Sound Card/Headphone dilemma

[ejohnsson]

Hi, I was looking at headphones to go with the Xonar Essence STX I've been planning to buy, but I noticed that so many gaming headphones (like Astro) are usb connected. I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure that means the audio will not pass through the sound card at all, and go straight to the usb, leaving the sound card useless.

So I guess this is my question: Are there any headphones that are great for gaming AND music, that use analog? And do usb connected headphones sound distinctively worse than analog? I don't mind using pure usb headphones as long as they sound okay.

I am currently using some old Turtle Beach PX21's, which have a usb for power and analog for audio. Works well on my PS4, but a little weird on my PC.

Side question: my monitor has a 3.5mm jack on it. Where does it get its audio? From the sound card or somewhere else?

As I said, I'm not an expert. Any response would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

 

[ssddx]

correct, usb headphones bypass the soundcard.

your monitor likely pulls it from hdmi (and also bypasses your soundcard)

what is your budget for headphones/headset?

 

[ejohnsson]

My budget is around $250, but if I don't get the Xonar I'm willing to spend more. I edit music and game for fun, so I want something to handle both. How much can I get for $250?

 

[ssddx]

for that kind of budget you may want to look into some studio headphones.

you might want to google "tomshardware ssddx headphone headset" to pull up some other recent threads i've posted in. lots of good info.

also, its not done yet but i've begun to work on a headphone guide (link in signature). right now it shows you photos of the different types, has some terminology and has a nice section on microphones. thats about it so far.. i havent gotten into detailed products for it yet.

for that budget i'd say....

ath-m50s - cheap, great bass, decent clarity and fair highs, closed design (i own this one). small soundstage since its closed, not as clear as some.
dt770pro - better soundstage than the m50s but more costly. the 80ohm version has some decent bass like the m50s.
dt880pro - halfway between 770 and 990.
dt990pro - open design for wide soundstage. very bright crisp highs but limited bass response.
hd598 - super wide soundstage, used alot for gaming. poor bass response. decent for games but not for bassy music or bass lovers. clear highs.
ad700x - similar to 598, lacks bass output but has great mids and highs and wide soundstage.

you can pair them up with a modmic v4 which attaches a boom microphone to any headphones.

if you want virtual surround you can use a soundcard which has dolby headphone or cmss-3d.

or there are these headsets... but they are about $50-100 overpriced for what they are:

mmx 300 - based on the dt770 premium. lacks the good bass response of the pro but has crisp highs and better clarity of sound.
pc363d - similar to above

did you need virtual surround or is good stereo sound good enough?

 

[ejohnsson]

I'm okay with good stero sound. I checked out the ath-m50s, and it looks like a good fit for me. I'll probably be buying that with the Xonar. The headphones won't bottleneck the card, will they? I only ask because of the price.

 

[ssddx]

well, before you make any snap decisions, i would suggest just a little more back & forth to make sure what you plan on getting is right for your purposes.

you may want to list what you would expect out of the headphones in terms of audio. deep bass or crystal clear piercing highs? your thoughts on soundstage? are you a basshead or do you prefer bass light headphones?

while the ath-m50 headphones are definitely pretty good in the sound quality department the soundstage is rather small on them and i'm not sure if that really matters to you. personally it doesnt matter to me a whole lot but everyone is different. i'm not downing the headphones (i do own a pair) i just want to make sure they are the best fit for your sound profile.

soundstage is how 3d or airy sound feels coming from the headphones. small soundstage headphones feel as if the sound is very close to you while open headphones feels like there is a larger virtual space around you at which sounds come at you from different distances. most people prefer larger soundstages for games but it isnt required. its more of a preferences thing (since i've heard of lots of people gaming on the m50s and dt770pro before too)

is there a reason that you want the xonar stx specifically? for example are you planning on hooking up speakers too? i wouldnt say the m50 bottlenecks the stx but you could likely make do with a cheaper card. if you were not going to get speakers perhaps you might like a seperate dac+amp for the headphones which would give you the best sound (although i'd suggest it more for the dt770pro-80ohm or other headphones not the m50).

let me know your thoughts on the above.... so that i can help figure out if what you have picked out would be the best for you.

