HDTV TiVo - OTA reception

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Hi Folks,

We hooked up our HD TiVo to an outdoor antenna (hooked up by Directv), the
TiVo box says that there is 0 digital signal. The installer said that
reception would be limited, but 0 seems too low to me!

We live in Saratoga CA, we were expecting to at least be able to pick up the
San Jose stations. I am wondering if hooking up an indoor antenna with an
amplifier would produce different results.

Also, on the guide there are a number of network HD feeds (CBSW for example)
these do not seem to be active, is it possible to get these channels?

At the moment I am thinking that I should return the HD box and get a
regular TiVo and wait until the new birds are flying next year and putting
out HD locals.

Thanks

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

>Hi Folks,
>
>We hooked up our HD TiVo to an outdoor antenna (hooked up by Directv), the
>TiVo box says that there is 0 digital signal. The installer said that
>reception would be limited, but 0 seems too low to me!

Doesn't go much lower than that :-(

First thing I'd suspect, with a signal quality that poor, is a bad
antenna or bad coax downlead. Try hooking an ordinary UHF analog
television to the coax, and see if you get any sort of tolerable
signal at all on the UHF analog channels. If all you get is snow, it
may indicate that you've got a frotzed antenna or coax.

>We live in Saratoga CA, we were expecting to at least be able to pick up the
>San Jose stations. I am wondering if hooking up an indoor antenna with an
>amplifier would produce different results.

Doubtful. Probably worse (although that's not really applicable in
your case).

I suspect that your location in Saratoga may put you in the "shadow"
of one of the Santa Cruz Mountains, with respect to the San Jose
transmitters.

You may need a better roof antenna - either one with higher gain, or
one which is mounted up on a higher mast and/or is aimed better. I've
had at least two associates tell me that the OTA antenna which was
installed with their HD TivVo systems wasn't terribly good, and that
they needed to install a better one before getting an
acceptable-quality signal.

There's no real substitute for a good directional antenna, mounted up
as high as is feasible. The HD channels are all in the UHF spectrum,
and these signals travel primarily via line-of-sight paths.

The preferred HDTV OTA antenna for difficult-signal areas seems to be
a bow-tie array - four or more bow-tie-shaped antennas, fed in
parallel, mounted a few inches in front of a wire-mesh reflector. The
array is then pointed in the direction of the most-desired set of
stations.

To get all of the channels, you may need two different antenna arrays
(one aimed towards Sutro Towers in SF, and the other aimed towards San
Jose) and some sort of combiner network.

>Also, on the guide there are a number of network HD feeds (CBSW for example)
>these do not seem to be active, is it possible to get these channels?
>
>At the moment I am thinking that I should return the HD box and get a
>regular TiVo and wait until the new birds are flying next year and putting
>out HD locals.

I've been told that the video quality of the DirecTV HD feeds is not
as good as the OTA HD stations tend to be. This may or may not change
in the future when there's more bird-bandwidth.

--
Dave Platt <dplatt@radagast.org> AE6EO
Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http/www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

 

[Aardvark]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Dave Platt wrote:

>>Hi Folks,
>>
>>We hooked up our HD TiVo to an outdoor antenna (hooked up by Directv), the
>>TiVo box says that there is 0 digital signal. The installer said that
>>reception would be limited, but 0 seems too low to me!
>
>

Also look here
http/antennaweb.org/aw/Address.aspx
put in your address and see what you can / can't get.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

You can only get the East and West coast network feeds (CBSE, CBSW, etc.) if
you live outside of a local affiliate broadcast area, or if the local
affiliate give you a waiver. You can call DirectTV and request those
channels, and they will start the waiver request process.

Switching from a HD to regular definition box will not help the signal
strength on your OTA antenna at all.

