Recommend a 4K 120Hz+ TV Please

iPen · Nov 13, 2015

I'm looking to update my HDTV to one with a higher refresh rate to 120Hz or higher. I would like 4K. It seems that Samsung is at the top when it comes to the highest quality, and that LG is a close second (?). The monitor size that would fit in the room with the sound system would need to be between 42" and 48" (maybe 50" if the specs work better with that size, and/or the cost is somehow lower). I do prefer 2015 models.

Budget-wise, well, I'd like to spend as little as possible lol, but if you can convince me that there's a TV that I shouldn't refuse, I can stretch. I'll probably wait until Black Friday and/or Cyber Monday to buy this TV, so that gives me a bit of time.

I won't even mind if the TV is lightly used - as long as it is effectively performing the same as a brand new TV with very minor if any cosmetic issues. The same preference holds with refurbished condition TVs, though I'm not sure if I should or should not trust refurbished TVs (should I?).

I did look at many of the Samsung TVs but many of them seem to have only 60Hz with a digitized "120Hz" motion rate (I feel like this is a bit of marketing gimmick). But, I may have overlooked some good ones they had.

Can someone please recommend me a specific model that hits high on all cylinders?

Thanks in advance!

Retic3nt · Nov 13, 2015

As far as I know there aren't any 4k 120hz+ monitors mainly because there isnt a video cable capable of transferring that signal yet. pretty sure the limit is 4k a 60hz still with the option to interpolate for the "look" of 120hz. sorry man still a bit longer before that awesomeness happens.

iPen · Nov 13, 2015

Retic3nt :

How far along do you think we are from achieving that?

Just wondering if I should hold off on purchasing if it's in the near future (2016?).

Retic3nt · Nov 13, 2015

Im really not an expert, but at least until pascal and arctic islands drop. GPU power kind of exists the problem is that Display Port and HDMI cant handle the data, so whenever you see HDMI 2.0 on a graphics card then you can start saving for a monitor to push it because until both use it and they manage to get a 4k tn panel OCed we've got a year or two.

Solandri · Nov 13, 2015

Retic3nt :

Unless you plan to game at 120 fps, the max data transfer rate of HDMI 2.0 (4k x 60Hz) doesn't really matter. 120 Hz TVs were made for one specific purpose - to eliminate judder in 24 fps movies. When you try to play 24 fps at 60 Hz, you end up having to display one frame for 2/60 sec, the next frame for 3/60 sec, the next for 2/60 sec, then 3/60 sec, etc. This results in things like smooth panning shots appearing to stutter, and smooth motion appearing to quiver.

120 Hz neatly solves this problem by just showing every frame for 5/120 sec, and the smooth shot remains smooth. To do this, whatever source you're using actually only sends a 4k x 24Hz signal to the TV, which is well within HDMI 2.0's capability.

240 Hz TVs do the same thing for 3D video shot at 24 fps, interleving the left and right images for 5/240 sec each.

iPen · Nov 13, 2015

Solandri :

I do plenty of gaming, too, so a 120Hz or more refresh rate on a TV is preferred.

I'm currently looking at the Samsung UN50JU6500. It's a 4K UHD TV but the refresh rate is unclear. People are saying it's 120Hz, but there is no data officially noted, which is peculiar. I suspect that it's 120 in terms of Samsung's "Motion Rate", which correlates with 60Hz, but I'm unsure. Do you or anyone else here have an idea on this TV?

Suzuki@1473780084@1473780163 · Nov 13, 2015

HDMI 2.0 isn't far away from the bandwidth of say DisplayPort 1.3, but in terms of Features, HDMI will be required, as it's specifically designed to be a A/V cable, rather than PC cable. The new standard HDMI 2.0a is just around the corner, which will allow High Dynamic Range, among other things, for TV's capable of delivering High Dynamic Range. This is going to be what's going to make people want to buy UHD displays, the resolution is actually irrelevant at such small sizes such as 55-65", for a typical living room environment. However, the difference in color, and detail, will be massive, in comparison.

A common misconception is that if a TV is 120 Hz, 240 Hz, or 480 Hz, that means that the displays are capable of those refresh rates internally. They still only accept a 60 Hz signal, it's how they are designed, regardless of bandwidth. A 120 Hz TV is certainly great for movies, as majority of them have a built in 24p mode, which allows movies to be displayed without the use of telecine (3:2 pulldown). Instead, each frame is displayed 5 times, meaning all that's changing is that the stutter during slow motion is now smooth, unless the camera op made a mistake and it was included in the movie of course.

When it comes to your "Samsung is at the top when it comes to the highest quality, and that LG is a close second", keep in mind that you can't compare the two. LG is using IPS-LCD's, while Samsung (mostly) use VA-LCD's.