 

[ejohnsson]

Yea you're right, I should look into this stuff a little more. I bit immature of me I suppose. You actually know what you're talking about, after all.

Soundstage is not a big a deal to me. I do like it for games but it's not a requirement - I only game for fun, not competitively

I wouldn't call myself a basshead, but I definitely like a deep bass. It varies from song to song though - for dubstep I like to crank the bass up but for rock I like to tone it down. This morning I was looking for headphones with adjustable bass when I came across the beyerdynamic custom one pros. A little on the expensive side, but it looks like you get what you pay for.

So here are the reasons why I wanted to get the Xonar Essence STX:
- Obviously sound quality. This card seems to blow away every other card on the market.
- Seems reliable; I want a card that is going to last for a while - other cards (like many of the Creative Labs ones) seem to have issues with compatibility, durability and such
- I listen to music a lot, mostly while I'm working (I do software development); I'm willing to throw a couple hundred dollars into something that I'll be using all the time.
- I like to edit songs and make dubstep in my free time

If you think there is a cheaper alternative that suits my needs, by all means let me know.

If you couldn't tell, dubstep is my favorite genre, but I listen to almost everything (rap, rock, etc.). That's why I really like having adjustable bass, as my Turtle Beach's do.

And thank you for being patient with me, with all the tips and suggestions. You're a huge help.

 

[ssddx]

if you like dubstep you might want to try...

Dubbase.FM on Tuneinradio

also you might want to check out the "what song are you listening to" thread. a few electronica bands in there.
http/www.tomshardware.com/forum/id-2112546/song-listening/page-2.html#13373801

i listen to more than my fair share of dubstep and electronica. the m50s sound great for that.

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if you like bass which really goes down low you're looking for sub-bass. both the m50s and the 770pro-80ohm are great for this. the others might have some better highs and clarity but arent capable of the sub-bass.

the problem with the custom one pros is that some say the bass feels bloated and the highs seem forced. they also mention that its hollow sounding. the bass adjustment however is no joke. you can do better for the price.

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do you need a soundcard to mix your dubstep? (also please do link me to some of your dubstep songs.. i'd like to listen)

what are your thoughts on an external solution such as the shiit modi + magni combo? it might be a better match than the STX soundcard (read below comment on STX soundcard at end of post)

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i'll be quite honest here.... "adjustable" isnt really suited for headphones. you could likely do something similar with the EQ without paying for the fancy feature. headphones arent going to just change nature because of a slider. the hd598 for example couldnt become a basshead headphone and the m50s couldnt gain superb ultra clarity highs just with a switch. there is more to it than that.

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i'm thinking the m50s or dt770pro-80ohm will be best for you. it seems like you dont care about soundstage much but want good bass without totally muddying up the highs and mids. they should be a good fit and are fairly inexpensive. if you bought the 80ohm you might need to get an amplifier as i'm not sure

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according to this thread here http/www.head-fi.org/t/421890/the-xonar-essence-stx-q-a-tweaking-impressions-thread/3990 the xonar ST (the pci version of the STX) uses the same audio processor as the DX which is half its cost. you could then pair it up with a shiit magni or o2 amplifier which would probably be better than the STX. just a thought. or you could not use a soundcard at all and get the Modi dac...

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let me know what you think about the above.

 

[ttimberlak443]

If having a mic on the headset is important to you and you still want to have an analog connection, I would definitely recommend the Sennheiser PC360 (it was replaced my the G4ME ONE if you can't find any PC360's). Match it with a sound card with an amp, they really sound good. I'm personally using the PC360 with a Xonar DGX and these things really sound great for the price.