Is the antenna pointed in the direction of the San Jose broadcast towers?
How far away do you live? This is a good site to reference
http/antennaweb.org/aw/welcome.aspx


"Fred Bloggs" <SPAM@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:gSbfd.44$6e.106@news.oracle.com...
> Hi Folks,
>
> We hooked up our HD TiVo to an outdoor antenna (hooked up by Directv), the
> TiVo box says that there is 0 digital signal. The installer said that
> reception would be limited, but 0 seems too low to me!
>
> We live in Saratoga CA, we were expecting to at least be able to pick up
> the
> San Jose stations. I am wondering if hooking up an indoor antenna with an
> amplifier would produce different results.
>
> Also, on the guide there are a number of network HD feeds (CBSW for
> example)
> these do not seem to be active, is it possible to get these channels?
>
> At the moment I am thinking that I should return the HD box and get a
> regular TiVo and wait until the new birds are flying next year and putting
> out HD locals.
>
> Thanks
>
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Fred Bloggs <SPAM@hotmail.com> wrote:
>We live in Saratoga CA, we were expecting to at least be able to pick up the
>San Jose stations. I am wondering if hooking up an indoor antenna with an
>amplifier would produce different results.

That's a really difficult location. I used to live in Campbell.

All of the networks you want to get are on Mt. Sutro in San Francisco,
except for the NBC station, which is on Loma Prieta right now -- pretty
much opposite directions from Saratoga. They're taking over the KCSM
transmitter site in San Mateo though, then all of the signals will be
more or less north.

So being in Saratoga, it's going to depend how high you are on a hillside,
and what might be blocking your view to the north.

"There are three important factors when you're talking about DTV reception:
Number one is location. Number two is ..." You know the rest.

Mojo
--
Morris Jones <*>
Monrovia, CA
mojo@whiteoaks.com
http/www.whiteoaks.com

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

In alt.video.ptv.tivo Fred Bloggs <SPAM@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Folks,

> We hooked up our HD TiVo to an outdoor antenna (hooked up by Directv), the
> TiVo box says that there is 0 digital signal. The installer said that
> reception would be limited, but 0 seems too low to me!

Was there a picture when he was there? Was "limited" a euphimism for "you
bought it, so I can't tell you it's not going to work"?

> We live in Saratoga CA, we were expecting to at least be able to pick up the
> San Jose stations. I am wondering if hooking up an indoor antenna with an
> amplifier would produce different results.

KNTV-11 is just about straight down highway 9 toward 17, from the corner of
Saratoga-Sunnyvale and Hwy9. This probably points right at Blossom Hill
for you. KTEH-50 is above Fremont. One or the the other might be visible
to you, and that's all there is for OTA HDTV.
Channels 49,50,51,52 are all on the Mission/Monument Peak.


---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8-122.5

 

[Alan]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

In article <gSbfd.44$6e.106@news.oracle.com> "Fred Bloggs" <SPAM@hotmail.com> writes:
>Hi Folks,
>
>We hooked up our HD TiVo to an outdoor antenna (hooked up by Directv), the
>TiVo box says that there is 0 digital signal. The installer said that
>reception would be limited, but 0 seems too low to me!
>
>We live in Saratoga CA, we were expecting to at least be able to pick up the
>San Jose stations. I am wondering if hooking up an indoor antenna with an
>amplifier would produce different results.

What sort of antenna? The San Francisco stations are running digital on
UHF. Channel 11 has their digital on channel 12, but you may be somewhat
blocked from the top of Loma Prieta. Where does your antenna point?

What analog signals does it get from the antenna?

What sort of feedline? Good low-loss RG6? How long?

An indoor antenna with an amplifier will almost certainly be worse
than any reasonable properly installed outdoor antenna.


>Also, on the guide there are a number of network HD feeds (CBSW for example)
>these do not seem to be active, is it possible to get these channels?

Not without permission of the local channels.


>At the moment I am thinking that I should return the HD box and get a
>regular TiVo and wait until the new birds are flying next year and putting
>out HD locals.

Unless, by then, it takes a different tivo box to receive the signals
from the Ka band satellites.


Alan

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Dave Platt (dplatt@radagast.org) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
> I've been told that the video quality of the DirecTV HD feeds is not
> as good as the OTA HD stations tend to be.

Fox-HD from DirecTV is as good as Fox-HD gets, since Fox limits their feed
to 15Mbps, and DirecTV just passes that along.

