Those new Bose PA speakers

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

OK, I saw a band a couple of weeks ago with those new Bose PA stick
thingies. Don't hate me... but I was surprised... they sounded way better
than I thought they would. Not muddy... a bit bright, but not too much so.
It DID sound... well... more hi fi then most bands I've seen at the same
location (an outdoor Friday night concert series). Less muddy. The sweet
spot was much wider than I've heard at that location too, which surprised
me. They didn't use monitors. The vocalist appeared to hear herself well,
had no pitch problems. The drummer was live and I think NOT miced. It's
possible the kick was miced, I didn't look. It seemed everyone could
control their own individual volume very well and mix together.

Keyboards were direct (and keys played bass too). Live guitar, drummer,
percussionist, and sax. I have to say, surprisingly, the idea seems to have
worked out, at least in this case. I can see it working in many cases,
though not larger venues... but that's not really an issue for me.

Anyway, the question.... it seems like it wouldn't be difficult at all to
roll your own similar system. It seems to me there are a few of things
going on here that make the system work:

- smaller diameter drivers in the mains so no low mid muddiness buildup (the
usual bose lack of lower mids)
- wide dispersion of audio from drivers to make monitors unnecessary
- some sort of feedback reduction in each unit
- omnidirectional nature of bass frequencies

Thoughts? Has anyone thought of doing their own similar system, using some
aspects of the Bose system and improving on them? Is there more voodoo
going on then I'm aware of?

Info is appreciated... thanks!


--
-------------------------------------------------------------
Now available: new Particle Salad CD "The Track Inside."

See http/www.particlesalad.com for more info.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Particle Salad <mark@particlesalad.com> wrote:
>OK, I saw a band a couple of weeks ago with those new Bose PA stick
>thingies. Don't hate me... but I was surprised... they sounded way better
>than I thought they would. Not muddy... a bit bright, but not too much so.
>It DID sound... well... more hi fi then most bands I've seen at the same
>location (an outdoor Friday night concert series). Less muddy. The sweet
>spot was much wider than I've heard at that location too, which surprised
>me. They didn't use monitors. The vocalist appeared to hear herself well,
>had no pitch problems. The drummer was live and I think NOT miced. It's
>possible the kick was miced, I didn't look. It seemed everyone could
>control their own individual volume very well and mix together.

Basically, this is the result of having very wide horizontal dispersion. Wide
dispersion means lots of leakage on stage and therefore no need for monitors
with small acoustic acts. The fact that it doesn't sound like it's coming
through a telephone is the side effect of eliminating the horn since you
no longer are trying to control high end dispersion.

I think the whole line array thing here is mostly a gimmick; I don't think
the vertical directivity control resulting from the line array is really
all that great. What is great is the fact that it has extensive active
notch filtering systems to compensate for the feedback problems that result
from the high leakage.

The microphone modelling stuff in there is also mostly a useless gimmick
that does more harm than good.

But the overall concept of using wide dispersion speakers without horns
and DSP feedback reduction is not a bad one for small groups where high
levels aren't really needed. The idea falls apart completely once you
are in a very live club with high audience noise levels because you really
don't have great gain before feedback, but when it can work, it can work
well.

>Anyway, the question.... it seems like it wouldn't be difficult at all to
>roll your own similar system. It seems to me there are a few of things
>going on here that make the system work:
>
>- smaller diameter drivers in the mains so no low mid muddiness buildup (the
>usual bose lack of lower mids)
>- wide dispersion of audio from drivers to make monitors unnecessary

These are easy. And you'll note that there is no horn on the top end,
so the top end rolls off very smoothly with no narrow peaks. That actually
is a help both for natural sound and reduced feedback.

The line array thing does increase vertical dispersion a little bit. I
don't have a good line on how much that really improves gain before
feedback but I bet it's pretty minimal.

>- some sort of feedback reduction in each unit
>- omnidirectional nature of bass frequencies
>
>Thoughts? Has anyone thought of doing their own similar system, using some
>aspects of the Bose system and improving on them? Is there more voodoo
>going on then I'm aware of?