Sennheiser has always made great products and I have been nothing but happy with this headset. Keep in mind, the PC360 is open and the PC350 is closed. If you don't mind the sound leaking then I would definitely recommend the PC360 over the PC350.

 

[ejohnsson]

Right now I think the m50s are my best choice. My only concern with them is the bass. The headphones seem perfect for rocking out to the Rolling Stones or listening to the lyrical genius that is Eminem, but I'm not sure it can really "drop the bass" for some dubstep songs. To me at least, there are a lot of dubsteps that need that extra kick from the headphones to really sound the way it was supposed to. For example: Dirty Vibe (Skrillex) sounds okay with my iphone earbuds, but when I use my Turtle Beach's at max bass, it's the best thing I've ever heard. The song itself doesn't have much bass, so I really need to crank it up to feel it. Same with I Know the Truth (Pretty Lights). Obviously a lot of dubstep sounds great without head shaking bass, but this is just a concern.

As for sound card stuff, I'd rather keep everything inside the case and not use any external devices. I have enough clutter on my desk as it is - I don't need even more. That being said though, if it really makes a difference in sound quality and it costs significantly less, I wouldn't mind buying it. I would just prefer not to.

As for my own dubstep, I haven't actually finished any songs yet. I've been working on two songs for about a month now, and I'm not sure my equipment is good enough. This is why I want to revamp my whole audio setup. I want to hear what I'm writing to it's full potential. My Turtle Beach's really bring out the bass, but give terrible mid-high quality.

If you think the m50s will still be great with dubstep, let me know. It's just so hard for me to think about how it sounds without actually listening to it.

Try listening to Dirty Vibe on your m50s and tell me what you think. I don't need my ears exploding, I just want to be able to feel the bass.

 

[ssddx]

i've listened to electronica for years on my m50s including dubstep. i own and listen to some skrillex as well.

dirty vibe >used this link< really isnt that bass heavy of a song, i even listened to it on my $1300 sound system with a 450w subwoofer and i wasnt too impressed by any bass drops. the m50s can handle far better bass drops than that such as bass cannon >from this link< and even handles >this crazy test (must listen)<

the m50s (and dt770-80) arent "bass cannons" and arent going to scramble your brain with low frequency soundwaves but they do have a significant enough lowend for this type of music. any more bassy and headphones seriously start to distort and have issues with highs and mids. i dont think you want that which is why i didnt recommend "basshead headphones" (they muddy the sound bad but give you ear-shattering bass).

the m50s or dt770pro-80 are fine.

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your call about internal vs external but in terms of sound quality the external is going to be a bit better. cost is going to be similar though.

from headfi forums about upgrading from a xonar stx to the modi/magni combo.... http/www.head-fi.org/t/643162/upgrade-from-my-xonar-stx-schiit-magni-and-modi-maybe

Modi/Magni sounds more transparent and less aggressive opposed to the STX. Which i have both.
I'd say the Modi sounds better as a DAC, and the Magni is stronger/more neutral sounding as an amp.

however, the modi/magni is a bit overkill for m50s... often thats reserved for some better headphones. the STX might also be overkill as it uses the same processing as the half priced DX (why not go with the DX instead if you must have internal)

orperhaps save a bit of money and go with an audioengine d1 http/www.head-fi.org/t/623753/review-audioengine-d1-dac-a-feature-packed-entry-dac which can be had for $150. its a combo amp/dac which processes sound and amps it for your headphones using its internal amp. this might be more a fit if you wanted to go with the m50s.

-------------------

TLDR...

i would say an audioengine d1 paired with either the m50s or dt770pro-80ohm should be fine.

 

[ejohnsson]

Wow that's a lot of bass! Started to hurt after a couple minutes

It wasn't the "handling" of bass I was concerned about, it was the emphasis. I know it's not a heavy drop, but I wanted to make it one. I'll take your word on it for the distortions though.

All in all, the m50 definitely seems like the best option. So I think I've established that as my headset of choice. I'll pick up a half decent mic somewhere else.