IPS = Better color accuracy, near perfect viewing angles, poor contrast -- IPS is not ideal for movies or games, whatsoever. However, they are preferred in the movie industry (or used to, they now use OLED monitors), for color accurate work.

VA = Slightly worse color accuracy, slightly worse viewing angles, excellent contrast -- VA is ideal for movies and games, but not color sensitive work, as mentioned above.

Also, when it comes to UHD TV's (they're not 4k, that's the cinema standard), you have to look at features rather than specs. The specs tell us nothing, when it comes to picture quality. To answer your question, the UN50JU6500 is a 60 Hz native TV, and it doesn't have 24p support, because of it, so I would personally not buy it. However, the UN50JU7100 is a 120 Hz native UHD TV.

A quick tip for you, if a UHD TV offers 3D (or FHD too for that matter), then it's at least using a 120 Hz panel, as that's a requirement for 3D, and cannot be lower. Before buying, I would look into the new High Dynamic Range spec, and make sure the TV you'll be buying is either going to be updated to support this higher spec, or if you shouldn't buy it, if it happens to be a feature you're looking for.

All the best!

iPen · Nov 13, 2015

Suzuki@1473780084@1473780163 :

HDMI 2.0 isn't far away from the bandwidth of say DisplayPort 1.3, but in terms of Features, HDMI will be required, as it's specifically designed to be a A/V cable, rather than PC cable. The new standard HDMI 2.0a is just around the corner, which will allow High Dynamic Range, among other things, for TV's capable of delivering High Dynamic Range. This is going to be what's going to make people want to buy UHD displays, the resolution is actually irrelevant at such small sizes such as 55-65", for a typical living room environment. However, the difference in color, and detail, will be massive, in comparison.

A common misconception is that if a TV is 120 Hz, 240 Hz, or 480 Hz, that means that the displays are capable of those refresh rates internally. They still only accept a 60 Hz signal, it's how they are designed, regardless of bandwidth. A 120 Hz TV is certainly great for movies, as majority of them have a built in 24p mode, which allows movies to be displayed without the use of telecine (3:2 pulldown). Instead, each frame is displayed 5 times, meaning all that's changing is that the stutter during slow motion is now smooth, unless the camera op made a mistake and it was included in the movie of course.

When it comes to your "Samsung is at the top when it comes to the highest quality, and that LG is a close second", keep in mind that you can't compare the two. LG is using IPS-LCD's, while Samsung (mostly) use VA-LCD's.

IPS = Better color accuracy, near perfect viewing angles, poor contrast -- IPS is not ideal for movies or games, whatsoever. However, they are preferred in the movie industry (or used to, they now use OLED monitors), for color accurate work.

VA = Slightly worse color accuracy, slightly worse viewing angles, excellent contrast -- VA is ideal for movies and games, but not color sensitive work, as mentioned above.

Also, when it comes to UHD TV's (they're not 4k, that's the cinema standard), you have to look at features rather than specs. The specs tell us nothing, when it comes to picture quality. To answer your question, the UN50JU6500 is a 60 Hz native TV, and it doesn't have 24p support, because of it, so I would personally not buy it. However, the UN50JU7100 is a 120 Hz native UHD TV.

A quick tip for you, if a UHD TV offers 3D (or FHD too for that matter), then it's at least using a 120 Hz panel, as that's a requirement for 3D, and cannot be lower. Before buying, I would look into the new High Dynamic Range spec, and make sure the TV you'll be buying is either going to be updated to support this higher spec, or if you shouldn't buy it, if it happens to be a feature you're looking for.

All the best!

Thanks so much for all of that info. I'll have to re-read all of this to make sure I've really absorbed the info.

And, do you or anyone else think that I should wait until Black Friday or Cyber Monday to purchase my TV?

Will it be cheaper then, afterwards, or will they not market it any cheaper for the specific TV I'm looking at?

And, is there an LG "equivalent" to the Samsung UN50JU7100 TV?

Suzuki@1473780084@1473780163 · Nov 13, 2015

Hello, now is a very good time to purchase a new TV, infact, it's almost too late soon. They will be replacing old models with newer models, so prices are going to go up, even more so if they decide to make HDR a universal standard across brands, though that line is still blurred, and I don't have any inside information, just my educated guess. If you can get some good deals during Black Friday, I would totally try to buy one then. Here's a good site for spotting good deals, updated weekly I believe.

http

/www.heronfidelity.com/blog/deal-alert.html

iPen · Nov 14, 2015

Suzuki@1473780084@1473780163 :

Ok, I really hope I get some good Black Friday deals online.