Sure. I used to do a small dance band with a pair of AR-3Xes. Plenty of
spill-over so everyone could hear the singer. Worked just fine because
it wasn't very loud and it didn't have to be.

>Info is appreciated... thanks!

I think Bose has just realized that there is a small niche market of
acoustic performers who aren't really served by the typical PA gear they
find in their local MI store. I don't think they have anything too
innovative going on here, and I think a pair of AR-3Xes, a powered mixer
and a notch filter might do the same thing. But they have it all in one
package.

If you compare the Bose system with a good pair of non-horn-loaded box
speakers, you'll find they sound very distant in comparison, with a very
recessed upper midrange. I think that's a disadvantage in the application
too.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

 

[george]

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <siTSc.3941$Cu5.1018@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>,
"Particle Salad" <mark@particlesalad.com> wrote:

> OK, I saw a band a couple of weeks ago with those new Bose PA stick
> thingies. Don't hate me... but I was surprised... they sounded way better
> than I thought they would. Not muddy... a bit bright, but not too much so.
> It DID sound... well... more hi fi then most bands I've seen at the same
> location (an outdoor Friday night concert series). Less muddy. The sweet
> spot was much wider than I've heard at that location too, which surprised
> me. They didn't use monitors. The vocalist appeared to hear herself well,
> had no pitch problems. The drummer was live and I think NOT miced. It's
> possible the kick was miced, I didn't look. It seemed everyone could
> control their own individual volume very well and mix together.
>
> Keyboards were direct (and keys played bass too). Live guitar, drummer,
> percussionist, and sax. I have to say, surprisingly, the idea seems to have
> worked out, at least in this case. I can see it working in many cases,
> though not larger venues... but that's not really an issue for me.
>
> Anyway, the question.... it seems like it wouldn't be difficult at all to
> roll your own similar system. It seems to me there are a few of things
> going on here that make the system work:
>
> - smaller diameter drivers in the mains so no low mid muddiness buildup (the
> usual bose lack of lower mids)
> - wide dispersion of audio from drivers to make monitors unnecessary
> - some sort of feedback reduction in each unit
> - omnidirectional nature of bass frequencies
>
> Thoughts? Has anyone thought of doing their own similar system, using some
> aspects of the Bose system and improving on them? Is there more voodoo
> going on then I'm aware of?
>
> Info is appreciated... thanks!

I had to salvage a show that the musos could not get the things working
right
I would say what I feel but I really don't have the energy or time for
another go round about these POS speakers
ok for a solo act absoulte train wreck for a band they really don't do
anything or sound any better than you average mackie 808 and peavey
speakers on a stick IMO
George
but they sure do cost alot more
George

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

CORRECTION:

> ASIDE...for those who haven;t come across these things, it's basically a
> 250w amp driving a 6' tall line array built into a 4" metal casing that
> breaks into two 1/2-pole sections for transport andlocks into a heavy 3'
> disc-shaped floor-base that contains all the electronics. In use they look
> EXACTLY like an iron-base-&-pipe lighting pole. Alone it does voice/ag stuff
> well with a designed rolloff below 90hz or so. Plug in the add-on subwoofer
> (or ANY subwoofer... I used a RAMSA 240), and -another- amp already in the
> base kicks in to drive it and changes the lo-end rolloff of the column to
> match. With the woof the system is really very impressive.
....
> 24 3" drivers in a tall column driven by 250 watts

CORRECTION:
I may be in error here...
I think it might have a 250w amp for
--each 1/2 of the pole--
I seem to remember there are 3 amps in the base:
2 for the pole and one for the woof

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

JoVee wrote:
>
>> it's basically a 250w amp driving a 6' tall line array
>> ...
>> 24 3" drivers in a tall column driven by 250 watts
>
>
> CORRECTION:
> I may be in error here...
> I think it might have a 250w amp for
> --each 1/2 of the pole--
> I seem to remember there are 3 amps in the base:
> 2 for the pole and one for the woof


Times how many band members? That could add up to a pretty hefty AC draw...