CBS-HD and NBC-HD are more problematic. One of the west feeds (CBS, I think),
isn't nearly as good as it should be simply because the source station isn't
doing a very good job. Otherwise, they aren't bad, but they are bitrate-
limited compared to max OTA. Depending on whether your local station has
sub-channels (an SD channel and a weather radar can knock the max rate for
the HD channel down to 13Mbps or so), the DirecTV feeds may or may not be
better than OTA.

--
Jeff Rife |
SPAM bait: | http/www.nabs.net/Cartoons/UserFriendly/GeekCommunication.gif
AskDOJ@usdoj.gov |
spam@ftc.gov |

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

That is incorrect. If your local station is an owned and operated station,
such as CBS 11 KTVT in Dallas is owned and operated by the CBS Television
Network, he can legally subscribe to those HD stations. For the NBC
affiliates the same holds true. First, find out if your local stations are
owned and operated. If I recall correctly, and you receive the San
Francisco stations, KRON used to be a network affiliate before the network
bought up another station and snatched the rights from KRON.

The other points you made are valid when you are in an underserved area
where no locals are available at all. Those areas are becoming less and
less prevalent.

TM


"Homeofmike" <news@homeofmike.com> wrote in message
news:R9cfd.5367$HA.3731@attbi_s01...
> You can only get the East and West coast network feeds (CBSE, CBSW, etc.)
> if you live outside of a local affiliate broadcast area, or if the local
> affiliate give you a waiver. You can call DirectTV and request those
> channels, and they will start the waiver request process.
>
> Switching from a HD to regular definition box will not help the signal
> strength on your OTA antenna at all.
>
> Is the antenna pointed in the direction of the San Jose broadcast towers?
> How far away do you live? This is a good site to reference
> http/antennaweb.org/aw/welcome.aspx
>
>
> "Fred Bloggs" <SPAM@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:gSbfd.44$6e.106@news.oracle.com...
>> Hi Folks,
>>
>> We hooked up our HD TiVo to an outdoor antenna (hooked up by Directv),
>> the
>> TiVo box says that there is 0 digital signal. The installer said that
>> reception would be limited, but 0 seems too low to me!
>>
>> We live in Saratoga CA, we were expecting to at least be able to pick up
>> the
>> San Jose stations. I am wondering if hooking up an indoor antenna with an
>> amplifier would produce different results.
>>
>> Also, on the guide there are a number of network HD feeds (CBSW for
>> example)
>> these do not seem to be active, is it possible to get these channels?
>>
>> At the moment I am thinking that I should return the HD box and get a
>> regular TiVo and wait until the new birds are flying next year and
>> putting
>> out HD locals.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Fred Bloggs" <SPAM@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:gSbfd.44$6e.106@news.oracle.com...
> Hi Folks,
>
> We hooked up our HD TiVo to an outdoor antenna (hooked up by Directv), the
> TiVo box says that there is 0 digital signal. The installer said that
> reception would be limited, but 0 seems too low to me!

Digital Television signals have what is called a "table-top" effect. When
the data stream error rate at the receiver hits a certain point because of
bad reception, the entire signal abruptly dissapears like falling off the
edge of the table.

Currently, the most common cause of this is the fact that Television
stations (like the one I work at) cannot afford to throw millions of dollars
at new transmitting equipment under the uncertain economic conditions that
the television industry is operating in. In the case of the TV station I
work for, we have the opportunity to broadcast on a VHF frequency (4) when
the switchover is complete. Therefore, it is economically foolish to spend
several million dollars on a powerful UHF transmitter only to put it out of
service after 3-5 years of use. So, we have a 200 watt signal that covers a
smaller area until it is possible to buy and install a digital VHF
transmitter.

I suspect that the television stations in your area are in the same position
as us. That and any signal-blocking terrain features that may exist between
you and the transmitting tower.


> We live in Saratoga CA, we were expecting to at least be able to pick up
the
> San Jose stations. I am wondering if hooking up an indoor antenna with an
> amplifier would produce different results.

Nope. Not if the signal is weak and noisy in the first place.

>
> Also, on the guide there are a number of network HD feeds (CBSW for
example)
> these do not seem to be active, is it possible to get these channels?