And, do you know if there's any validity to this infographic on the times to buy everything? I don't think that Feb is better than Black Friday, but maybe Feb is the "deadline" (?).

The%20Best%20Time%20to%20Buy%20Anything%20in%202014_zps8wl1t8ar.jpg

Suzuki@1473780084@1473780163 · Nov 14, 2015

Hello,

That really depends on what TV you're going to buy. The features is what's pushing the price up. However, the lowest a TV will ever get in price, is in September, which is when new models come out. What stores usually do is increase the price for christmas, and then have a sale so it looks like you're saving a lot of money. Black friday is decent, because they do want people to upgrade, however, definitely not the lowest price on the GOOD models, rather the decent or bad ones instead. Towards the end of January is good to by a TV as well. In US, it's very common because that's when Football season ends, and people are out looking for a new TV, weird, but that's the way it is. December is ok too, it really depends because not all stores sell their products as cheap as a different store would.

Take a look at the link I posted above´.

iPen · Nov 14, 2015

Suzuki@1473780084@1473780163 :

Nice inside information

I guess Black Friday and end of Jan are my best bets, but I'll keep an eye out for deals on that website you posted.

And, the phenomenon about football and TV is interesting - you'd think that people would buy TVs to watch the game in higher quality. But, people are probably already thinking that and the manufacturers anticipate that, so they don't discount it until after the Super Bowl which so happens to coincide very closely and overlap during the holidays so prices can remain high until around late Jan/early Feb when demand dwindles down.

Suzuki@1473780084@1473780163 · Nov 14, 2015

Anyways, regardless of price and brand, you still need to make your decision whether or not you want to go with a VA panel, or an IPS. I made a short explanation of both, above in my longer post.

iPen · Nov 14, 2015

Suzuki@1473780084@1473780163 :

Yeah, it sounds like for movies and games, I should go with VA so Samsung sounds like the better choice. And it's only slightly worse at viewing angles and color accuracy so I can live with that.

If I can't find a native 120Hz refresh rate at the price I'm looking for with the minimum features, my default is to get a *3D TV, since it guarantees the 120Hz minimum native refresh rate like you say. And the HDR sounds like it's the next evolution up from 4K TV, at least from what I've heard online - but, the price difference seems staggering. So, I think I'll go with what you said and look into an update/upgrade-able TV for future purposes.

The Samsung UN50JU7100 TV you mentioned seems to fill that requisite, although I'm not sure it's HDR "upgrade-able". I know it says it's not HDR capable via it's HDMI 2.0 port - *can I one day in the future add an adapter or send it in to a tech to upgrade the port to HDMI 2.0a to make it HDR capable? I do place emphasis on this because I like to purchase things that will last as long as they can, while being of very high or satisfactory quality for one of the best bangs for your buck - my current TV was purchased back around 2008 or so, but it's now getting to the point where it's not directly compatible with my PC's upgraded parts, and the LCD TV takes several seconds to turn on.

That said, if the port itself is upgrade-able via replacement with an HDMI 2.0a (or similar/better HDR capable port) or with an adapter, then one other UHDTV I'm considering is the Samsung UN50HU6900. I don't think I'll really be using 3D capable TVs, so it's no bother to me that it doesn't come with that feature. Please correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that the UN50HU6900 has a 120Hz native refresh rate (and Samsung's 240 Motion Rate), 4K, VA panel, 50"... I'm just unsure about the HDR part. Also, I only bring up the UN50HU6900 because it's on sale ($799, not refurbished and brand new!) and is a cheaper alternative so that I can save a couple hundred bucks or so lol. But, I'm wondering why it's so cheap when the other 50" TVs with the same/similar features are more expensive...

FYI, I only include the bold text above to highlight my questions and where I'm lost, since they may get lost in everything that I wrote (I've learned a lot from you and others on this thread, and I'll be learning a lot more!), so please don't think I'm yelling or anything like that lol.

Suzuki@1473780084@1473780163 · Nov 14, 2015

Hello,

My explanations are not in perfect English, so please tell me if there is something else you didn't understand. I try to keep everything in layman's terms.

The UN50HU6900 is a 2014 model.

Quote from Samsung:

"HDMI 2.0a will be supported on all 2015 SUHD and UHD TV models via the firmware update and does not require new HDMI cables."

It appears that Samsung's 2015 UHD TV lineup already supports HDR internally, however, the free firmware update will be required for use with external devices (UHD blu-ray). Internally means that streaming services capable of delivering HDR, will be properly displayed in HDR without the firmware update.

Here are the 2015 models: http

/www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/by-brand/samsung

Hopefully that answered your questions!

iPen · Nov 14, 2015

Suzuki@1473780084@1473780163 :

Thanks for that list, it's very helpful!