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 23:45:30 GMT, "Particle Salad"
<mark@particlesalad.com> wrote:

>OK, I saw a band a couple of weeks ago with those new Bose PA stick
>thingies. Don't hate me... but I was surprised... they sounded way better
>than I thought they would. Not muddy... a bit bright, but not too much so.
>It DID sound... well... more hi fi then most bands I've seen at the same
>location (an outdoor Friday night concert series). Less muddy. The sweet
>spot was much wider than I've heard at that location too, which surprised
>me. They didn't use monitors. The vocalist appeared to hear herself well,
>had no pitch problems. The drummer was live and I think NOT miced. It's
>possible the kick was miced, I didn't look. It seemed everyone could
>control their own individual volume very well and mix together.

Could it have had something to do with everyone hearing the same mix,
and having to play in a musical balance?

Occasionally, I persuade a band to set up in a way so they can all
hear each other. If amps are involved, they turn them in on
themselves. If there's a singer, stick her through a couple of
speakers pointing at he band.

No-one is allowed to turn up. But everyone else is encouraged to turn
down. (OK, not rigidly, but that's what we aim for).

If it's a big room, sometimes I set up a FOH system as well.
Sometimes I don't have to.

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Particle Salad" <mark@particlesalad.com> wrote in message
news:siTSc.3941$Cu5.1018@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com...
> OK, I saw a band a couple of weeks ago with those new Bose PA stick
> thingies. Don't hate me... but I was surprised... they sounded way better
> than I thought they would.

I'm not surprised.
Their negative reputation notwithstanding, I've always felt Bose makes the
best speakers on the market, at any price point.
The cabinetry may have a few rough edges, but they have more engineering
staff than the rest of the world's speaker companies combined.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> What is great is the fact that it has extensive active
> notch filtering systems to compensate for the feedback
> problems that result from the high leakage.

Oh really?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

No Spam <none@nowhere.no> wrote:
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
>> What is great is the fact that it has extensive active
>> notch filtering systems to compensate for the feedback
> > problems that result from the high leakage.
>
>Oh really?

According to the marketing glossies, yeah. They do some handwaving about
magical anti-feedback algorithms. Dunno how they compare to a skilled
operator with a Little Dipper, but the point of the system is that it's
not supposed to need a skilled operator.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
news:cfh8kb$7pi$1@panix2.panix.com...

> The line array thing does increase vertical dispersion a little bit. I
> don't have a good line on how much that really improves gain before
> feedback but I bet it's pretty minimal.

Shouldn't the line array *decrease* vertical dispersion, as it increases
horizontal dispersion?

(As you say, the difference in this application might be minimal.)

For a solo performer or duo, this might be a genuinely nice system. As
someone noted, for a larger band it might draw a goodly chunk of power from
the wall...depending of course on how highly-biased those power amps are.

Peace,
Paul

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Paul Stamler wrote:

> For a solo performer or duo, this might be a genuinely nice system. As
> someone noted, for a larger band it might draw a goodly chunk of power from
> the wall...depending of course on how highly-biased those power amps are.

But so do stacks of BGW 750's. A big chunk.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Pete Dimsman wrote:
>
> Paul Stamler wrote:
>
>> For a solo performer or duo, this might be a genuinely nice system.
>> As someone noted, for a larger band it might draw a goodly chunk of
>> power from the wall...depending of course on how highly-biased
> > those power amps are.
>
>
> But so do stacks of BGW 750's. A big chunk.

The real question regards the efficiency (of those 2¼" cones combined with their respective amplifiers) at translating AC Watts into SPL in the back third of the audience area.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Paul Stamler <pstamlerhell@pobox.com> wrote:
>"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
>news:cfh8kb$7pi$1@panix2.panix.com...
>
>> The line array thing does increase vertical dispersion a little bit. I
>> don't have a good line on how much that really improves gain before
>> feedback but I bet it's pretty minimal.
>
>Shouldn't the line array *decrease* vertical dispersion, as it increases
>horizontal dispersion?

Sorry. I means increasing vertical directionality. Oops.

