>>connectors closer to the drives?
>
> is there any reason why if the mountain doesn't come to Mohammed,
> Mohammed cannot go to the mountain instead? Or is your casing so huge
> that even moving the drives closer won't help? pPpPp

I guess I could get out the Binford 6000 chasis saw (more TV humor here).
No, the casing isn't *huge* (6" shorter then my trusty Q500 casess),
rather the IDE ports are in a bad place. One assumes they think a
"server" will only have disk drives and no CDROM drives? The cables
*just* about make it to the top of the case. In no way can one put two
drives (disk-CD, or CD-CD) in there on the same (standard) IDE cable.
Thus, my DVDROM frive is disconnected now.

--
Keith