What if the UN50HU6900 model is physically manufactured in 2015 despite being a 2014 model - do you know if Samsung will upgrade all previous year units to 2015 HDR standards if they're made in 2015? Unless, of course, all 2014 models are only manufactured in the same model year or earlier, so the UN50HU6900 would never have been made in 2015...

BTW, your English is excellent - it's much better than many other native English speakers and their grammar on various forums.

Suzuki@1473780084@1473780163 · Nov 14, 2015

Hello,

You should ask Samsung yourself, here, under Live Chat: http

/www.samsung.com/us/support/contact

Solandri · Nov 14, 2015

Suzuki@1473780084@1473780163 :

Er, no. IPS is a LG trademark, and so only LG screens can be marketed as "IPS". Since it was first on the market though, the term IPS has become a catchphrase for all similar technologies. There are actually four technologies which do pretty much the same thing, each trademarked by their respective manufacturer.

LG = IPS
Samsung = PLS
AUO = AHVA
Sharp = IGZO

The weaknesses I've seen are: IPS has poor contrast along diagonal viewing angles. Not really a problem for monitors, but a big deal on phones and tablets. If you display a black screen, put the phone flat on a table, and rotate it, the black becomes a light grey at 45 degree angles (i.e. corner of the screen pointed at you). I've only seen two PLS screens and they were really nice in terms of color and uniformity. I believe (but don't quote me) that it has slower response speed though. AHVA does a fine job with colors (one of the top-rated laptop color screens is a AUO AHVA panel - I'm using it right now). But I've noticed they suffer a lot more backlight bleed. Not sure if this is an inherent problem with the technology or just poor quality control by AUO. IGZO is the newest one and uses a different chemistry than traditional LCD panels which results in brighter, more colorful images with less power. Sharp is actually just the first licencee of the technology, and Samsung just recently licensed it as well. The only drawback I've heard is that color uniformity is not as consistent with changes in viewing angles. It's not as bad as with TN panels, but there's a slight dropoff in brightness and saturation outside about 30-60 degrees.

If I were doing graphics work, I'd probably go with Samsung PLS screens. But all of them work fine if you know their limitations and take steps to minimize their influence on color and gamma.

Suzuki@1473780084@1473780163 · Nov 14, 2015

Samsung use VA panels in their TV's, not PLS, which is indeed similar but not quite IPS. AHVA... The VA in that doesn't mean the same thing it does in (M)VA for instance, which is an updated version of the older VA panels.

AHVA, IPS, PLS are very similar. There are a ton of LG panel's in different brands TV's (OLED is LG, Samsung will use LG panels, and so are other brands), because not everyone make their own panels. A good example since you brought up the monitor market, would be BenQ, which makes panels for Dell, for instance. Or a better example, the top rated gaming monitor's are using AUO panels as well, same exact panel is used in MG279Q, XB270HU, and the new PG279Q.

This however, is strictly about TV's, so adding monitors into the mix is only going to make things confusing.

Samsung = VA
LG = IPS

That's only what we're comparing in this thread. We're comparing simple things such as contrast ratio, and color reproduction, no need to make this super complicated.

All the best!

iPen · Nov 14, 2015

Suzuki@1473780084@1473780163 :

I called Samsung's tech support and they told me that the UN50HU6900 is HDR capable!

However, the tech person didn't seem to know much about the current technology and had to look everything up.

So I asked the rep to double check and confirmed that the 2014 UN50HU6900 is HDR capable, and that I would only need to get a new HDMI cable. I'm guessing that 2014 was the transition year for Samsung to begin producing HDR so that eventually all of their TVs would be HDR capable (as it is the case in this 2015 year). However, she sounded very unsure.

And, perhaps this is not reassuring - according to this Forbes article, I believe it says that the HU6900 model is not HDR capable:

Source: http/www.forbes.com/sites/johnarcher/2015/08/05/big-4k-uhd-promotion-dont-buy-a-samsung-suhd-tv-until-august-16th/

"...a list of all the current VIDITY-capable TVs. They are: All Samsung 2014 HU series of 4K UHD TVs (HU6830, HU6900, HU7200, HU7250, HU8500, HU8550, HU8700, HU9000); all Samsung’s 2015 JU series of 4K UHD TVs (JU6400, JU6500, JU6700, and JU7500); and all Samsung’s 2015 SUHD TVs (JS7000, JS8500, JS9000, JS9100, and JS9500). Though just to be 100% clear, only the JS9000 and higher models from 2015 benefit from the My Passport Cinema promotion. Also, please note that the two HDR-enabled movies only play in HD on the 2014 models."

Recommend a 4K 120Hz+ TV Please

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