>(As you say, the difference in this application might be minimal.)
>
>For a solo performer or duo, this might be a genuinely nice system. As
>someone noted, for a larger band it might draw a goodly chunk of power from
>the wall...depending of course on how highly-biased those power amps are.

For a larger band the whole idea doesn't work. But for a solo act it is
indeed nice.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <tPednQfYzZXPxoHcRVn-qw@giganews.com>, Sugarite <not for you> wrote:
>
>I'm not surprised.
>Their negative reputation notwithstanding, I've always felt Bose makes the
>best speakers on the market, at any price point.

You aren't really Sugarite, are you?

>The cabinetry may have a few rough edges, but they have more engineering
>staff than the rest of the world's speaker companies combined.

That's true, and a huge amount of really impressive engineering expertise
goes into their speakers. Unfortunately it goes into making them profitable
rather than making them sound good. This is a good thing if you are a
stockholder but a bad thing if you are a customer.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Damned things are expensive, though. At least, that's my thought.

--
-----------

Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio


"Particle Salad" <mark@particlesalad.com> wrote in message
news:siTSc.3941$Cu5.1018@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com...
> OK, I saw a band a couple of weeks ago with those new Bose PA stick
> thingies. Don't hate me... but I was surprised... they sounded way better
> than I thought they would. Not muddy... a bit bright, but not too much
so.
> It DID sound... well... more hi fi then most bands I've seen at the same
> location (an outdoor Friday night concert series). Less muddy. The sweet
> spot was much wider than I've heard at that location too, which surprised
> me. They didn't use monitors. The vocalist appeared to hear herself
well,
> had no pitch problems. The drummer was live and I think NOT miced. It's
> possible the kick was miced, I didn't look. It seemed everyone could
> control their own individual volume very well and mix together.
>
> Keyboards were direct (and keys played bass too). Live guitar, drummer,
> percussionist, and sax. I have to say, surprisingly, the idea seems to
have
> worked out, at least in this case. I can see it working in many cases,
> though not larger venues... but that's not really an issue for me.
>
> Anyway, the question.... it seems like it wouldn't be difficult at all to
> roll your own similar system. It seems to me there are a few of things
> going on here that make the system work:
>
> - smaller diameter drivers in the mains so no low mid muddiness buildup
(the
> usual bose lack of lower mids)
> - wide dispersion of audio from drivers to make monitors unnecessary
> - some sort of feedback reduction in each unit
> - omnidirectional nature of bass frequencies
>
> Thoughts? Has anyone thought of doing their own similar system, using
some
> aspects of the Bose system and improving on them? Is there more voodoo
> going on then I'm aware of?
>
> Info is appreciated... thanks!
>
>
> --
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Now available: new Particle Salad CD "The Track Inside."
>
> See http/www.particlesalad.com for more info.
>
>
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Bose and "best speakers" shouldn't be in the same sentence. Really.

--
-----------

Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio


"Sugarite" <not for you> wrote in message
news:tPednQfYzZXPxoHcRVn-qw@giganews.com...
>
> "Particle Salad" <mark@particlesalad.com> wrote in message
> news:siTSc.3941$Cu5.1018@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com...
> > OK, I saw a band a couple of weeks ago with those new Bose PA stick
> > thingies. Don't hate me... but I was surprised... they sounded way
better
> > than I thought they would.
>
> I'm not surprised.
> Their negative reputation notwithstanding, I've always felt Bose makes the
> best speakers on the market, at any price point.
> The cabinetry may have a few rough edges, but they have more engineering
> staff than the rest of the world's speaker companies combined.
>
>

 

[george]

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <411cd709$0$5897$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>,
"Roger W. Norman" <Roger@SirMusicStudio.com> wrote:

> Bose and "best speakers" shouldn't be in the same sentence. Really.
>
>
How about
Bose use the very best speakers $1.80 canadian can buy, then charges you
65.00 usa each for them.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"George" <g.p.gleason@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:g.p.gleason-359432.11085213082004@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
> In article <411cd709$0$5897$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>,
> "Roger W. Norman" <Roger@SirMusicStudio.com> wrote:
>
> > Bose and "best speakers" shouldn't be in the same sentence. Really.
> >
> >
> How about
> Bose use the very best speakers $1.80 canadian can buy, then charges you
> 65.00 usa each for them.