Just wondering, what's the difference in sound quality between the modi/magni and the more ridiculously expensive dacs and amps? I don't plan on buying anything that expensive, but I'm curious.

And what is the sound quality difference between the audioengine d1, modi/magni, and DX? Give me the reasons to buy each of these. Here are the ones that are good for me specifically:

Audioengine: more simple than the others, good price.
DX: Great price, less clutter
Modi/magni: Best quality, gives me room to upgrade my headphones if I ever want to.

The one thing I obviously don't know about for any of these is sound quality. How much of a difference will I notice between the 3 of these?

Thanks again for all your help!

 

[ssddx]

i know... its a car subwoofer test. its not meant to be music. if i cranked the volume up i could probably shake the pictures off the walls with my sub :lol: and even with the headphones i was a bit uncomfortable listening to it (no, it didnt shake my brain to pieces). that is an excessive use of low end sub bass so cannot be compared with songs. i just provided it as an example that it would handle it.

the m50s and dt770pro-80 provide more low end than neutral headphones without getting some nasty distortion for highs. the m50s can be suitably refined though for music such as this >here< but arent going to be as perfectly crystal clear as say hd598 or dt990pro's (these headphones lack substantial low end but have more clarity and better highs) but they are clear enough with decent enough highs.

besides bass drops.... i do listen to lots of j-pop, k-pop, and foreign music in general and lots of it has female vocals which require good highs. while not piercingly high, amazingly five start clear or the like the m50s certainly retain enough to sound good for such music. perhaps not as good as the hd598 or dt990pro but those lack the bass response that i desire so its okay.

there is no one perfect headphone unfortunately.

if you want a headset... perhaps look at the modmic v4 for $50. it attaches a boom mic to any headphone and is what most people use for gaming on good headphones. if that isnt your style then click "headphones" in my signature and go to the second to last post and read the "microphone reviews" ... its incomplete (i havent finished the guide yet) but there are some there to read

i dont have any of those amps so i cant tell you firsthand but only from info i've read. i use my m50s unamped since they sound fine on my cellphone and at home i normally use my 725w sound system but on occassion i do plug them into my receiver which has an amped headphone jack and they sound great. i do notice a difference between using the portable devices and the receiver but its not a huge difference to me where it sound twice as good or anything. they are a bit clearer and a bit deeper hitting on my home system.

in order of sound quality i would likely say dx < audioengine < modi/magni though mind you thats not from personally listening to all of them. it seems that you did a fair job of listing the pros for each of them. the only thing i would add is.... that the DX likely doesnt have enough juice to power headphones in the 80ohm+ range so you would need an amp if you ever upgraded from the m50s.

not sure how much of a difference you will notice on the m50s. you might have more volume control for the seperate DAC options (audioengine or mo/ma) but the DX gives you dolby headphone for virtual surround if you game. theres a decent difference from using just your onboard sound for any of the options though.

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so what should you get?

if you want virtual surround... you need to get the DX (or ST or STX) since it has dolby headphone (external dac/amps dont have dolby headphone or virtual surround). if you get headphones in the future which need a stronger amp then you could get a headphone amp and use the soundcard output.

if you dont care about virtual surround the audioengine d1 is likely a better choice for some better quality sound and more powerful amp. it also will handle some better headphones in the future (within reason... ). there may be some other choices as well but this one is commonly reviewed and listed. supposedly its also built very well.

the modi/magni is nice and definitely a good option for someone who is serious about audio quality (worth using on headphones in the $200-400 range) and wants something which will support any headphone they want. honestly for the price its top notch stuff and gets rave reviews. are there better? why sure but more costly. there are also some other similar priced items which compete as well. they get some good feedback on build quality.

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not sure if that answered your questions... but most of it is hinging on "your ears" and obviously i dont have them so i cant really know for sure what exactly is best. also i dont really know what your future plans will be or all of your preferences so all i can do is make some broad recommendations.