Call DirecTV and find out. I believe you could get waivers -- especially if
the feeds are from a San Francisco HD TV station. LA, maybe not.
>
> At the moment I am thinking that I should return the HD box and get a
> regular TiVo and wait until the new birds are flying next year and putting
> out HD locals.

I imagine that the local stations will make themselves available by
increasing their power before you will find them on the Satellite in HD
format.

>
> Thanks
>

You're welcome

Ack

 

[Poldy]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

In article <cljlu4$j0e$1@devilrock.whiteoaks.com>,
mojo@devilrock.whiteoaks.com (Morris Jones) wrote:

> Fred Bloggs <SPAM@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >We live in Saratoga CA, we were expecting to at least be able to pick up the
> >San Jose stations. I am wondering if hooking up an indoor antenna with an
> >amplifier would produce different results.
>
> That's a really difficult location. I used to live in Campbell.
>
> All of the networks you want to get are on Mt. Sutro in San Francisco,
> except for the NBC station, which is on Loma Prieta right now -- pretty
> much opposite directions from Saratoga. They're taking over the KCSM
> transmitter site in San Mateo though, then all of the signals will be
> more or less north.
>
> So being in Saratoga, it's going to depend how high you are on a hillside,
> and what might be blocking your view to the north.
>
> "There are three important factors when you're talking about DTV reception:
> Number one is location. Number two is ..." You know the rest.
>

There is a Yahoo group of Bay Area HDTV owners. Good idea to post
reception probs over there. Also AVSFORUM.com.

I live in Cupertino near City Center, which blocks my path to Sutro.
But I can get 48-2, which is showing KNTV (NBC) with a Silver Sensor.

I also get the HDTV signals of CBSW and NBCW from Direct TV. Didn't
have to ask for waiver or anything.

 

[Poldy]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

People on AVSFORUM are saying HD Tivo's OTA performance is inferior to
some other OTA tuners.

Any word on whether they will design a new DVR once the Spaceways and
Directways are online?

If you can get all the local HDTV channels from satellite, why not take
out those OTA tuners and make a cheaper DVR?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"poldy" <poldy@kfu.com> wrote in message
newsoldy-2F5B31.09453528102004@netnews.comcast.net...
> People on AVSFORUM are saying HD Tivo's OTA performance is inferior to
> some other OTA tuners.
>
> Any word on whether they will design a new DVR once the Spaceways and
> Directways are online?
>
> If you can get all the local HDTV channels from satellite, why not take
> out those OTA tuners and make a cheaper DVR?


My OTA performance in Seattle with the HD Tivo is flawless (much better than
with other OTA tuners I've owned) and I kinda prefer having the ability to
tune the channels directly instead of thru direct tv. Save for the price of
the additional tuners, it's nice to know that even if the satellite dies I
have a way to watch my local television. If someone in your neighborhood
wants to send you a letter, what's the point of routing that letter through
a post office half way accross the country? I'll take it line of sight,
freedom and versatility thank you.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Charles Tomaras (tomaras@tomaras.com) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
> Save for the price of
> the additional tuners, it's nice to know that even if the satellite dies I
> have a way to watch my local television.

Maybe, maybe not.

I know that if you don't connect the HD DirecTiVo to satellite, all the TiVo
recording and guide are gone. I don't know if this blows away any virtual
channel mapping data in the box. That's the one thing I really dislike about
the newer STBs...I want "raw" channel mappings only, at least as an option.

--
Jeff Rife | "_Grease_ is one of my favorite movies. A
SPAM bait: | sociopathic greaser in a leather jacket turns an
AskDOJ@usdoj.gov | innocent high school girl into a slut.
spam@ftc.gov |
| Kind of like _My Fair Lady_ in reverse."
|
| -- Scot Gardner, in alt.video.dvd

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

In article <gtCdnd8uvp0MthzcRVn-ow@comcast.com>,
Charles Tomaras <tomaras@tomaras.com> wrote:
>Save for the price of the additional tuners, it's nice to know that even if
>the satellite dies I have a way to watch my local television.

I know you're being hypothetical...

but do you mean if DirecTV went out of business or something?