That's typical, but not limited to Bose.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

You're like, evoking evil spirits, man... I'm gonna have to light
a candle and burn some incense now to clear the bad mojo on this newsgroup!



I gotta question for ya:

How did they get enough gain before feedback occurred for sufficient vocal
levels, to balance out with a drumset for example?

Where I work we have literally hundreds of sound reinforced rooms and
auditoriums, and there's a guy who tried to apply what he learned from
designing his own home theater sound system to a few larger and much
livelier acoustic spaces and his sound systems -totally flopped- e.g. not
enough gain before feedback, very poor intelligibility, relatively narrow
spectral response and so on. He was using Bose. To the typical user or
audience, all they know is that it's hard to understand what the heck the
guy with the mic is saying. To trained ear it sounds like... well, Bose.

Many Bose systems are designed to be omnidirectional, which makes it
difficult to get much gain before feedback. Close talking a typical cardoid
mic or using headset boom mics can help when using speakers like that, along
with an absorptive acoustic environment, but under similar circumstances,
the more directional speaker systems will work better, serving to direct
acoustic energy where one wants it, the audience' ears, and not mostly
reflecting all over the room and -then- to the audience' ears

Also, Bose PA speakers use very inefficient drivers, requiring drastic
signal processing to boost low and high end to achieve relatively flat
response. In spite of the processing, these systems are typically deficient
at extreme ends of the spectrum, i.e. highs and lows. For reproducing
pre-recorded music, a subwoofer can remedy this problem, though if all
you're doing is vocal reinforcement in a very small venue, then the Bose may
actually sound fine, since high end and low end roll off are often dialed in
to the mixer in such applications. But then there's that pesky gain before
feedback issue...

I think you'll find that for a typical small venue system, that a couple of
2-way speakers on stands-sticks, say with horn tweeters & 15 inch woofers
will outperform a Bose system and at a much lower cost.

Skearler


> OK, I saw a band a couple of weeks ago with those new Bose PA stick
> thingies. Don't hate me... but I was surprised... they sounded way better
> than I thought they would. Not muddy... a bit bright, but not too much
so.
> It DID sound... well... more hi fi then most bands I've seen at the same
> location (an outdoor Friday night concert series). Less muddy. The sweet
> spot was much wider than I've heard at that location too, which surprised
> me. They didn't use monitors. The vocalist appeared to hear herself
well,
> had no pitch problems. The drummer was live and I think NOT miced. It's
> possible the kick was miced, I didn't look. It seemed everyone could
> control their own individual volume very well and mix together.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Cerion wrote:
....
>
> Also, Bose PA speakers use very inefficient drivers, requiring drastic
> signal processing to boost low and high end to achieve relatively flat
> response. In spite of the processing, these systems are typically deficient
> at extreme ends of the spectrum, i.e. highs and lows. For reproducing
> pre-recorded music, a subwoofer can remedy this problem, though if all
> you're doing is vocal reinforcement in a very small venue, then the Bose may
> actually sound fine, since high end and low end roll off are often dialed in
> to the mixer in such applications. But then there's that pesky gain before
> feedback issue...

What if someone were to take these Bose speakers and reload them with
better drivers?

I know a guy who is really sold on these because the demo he saw
impressed him both with the overall performance of the system and
especially with the physical size and weight, since he has back
problems. He travels with his wife and performs Southern Gospel in
various venues, mainly small to medium size churches (100-400 seat).
He prerecorded his own rhythm tracks and plays various lead instruments
along with them live.


> I think you'll find that for a typical small venue system, that a couple of
> 2-way speakers on stands-sticks, say with horn tweeters & 15 inch woofers
> will outperform a Bose system and at a much lower cost.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of Bose SR products. How do you think
these speakers compare with, say, those little Community CPL series
speakers (adding a sub, if necessary).