As it is now, from what I've read in the manuals, you need a DirecTV
subscription to even use it for local signals.

So I guess your hypothetical situation would require a new software release
from Tivo. (Similar to the statement from several Tivo employees that
if they were to go out of business, they'd sent out a software release that
at least still allowed them to be used as standalone manual recorders.)

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Matt Ackeret wrote:

> In article <gtCdnd8uvp0MthzcRVn-ow@comcast.com>,
> Charles Tomaras <tomaras@tomaras.com> wrote:
>
>>Save for the price of the additional tuners, it's nice to know that even if
>>the satellite dies I have a way to watch my local television.
>
>
> I know you're being hypothetical...
>
> but do you mean if DirecTV went out of business or something?

Satellites aren't forever. They have been known to die suddenly of
various causes or just degrade as they age.

> As it is now, from what I've read in the manuals, you need a DirecTV
> subscription to even use it for local signals.

Unless something has changed, all you need is a valid access card, not a
current subscription to DirecTV. DiSH had/has that requirement.

Matthew

--
Thermodynamics and/or Golf for dummies: There is a game
You can't win
You can't break even
You can't get out of the game

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Matt Ackeret" <mattack@vax.hanford.org> wrote in message
news:clrs8v$oqa$1@news.apple.com...
> In article <gtCdnd8uvp0MthzcRVn-ow@comcast.com>,
> Charles Tomaras <tomaras@tomaras.com> wrote:
>>Save for the price of the additional tuners, it's nice to know that even
>>if
>>the satellite dies I have a way to watch my local television.
>
> I know you're being hypothetical...
>
> but do you mean if DirecTV went out of business or something?
>
> As it is now, from what I've read in the manuals, you need a DirecTV
> subscription to even use it for local signals.
>
> So I guess your hypothetical situation would require a new software
> release
> from Tivo. (Similar to the statement from several Tivo employees that
> if they were to go out of business, they'd sent out a software release
> that
> at least still allowed them to be used as standalone manual recorders.)

I guess you folks could be correct on this one. I know my former Direct TV /
ATSC HD tuners allowed ATSC viewing without the satellite or even the Direct
TV card but I've never checked it out on my HD Tivo.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Matthew L. Martin (nothere@notnow.never) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
> > As it is now, from what I've read in the manuals, you need a DirecTV
> > subscription to even use it for local signals.
>
> Unless something has changed, all you need is a valid access card, not a
> current subscription to DirecTV. DiSH had/has that requirement.

The HD DirecTiVo boxes *are* different. First, without the satellite, it
won't do any recording at all. It might not even allow you to pause live TV.
You can watch already recorded programs, though.

AFAIK, you still only need a valid access card to watch OTA HD, but because
the DirecTiVo gets its guide data and virtual channel info from the satellite
guide, I really don't know if it will work. I haven't seen any reports one
way or the other.

--
Jeff Rife |
SPAM bait: | http/www.nabs.net/Cartoons/Dilbert/Win95CatOnMonitor.gif
AskDOJ@usdoj.gov |
spam@ftc.gov |

 

[Poldy]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

In article <FuydnVPxzbH2ChzcRVn-tg@comcast.com>,
"Charles Tomaras" <tomaras@tomaras.com> wrote:

> I guess you folks could be correct on this one. I know my former Direct TV /
> ATSC HD tuners allowed ATSC viewing without the satellite or even the Direct
> TV card but I've never checked it out on my HD Tivo.

Your HD Tivo may not be compatible with the Spaceway and Directway.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"poldy" <poldy@kfu.com> wrote in message
newsoldy-30C2E4.16003730102004@netnews.comcast.net...
> In article <FuydnVPxzbH2ChzcRVn-tg@comcast.com>,
> "Charles Tomaras" <tomaras@tomaras.com> wrote:
>
>> I guess you folks could be correct on this one. I know my former Direct
>> TV /
>> ATSC HD tuners allowed ATSC viewing without the satellite or even the
>> Direct
>> TV card but I've never checked it out on my HD Tivo.
>
> Your HD Tivo may not be compatible with the Spaceway and Directway.

Well...I don't use either of those systems so that isn't an issue for me.